Penal Substitution Theory

[Campion]

God's wrath does not need appeasing. Are you guys pagans or what???? You don't need to toss a virgin into a volcano to appease and satisfy God's wrath.

God does not overcome evil by demanding more evil. Repentance is the answer and the true and perfect destruction of sin.

 

[JesusFan]

God's wrath does not need appeasing. Are you guys pagans or what???? You don't need to toss a virgin into a volcano to appease and satisfy God's wrath.

God does not overcome evil by demanding more evil. Repentance is the answer and the true and perfect destruction of sin.

So the Bible is wrong when it stated plainly that God has reserved up His wrath towards the ungodly and sinners?

 

[Campion]

So the Bible is wrong when it stated plainly that God has reserved up His wrath towards the ungodly and sinners?

The Bible doesn't say God stores up his wrath and then unleashes it in a fit of rage. That is a pagan notion of God. The pagan God gets so full of rage and wrath that we must toss a virgin damsel into a volcano to appease him. Good grief what a warped notion of God!

God does not demand more evil in order to overcome evil. Evil is destroyed by repentance.

 

[JonC]

Thanks for responding but did you really answer?
The psa.is what is taught in the bible.
For to to say all judgment is given to the Son...does not answer the questions asked.
Did Jesus judge himself?
We know He went willingly to the cross in Submission to the will of the Father.
However...you know that to admit He went as the Divine substitute for the elect children heb2 ...is to demonstrate PSA...the just for the unjust.
God judged the incarnate Son.
He did not judge himself
The ungodly world was the instrument used by God to judge the sins of the elect.
It was not Jesus answering to the world.
It is the same as Jesus undergoing John's baptism...He had nothing to
repent of but as our mediator He said let it be so on.our behalf.

I agree with you insofar what is actually written in the Bible.

Jesus does not need to Judge Himself.
God did not judge the incarnate Son (He is God, and He is without sin).
I will say that He is our Divine representative.
I agree that the ungodly world was the instrument used by God to bring about our redemption.

Do you believe that God's wrath is man beating you and nailing you to a cross?

 

[JonC]

How was the wrath of the father towards sinners actually propitiated?

The wrath is "the wrath to come". Christ IS the Propitiation (in Him there is no condemnation).

Why do you believe God must punish bad actions regardless of who committed those actions?

I.e., why do you believe it is just to punish one child for the actions of another as long as you punish somebody?

The "justice" of Penal Substitution Theory would not be considered today (just as it was NOT for the first 1500 of Christianity) if it were not for a secular philosophy held by some involved in the Reformation.

And if not attempting to reform paganism it wouldn't even have been considered then.

 

[Aaron]

The sin offering is not only killed, but taken by the priest outside the camp and burned. The Spirit was careful to note the dung, which was in the body of the sin offering, which represents the uncleanness and stench of sin. Men did not judge our sins in Christ's body, God did.

Question, what was the source of the fire?

Ahem.

 

[JonC]

How is the wrath of God due towards those whno break his law appeased and propitiated for then?

Through His Servant, in Whom He is well pleased.

The curse of death that entered through the transgression of Adam is a physical death. This is what has been held until the Roman Catholic Church. God is immutable. All flesh must die. It is appointed man once to die and then the judgment. All judgment has been given to the Son. This is the judgment: The Light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than light.

No need to reach back and reform Thomas Aquinas. Just stick with Scripture.

 

[JonC]

So the Bible is wrong when it stated plainly that God has reserved up His wrath towards the ungodly and sinners?

Romans : - But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

Let Scripture, not your theories, interpret Scripture.

 

[JesusFan]

The Bible doesn't say God stores up his wrath and then unleashes it in a fit of rage. That is a pagan notion of God. The pagan God gets so full of rage and wrath that we must toss a virgin damsel into a volcano to appease him. Good grief what a warped notion of God!

God does not demand more evil in order to overcome evil. Evil is destroyed by repentance.

God does not go into a hissy fit, as he is Holy, and His anger and wrath towards sin always is according to his divine attributes! God cannot just say you are forgiven, as there MUST be the price paid for sinning!

 

[JesusFan]

The wrath is "the wrath to come". Christ IS the Propitiation (in Him there is no condemnation).

Why do you believe God must punish bad actions regardless of who committed those actions?

I.e., why do you believe it is just to punish one child for the actions of another as long as you punish somebody?

The "justice" of Penal Substitution Theory would not be considered today (just as it was NOT for the first 1500 of Christianity) if it were not for a secular philosophy held by some involved in the Reformation.

And if not attempting to reform paganism it wouldn't even have been considered then.

What you call punishment is actually God holiness on display!

 

[JesusFan]

Through His Servant, in Whom He is well pleased.

The curse of death that entered through the transgression of Adam is a physical death. This is what has been held until the Roman Catholic Church. God is immutable. All flesh must die. It is appointed man once to die and then the judgment. All judgment has been given to the Son. This is the judgment: The Light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than light.

No need to reach back and reform Thomas Aquinas. Just stick with Scripture.

We are, as there is far more then just the physical death of Jesus that atoned for my sins, as He had to experience on the Cross as my sin bearer what I would have to bear in hell if He did not pay for those sins of mine!

 

[JesusFan]

Romans : - But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

Let Scripture, not your theories, interpret Scripture.

The righteousness judgement of God against our due and deserved sinning was for the redeemed on that Cross of Christ!

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning

This thread will be closed no sooner than
1155 pm EST / 855 pm PST

 

[Campion]

God does not go into a hissy fit, as he is Holy, and His anger and wrath towards sin always is according to his divine attributes! God cannot just say you are forgiven, as there MUST be the price paid for sinning!

Really? What did Jesus say here below? From Luke 7…

44Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair.45You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet. 46You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. 47Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little.” 48And he said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” 49Then those who were at table with him began to say amongh themselves, “Who is this, who even forgives sins?”50And he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

God just told her her sins are forgiven. No damsel had to be tossed into a volcano either for him to say that.

 

[JonC]

What you call punishment is actually God holiness on display!

Except Scripture says the complete opposite.

We are, as there is far more then just the physical death of Jesus that atoned for my sins, as He had to experience on the Cross as my sin bearer what I would have to bear in hell if He did not pay for those sins of mine!

Not according to Scripture.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Three times in the Book of Acts (5:30; 10:39; 13:29) and also in 1 Peter 2:24, the Lord Jesus is described as hanging on a 'tree' (Greek xulon) rather than on a cross (Greek stauron). The reason would appear to be to evoke Deuteronomy 21:22-23, 'for he who is hanged [on a tree] is accursed of God.' So why should Jesus, the sinless Messiah be cursed by God?

The reason is given in Galatians 10-13. 'For as many who are under the law [literally, 'of the works of the law'] are under the curse; for it is written, "cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them" (quoting Deut. 27:26). But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for, "the just shall live by faith" (Hab. 2:4). Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them" (Lev. 18:5). Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree."'

It is well known that the churches in Galatia had come under the influence of false teachers known as the 'Judaizers,' who taught that Gentile converts to Christ needed to be circumcised (c.f. Acts 15:1). Paul warned in v.10 that these people 'who are of the works of the law' are under a curse. Why are they under a curse? Because of Deuteronomy 27:26. No one can keep God's law adequately and so fall under God's curse. The law requires perfect obedience which sinful man cannot achieve. Given that universal human predicament, Galatians 3:10 constitutes a clear statement of the Doctrine of Penal Substitution. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. Christ suffered the curse in our place and we are thereby redeemed.

One last point: the curse applies to all men and women, not just the Judaizers as certain N.P.P. supporters have suggested. Paul writes, Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law......' He therefore includes himself and the Galatian Christians (who had not yet been circumcised - Galatians 5:2). The law of God condemns us all, and Christ redeems all who believe, both Jew and Gentile.
[Much of the above is a condensation of Pierced for our Transgressions by Ovey, Jeffrey and Sach, IVP, 2007]

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Many times on this board I have given the following definition of the Doctrine of Penal Substitution:
'The Doctrine of Penal Substitution states that God gave Himself in the person of His Son to suffer instead of us the death punishment and curse due to fallen humanity as the penalty for sin.'

'This summary can be expanded to give some sense of how the doctrine connects with other important Biblical themes.
God the Father gave His Son to save rebellious, God-hating people, knowing that He would be despised and rejected by those He had made, that He would be a Man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. He spared sinful people from condemnation, death and punishment, but He did not spare His own beloved Son, with whom He was well pleased.
God the Son gave Himself, willingly undertaking the task appointed for Him by His Father. He veiled His glory in a human body, experienced every temptation we face without succumbing to any, and lived a perfect human life. Yet He took our sin and guilt upon Himself and died a cursed death, suffering in His human nature the infinite torment of the wrath and fury of His Father. After three days He was vindicated in His resurrection before being exalted to His heavenly throne. From there He rules His kingdom, awaiting the day of His glorious appearing when every eye shall see Him, every knee bow before Him, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
God the Holy Spirit, having been sent by the father and the Son, now works in our hearts through the proclamation of the Gospel to convict us of sin, righteousness and judgment to come., to draw us to Christ in repentance and faith, and to unite us to Christ that we may share in every blessing He has won for us.
God the Holy Trinity thus turned away His own righteous wrath against sinful humanity; endured and exhausted the curse of the law that stood against us; cleansed us of our sin and clothed us in Christ's righteousness; ransomed us from our slavery to sin, the world and the devil by paying our debt, cancelling the devil's power of accusation against us and liberating us to live new lives empowered by the Spirit; triumphed over all evil powers by punishing evil in the Person of His Son; and reconciled us with Himself by removing the barrier of sin and enmity between us; in order that we may stand blameless and forgiven in His glorious presence , credited with the perfect righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ, gazing upon His face for all eternity.
God vindicated His truthfulness by remaining faithful to His promise that sin will be punished; He manifested His justice by punishing sin and acquitting the righteous; He glorified His name by exalting His Son and placing all things under His feet; and He demonstrated His love by dying for sinners and reconciling to Himself those who were once His enemies.'
[From 'Pierced for our Transgressions' by Ovey, Jeffrey and Sach]

 

[JonC]

Many times on this board I have given the following definition of the Doctrine of Penal Substitution:
'The Doctrine of Penal Substitution states that God gave Himself in the person of His Son to suffer instead of us the death punishment and curse due to fallen humanity as the penalty for sin.'

'This summary can be expanded to give some sense of how the doctrine connects with other important Biblical themes.
God the Father gave His Son to save rebellious, God-hating people, knowing that He would be despised and rejected by those He had made, that He would be a Man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. He spared sinful people from condemnation, death and punishment, but He did not spare His own beloved Son, with whom He was well pleased.
God the Son gave Himself, willingly undertaking the task appointed for Him by His Father. He veiled His glory in a human body, experienced every temptation we face without succumbing to any, and lived a perfect human life. Yet He took our sin and guilt upon Himself and died a cursed death, suffering in His human nature the infinite torment of the wrath and fury of His Father. After three days He was vindicated in His resurrection before being exalted to His heavenly throne. From there He rules His kingdom, awaiting the day of His glorious appearing when every eye shall see Him, every knee bow before Him, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
God the Holy Spirit, having been sent by the father and the Son, now works in our hearts through the proclamation of the Gospel to convict us of sin, righteousness and judgment to come., to draw us to Christ in repentance and faith, and to unite us to Christ that we may share in every blessing He has won for us.
God the Holy Trinity thus turned away His own righteous wrath against sinful humanity; endured and exhausted the curse of the law that stood against us; cleansed us of our sin and clothed us in Christ's righteousness; ransomed us from our slavery to sin, the world and the devil by paying our debt, cancelling the devil's power of accusation against us and liberating us to live new lives empowered by the Spirit; triumphed over all evil powers by punishing evil in the Person of His Son; and reconciled us with Himself by removing the barrier of sin and enmity between us; in order that we may stand blameless and forgiven in His glorious presence , credited with the perfect righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ, gazing upon His face for all eternity.
God vindicated His truthfulness by remaining faithful to His promise that sin will be punished; He manifested His justice by punishing sin and acquitting the righteous; He glorified His name by exalting His Son and placing all things under His feet; and He demonstrated His love by dying for sinners and reconciling to Himself those who were once His enemies.'
[From 'Pierced for our Transgressions' by Ovey, Jeffrey and Sach]

Interesting. The Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement also states that God gave Himself in the person of His Son to suffer instead of us the death punishment and curse due to fallen humanity as the penalty for sin.

Guess it was not "PS Lite" after all.

Why do you choose to believe the doctrine or theory of Penal Substitution rather than strictly what is written in Scripture (that is, what is the appeal)?

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

I agree with you insofar what is actually written in the Bible.
Jesus does not need to Judge Himself.

Actually you do not agree, you are trying to sound as if you do, but you are avoiding the PSA..

God did not judge the incarnate Son (He is God, and He is without sin).

This is a denial of the work of Jesus on the cross. Of course He was sinless, He had to be to take our sin upon Himself. As our sin bearer He was judged at the cross.

I will say that He is our Divine representative.
I agree that the ungodly world was the instrument used by God to bring about our redemption.

No..the ungodly world does not bring about our redemption... Jesus substitutionary atonement does however

Do you believe that God's wrath is man beating you and nailing you to a cross?

No.. Gods wrath is what Jesus took upon Himself in my place.
The ungodly with no propitiation will be beaten with many stripes, be cast into outer darkness, with weeping and gnashing of teeth, they will be tormented in flames as scripture declares.
Jesus experienced my judgement in His Incarnate body on the cross.
You avoid this reality with your novel deas, but the truth remains..PSA.

 

[JonC]

JonC,



Actually you do not agree, you are trying to sound as if you do, but you are avoiding the PSA..



This is a denial of the work of Jesus on the cross. Of course He was sinless, He had to be to take our sin upon Himself. As our sin bearer He was judged at the cross.


No..the ungodly world does not bring about our redemption... Jesus substitutionary atonement does however


No.. Gods wrath is what Jesus took upon Himself in my place.
The ungodly with no propitiation will be beaten with many stripes, be cast into outer darkness, with weeping and gnashing of teeth, they will be tormented in flames as scripture declares.
Jesus experienced my judgement in His Incarnate body on the cross.
You avoid this reality with your novel deas, but the truth remains..PSA.

How do you call traditional Christianity a "novel idea"??!!!

You do not have to agree with my view. I also saw the early church as misguided in many ways. It makes sense that we learn more over time.

But to simply dismiss the early church position on the Atonement as a "novel idea" is kinda silly. If anything, the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement is "novel" (relatively speaking).

But that in itself does not make it wrong.

What makes Penal Substitution Theory wrong is not even its additions to God's Word. What makes it wrong is the Theory is contrary to what is written in Scripture.

I am not avoiding Penal Substitution Theory. I once believed it. Thankfully God led me out of the darkness of man-made doctrine and into the light of His Word. Believe it or not, Scripture really is sufficient.