Penal Substitution Theory

[JonC]

Having studied this thread for some time in order to understand the outrageous positions taken by JonC and agedman, I can no longer remain silent.

I thank God for such stalwarts in the faith as iconoclast, Martin M and Aaron.

IMHO, I believe such statements as “Christ did not die to appease God. Christ died to appease the World” are not only God-dishonoring, but anti-Christian.

The world has never needed appeasing.

Appeasing what? Its thirst for blood? Its hatred of that which is good and holy?

It is our holy, righteous and just God who needs appeasing.

His divine and holy justice requires/demands satisfaction.

Christ alone satisfied, appeased, propitiated the vindicatory justice of God.

He did so through his active and passive obedience, from childhood through Calvary.

The OT animal sacrifices were shadows of Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross.

They were not sacrificed to appease the ‘World.’ They were continually sacrificed to temporarily appease the wrath of a holy God whose hatred of sin is so pronounced that He will not bestow forgiveness unless an appropriate punishment is rendered as payment for the sin.

Christ, the punished, was that payment. The bloody sacrifice of sinless man who is also infinite God was the only possible way to pay the infinite sin debt of God’s Elect.

Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.

There is a sin debt owed God. It is not owed the world.

Our sin debt was paid in full by the blood of innocent Christ.

Luke 7 teaches the Parable of the Two Debtors. God is the creditor who can forgive debts, if He chooses. His forgiveness requires that Christ, our surety, pays in full our debt which, once satisfied, relieves us of payment.

But it is more complicated when the payment is made in blood, rather than currency. Blood signifies punishment by a torturous death.

It also signifies the unspeakable punishment due those who reject Christ as Lord and Savior.

To not believe the penal aspect of Christ’s bloody sacrifice is to elevate your wisdom above God’s.

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

The interesting thing is the first millenia and a half of the Christian Church did not believe God punished His Son instead of punishing us.

It is interesting because you take a relatively new minority theory and insist it is essentially the cornerstone of Christianity.

But you do this on error.

Nobody has said a sin debt is owed the world.

That said, please back up your claim.

What passage(s) are you referencing that state (without your theory....I'm speaking of God's Word, not any additions....i.e. "What is written" and what is written again):

1. Christ paid our sin debt (note - we all agree the record of debt under the Law is canceled).

2. Jesus experienced God's wrath.

3. God punished Jesus instead of punishing us.

4. God is unable to forgive sins except He first (or by) punish sin.


You can claim all day long that @agedman and I reject Scripture, BUT the funny thing is our view is the actual written text of Scripture where yours is what you believe is taught but not recorded.

 

[JonC]

Again, the gospel message is what is written in the Bible - not some theory invented by man to explain what is written in the Bible.

Through Adam's transgression sin entered the World, and through sin, death. The human race was in bondage, a slave to sin and death (the flesh.....all flesh must perish).

The Messiah is foretold in that the seed of the Serpent would strike the seed of the woman, but He would crush the Serpent's head.

God gave Israel the Law. God's law showed man his sin. Men could not meet that standard of righteousness.

God implemented a sacrifice system, foreshadowing Redemption. Man would kill an animal, shed its blood. The offering pleased God. In His forbearance He passed over their sins until the New Covenant.

God loved the world by sending His Son. Christ shared in our infirmity, suffered under the bondage of this evil. This culminated in the World esteeming Christ as stricken by God and under the judgment of the World, under the curse, Christ suffered and died.

Christ was wrongly judged, and He suffered and died at the hands of wicked men, under the powers of the World. This is the powers God described as powers of darkness, principalities and evils that we also struggle against.

BUT this was the will of God. It pleased God to crush Him, to put Him to grief. This was God's predetermined plan, for through this Christ would see the fruit of His labor - that is, our redemption.

God forsook Christ to suffer and die under tge powers of the World. God vindicated Christ (not against Himself, but against the World) by raising Him on the third day - having gained victory, not against God but against Satan, freeing us from slavery - removing the sting of death

Christ is the Propitiation for the sin of mankind. He is the Mediator, the High Priest. All judgment is given Him. Sin will be judged, and the judgment is the Light has come but men rejected this Light. But there is no judgement in Christ.

 

[JonC]

So true. We also have the sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham, a type of the God the Father sacrificing His Son, Jesus.

We do....BUT this was Abraham sacrificing Isaac believing God would resurrect Isaac as God is faithful. Abraham was not a "type of God" but was representative of man....specifically a representative of Israel. This is the account in that his faith was reckoned as righteousness.

You are making the mistake of interpreting Scripture not with Scripture but through the lens of your own presuppositions.

 

[JonC]

Who kills the victim in the sacrifice?

Men by the will of God. It pleased God. But you are right, God did not inflicted death on the animals. Man did for their sins.

 

[Aaron]

Men by the will of God. It pleased God. But you are right, God did not inflicted death on the animals. Man did for their sins.

As you are wont to say, God uses men. Men were merely the knife.

 

[Aaron]

LOL. Moses gots you by the boys.

 

[JonC]

As you are wont to say, God uses men. Men were merely the knife.

Yes. Christ died at the hand of men by the will of God. Men did not pour upon Christ's God's wrath but their own.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

​

Was Christ the pure sacrifice or did sin present a defect in Him?



Concerning our Lord quoting Zachariah:

7Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd,
against the man who is My Companion,
declares the LORD of Hosts.​

Strike the Shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered,
and I will turn My hand against the little ones.
8And in all the land, declares the LORD,
two-thirds will be cut off and perish,
but a third will be left in it.​

9This third I will bring through the fire;
I will refine them like silver
and test them like gold.
They will call on My name,
and I will answer them.
I will say, ‘They are My people,’
and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’ ”
​

You do know God is stating that when the shepherd is struck the scattering commenced.



It does NOT say that God struck the shepherd.

The reason that I used our Lord's quotation from this text in Matthew 16:31 was to avoid getting bogged down in a discussion of Zechariah. The Lord Jesus clearly identifies Himself as the Shepherd and God the Father as the one who strikes Him.

 

[Aaron]

Yes. Christ died at the hand of men by the will of God. Men did not pour upon Christ's God's wrath but their own.

The sin offering is not only killed, but taken by the priest outside the camp and burned. The Spirit was careful to note the dung, which was in the body of the sin offering, which represents the uncleanness and stench of sin. Men did not judge our sins in Christ's body, God did.

Question, what was the source of the fire?

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes. Christ died at the hand of men by the will of God. Men did not pour upon Christ's God's wrath but their own.

So John...did you expect God the Father to appear and slay Jesus with a knife?
You are suggesting somehow that the ungodly world were upset at Jesus for law keeping?
Jesus propitiated the wrath of the ungodly world?
Jesus did not come to redeem them that were.under the law?Gal4:4?
The elect breaking the law of God goes unpunished?
God is just in punishing the sin of the ungodly eternally..but looks the other way when the elect sin?
No need for justice to be satisfied?

 

[JonC]

So John...did you expect God the Father to appear and slay Jesus with a knife?
You are suggesting somehow that the ungodly world were upset at Jesus for law keeping?
Jesus propitiated the wrath of the ungodly world?
Jesus did not come to redeem them that were.under the law?Gal4:4?
The elect breaking the law of God goes unpunished?
God is just in punishing the sin of the ungodly eternally..but looks the other way when the elect sin?
No need for justice to be satisfied?

Uh....no. That is not even close to what I have said.

It was God's will that Christ die at the hands of evil men. If you are suggesting that God used those men to crucify Christ then I absolutely agree. Christ was obedient even to death on a cross. I am not sure that I would call men beating somebody and killing them "God's wrath". If it is, then God poured His wrath out on a lot of Christians.

Chiust IS THE Propitiation for the discussion of the World. Through Him we escape the wrath to come (God's wrath....not the World's wrath).

God does not look the other way. All judgment is given to the Son. Justice IS satisfied.

We disagree.

I have made my points and you your points.

You cannot say my view is unbiblical in the sense it is not in the Bible (what I believe is actually in the text of Scripture).

But I can say your view is not in the Bible (not in the text of Scripture). You say it is what Scripture teaches, and I understand that. But I strongly believe that doctrines essential to our faith are actually recorded in the text of God's Word.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I have now given two very clear Biblical evidences for the Doctrine of Penal Substitution.
The first of these is Romans 3:25-26. God set Christ forth as a propitiation for our sins. A propitiation is a sacrifice that turns away wrath. It was not wicked men who set Christ forth but God Himself. The text is important because it gives the reason why God did this: 'that He might be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.' God's justice must be satisfied and in the Person of the Lord Jesus He Himself provided that satisfaction for the sins of His errant people.. 'In giving His Son, God was giving HImself' (John Stott).

The second Biblical evidence is Isaiah 53, especially verse 10. 'Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him. He has put Him to grief.' The NASB is really no different: 'But the LORD was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief.' And that bruising or crushing was for our benefit, and by it our sins are atoned for. 'But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities . The chastisement for our peace was upon Him and by His stripes we are healed.'

A third Biblical evidence is Galatians 3:11-13. I will deal with this, God willing, later today.

 

[Iconoclast]

Uh....no. That is not even close to what I have said.

It was God's will that Christ die at the hands of evil men. If you are suggesting that God used those men to crucify Christ then I absolutely agree. Christ was obedient even to death on a cross. I am not sure that I would call men beating somebody and killing them "God's wrath". If it is, then God poured His wrath out on a lot of Christians.

Chiust IS THE Propitiation for the discussion of the World. Through Him we escape the wrath to come (God's wrath....not the World's wrath).

God does not look the other way. All judgment is given to the Son. Justice IS satisfied.

We disagree.

I have made my points and you your points.

You cannot say my view is unbiblical in the sense it is not in the Bible (what I believe is actually in the text of Scripture).

But I can say your view is not in the Bible (not in the text of Scripture). You say it is what Scripture teaches, and I understand that. But I strongly believe that doctrines essential to our faith are actually recorded in the text of God's Word.

Thanks for responding but did you really answer?
The psa.is what is taught in the bible.
For to to say all judgment is given to the Son...does not answer the questions asked.
Did Jesus judge himself?
We know He went willingly to the cross in Submission to the will of the Father.
However...you know that to admit He went as the Divine substitute for the elect children heb2 ...is to demonstrate PSA...the just for the unjust.
God judged the incarnate Son.
He did not judge himself
The ungodly world was the instrument used by God to judge the sins of the elect.
It was not Jesus answering to the world.
It is the same as Jesus undergoing John's baptism...He had nothing to
repent of but as our mediator He said let it be so on.our behalf.

 

[Iconoclast]

I have now given two very clear Biblical evidences for the Doctrine of Penal Substitution.
The first of these is Romans 3:25-26. God set Christ forth as a propitiation for our sins. A propitiation is a sacrifice that turns away wrath. It was not wicked men who set Christ forth but God Himself. The text is important because it gives the reason why God did this: 'that He might be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.' God's justice must be satisfied and in the Person of the Lord Jesus He Himself provided that satisfaction for the sins of His errant people.. 'In giving His Son, God was giving HImself' (John Stott).

The second Biblical evidence is Isaiah 53, especially verse 10. 'Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him. He has put Him to grief.' The NASB is really no different: 'But the LORD was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief.' And that bruising or crushing was for our benefit, and by it our sins are atoned for. 'But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities . The chastisement for our peace was upon Him and by His stripes we are healed.'

A third Biblical evidence is Galatians 3:11-13. I will deal with this, God willing, later today.

Martin, Your presentation is biblical and solid step by step.
Any of these other ideas seek to avoid the law keeping of Jesus as our mediator and surety.

 

[JesusFan]

Martin, Your presentation is biblical and solid step by step.
Any of these other ideas seek to avoid the law keeping of Jesus as our mediator and surety.

seems that NT Wright has gained many followers now here concerning his take of the Atonement!

 

[JesusFan]

This is a denial of the cross of Christ as in the other threads.
Sin is against God...not the world.

Jon C postings Reads as if NT Wright and the NPP wrote it!

 

[JesusFan]

You are correct here as in the last thread.They seek to suggest God does not punish sin.they repeat that God did not have to be propitiated.

Which is denying the view of the reformation!

 

[JesusFan]

No, none of us have denied propitiation.

Some deny God has active wrath towards sin!

 

[JesusFan]

No. No Penal Substitution Theory at all. Just traditional Christianity (the faith delivered once to the saints).

Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd,
And against the man, My Associate,”
Declares the Lord of hosts. “Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered."

Yes, even the scattering was by God's will.

Are you shocked nothing takes God by surprise?

How was the wrath of the father towards sinners actually propitiated?

 

[JesusFan]

The interesting thing is the first millenia and a half of the Christian Church did not believe God punished His Son instead of punishing us.

It is interesting because you take a relatively new minority theory and insist it is essentially the cornerstone of Christianity.

But you do this on error.

Nobody has said a sin debt is owed the world.

That said, please back up your claim.

What passage(s) are you referencing that state (without your theory....I'm speaking of God's Word, not any additions....i.e. "What is written" and what is written again):

1. Christ paid our sin debt (note - we all agree the record of debt under the Law is canceled).

2. Jesus experienced God's wrath.

3. God punished Jesus instead of punishing us.

4. God is unable to forgive sins except He first (or by) punish sin.


You can claim all day long that @agedman and I reject Scripture, BUT the funny thing is our view is the actual written text of Scripture where yours is what you believe is taught but not recorded.

How is the wrath of God due towards those whno break his law appeased and propitiated for then?