Perfection

[BobRyan]

I do not believe that any will enter the New Heaven and New Earth in physical bodies, for this reason:

The old will be destroyed.

Even as the earth was destroyed in Noah's day...

2 Peter 3

3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:


Even so this present world will be destroyed.


7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Peter points to the destruction of the earth - but does not say that the saints do not have bodies in resurrected form.

In fact John is explicit in 1John 3 that we are going to be in a form similar to Christ. Christ was adamant in his appearances to the disciples after His resurrected that He had physical form.

Revelation 20

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Who are they, at the end of the tribulation, who "sit upon the thrones?"

This either refers to the Father and Son, or, the only other possibilty would be it is the dead in Christ who are already raised.

In 1Cor 6 Paul says that the saints of his day would sit in judgment - and judge angels (fallen angels I believe) and Rev 20 shows us that the saints do this work of judgment during the 1000 year millennium.

Matthew 19:28 (King James Version)

28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

This is another aspect to that judgment - during the millennium.

In Daniel 7 we see a very similar timeline - where Christ is given the kingdom and the saints inherit that kingdom - but only at the 2nd coming.

We have already seen in Revelation, that there are thrones in place, and those who sit on them.


Revelation 4

4And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

And just so you know, "seats" is the same word here as throne.

Rev 4 says nothing about judgment and it does not call the 24 elders "saints" or people from the earth at all. Rev 4 has "for living creatures" and Daniel 7 has "myriads and myriads" sitting in the courtroom of judgment - before the 2nd coming. It never says of what species those beings are - and certainly says nothing along the lines that they are from earth.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
There is only ONE chapter in all of scripture that specifically talks about the resurrection as being after the 1000 years - (Rev 20) and there we only see the dead raised and cast into the lake of fire.

All of the saints - both the living and the dead are taken to heaven when Christ returns as we see in 1Thess 4.

So what about the saints that are physically alive?

They are either glorified, or they continue to live on in physical bodies.

The living saints at the 1Thess 4 rapture are changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye (as Paul stated in 1Cor 15). Paul says at the end of 1Cor 15 "we shall not all sleep (die) but we shall all be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye".

This is when the living saints are glorified and then raptured up to heaven - and it is also when the dead in Christ are raised with incorruptible bodies and raptured up in the air along with the living saints to be with Christ - taken to heaven.

Originally Posted by BobRyan
The reason that the M.K saints have no need of this - is because 1Thess 4, Rev 20:4-5, John 14:1-4 are all taking about the same 2nd coming event where the saints are taken to heaven.

Thus no "insert" is needed for the text.

This is impossible.

The saints of Revalation 20:4 are they that die during the tribulation, and are made to live again at this time.

I believe they are glorified at this time, and are then included with the saints of Ch. 4.

You have included the Martyrs along with the other "dead in Christ" in 1Thess 4- calling it all the "first resurrection".

Thus even in your model the "first resurrection" includes all the dead in Christ - you just need it to be many different resurrections all called "first".

I agree that all the dead in Christ are in the First Resurrection - but I point out that it is really just one resurrection and that chronologically it starts the 1000 years. No such thing as "many firsts".

Then comes the Millennial reign.

At the end of this, the dead stand before the Great White Throne, and are cast into the lake of fire.

At this time, I believe that both the dead (are blotted from the book of life) and those who are alive (in Christ) receive their glorified bodies (suited for eternity).

The only place that speaks of the living saints going to be with Christ and being transformed is 1Thess 4 and 1Cor 15. Both of these texts place that event at the same point where the dead in Christ are raised to life.

It is much more straight forward to observe that John sees only two resurrections in the future -- the first and then the one that comes after the 1000 years. The resurrection of 1Thess 4 deals with all the dead in Christ and so also does the first resurrection of Rev 20. And at that same time according to 1Thess 4 and 1Cor 15 the living righteous are also taken up in the air to be with Christ.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
In Hebrews the "First covenant" is used two different ways. In Heb 8 it is used to illustrate the lost condition and to contrast that with the saved condition (New Covenant) where the lost are born-again with a new heart upon which the law is written, where they are adopted and taught by God.



But in Heb 9 the Old Covenant is symbolized by the OT system of worship. The earthly sanctuary.



True. The Bible tells us that Saul received a "New Heart".

David asks that the Holy Spirit not be TAKEN FROM - him due to his sin.

And Peter affirms that the "Spirit of Christ IN THEM" was testifying about the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow.

Notice that they of the Old Covenant looked forward to the completion that would come in Christ.

We, on this side of the Cross receive (v. 9) what they searched for (v.10), the grace that would come unto us v. 10).

Though they had the Spirit of Christ, they looked forward to the time when "the following glory" would appear (v. 11).

The first principles of the oracles of God testified in advance of the sufferings of Christ.

True - they received the promise - looking to the future.

We by faith look into the unnobservable past and "believe" that what they say happened actually did happen.

Both positions are a "by faith alone" position because none of us actually see in our day - Christ dying on the cross - or Christ ascending up to heaven.

It is one gospel in all ages.

And until the time comes when Christ returns and fulfills the John 14 promise - we all are "waiting".

This is the significance of perfection in the book of Hebrews.


1 Peter 1

9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

This is their "limited" understanding of the gospel.

They did not have "completion" nor did they understand how God would accomplish His plan of salvation.

Completion did not come until after Christ died on the Cross and was resurrected.

Christ argues the point at the end of Luke that ALL that the prophets predicted must take place. He chastises his own contemporaries for being "slow to believe all that the prophets said" Lk 24:25.

Christ presents the reverse picture. He argues that those inlightened by the Holy Spirit to see the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to FOLLOW - were far more informed and insightful than the plodding slow-to-believe contemporaries of Christ after the resurrection.

Even Paul is "tested" in Acts 17:11 to see IF what he claims about Christ is actually true - and the "test" is in the form of "studying the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by Paul - were so".

I am not arguing that Paul did not have even more added light - I am simply pointing out that the Bible gives us no room for 2nd-class salvation in the OT or 2nd class born-again saints in the OT as if that was "another gospel" method of salvation based on works and not needing the New Birth to be obedient to God.

Originally Posted by BobRyan
One Gospel.

One means of salvation.

One "new birth".

AMEN!

But I think we differ on when the new birth became possible.

Hebrews 11, in my estimation, makes it clear that the saints of old were not made perfect, nor could they be, without us.

Heb 11 is talking about their not being given the full promises of the Gospel in the form of a New Heavens and New Earth.

But Heb 11 INCLUDES those who were taken directly to heaven itself without dying (Enoch for example). It also includes Moses. These were men who were born again saints.

Noah spoke with God "face to face" Numbers 12.

Enoch was taken directly to heaven - as was Elijah.

There is no possibility of arguing that before the cross these men were all depraved lost sinners - who obeyed God without needing the new birth, without the law written on the heart, without the adoption of the New Covenant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
The same "Forever promise" of the Holy Spirit "in you" was given in the OT.

Is 59:21 "My Spirit which IS upon you and My Words which I HAVE put IN your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mout of your offsprings offsprings says the Lord - from NOW and FOREVER"

I would like to see the scriptural references.

There is only one means of salvation - the Gospel only works one way.

Sins must be forgiven.
The lost depraved soul must be born again (John 3)
Those alienated from God must be adopted back in to the family of God.

These promises ARE the core of the New Covenant - promised in both OT and NT.

This is the "ONE" Gospel fully functioning in both ages.

"They all drank the same spiritual drink.. drinking from a spiritual Rock, and that Rock was CHRIST". 1Cor 10:4

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Darrell C]

Hello Bob,

I am in agreement with most of what you have posted here, and will just present my opinion on where we may differ...and then, back to perfection.

True - they received the promise - looking to the future.

We by faith look into the unnobservable past and "believe" that what they say happened actually did happen.

Both positions are a "by faith alone" position because none of us actually see in our day - Christ dying on the cross - or Christ ascending up to heaven.

It is one gospel in all ages.

And until the time comes when Christ returns and fulfills the John 14 promise - we all are "waiting".

Christ argues the point at the end of Luke that ALL that the prophets predicted must take place. He chastises his own contemporaries for being "slow to believe all that the prophets said" Lk 24:25.

Christ presents the reverse picture. He argues that those inlightened by the Holy Spirit to see the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to FOLLOW - were far more informed and insightful than the plodding slow-to-believe contemporaries of Christ after the resurrection.

Even Paul is "tested" in Acts 17:11 to see IF what he claims about Christ is actually true - and the "test" is in the form of "studying the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by Paul - were so".

I am not arguing that Paul did not have even more added light - I am simply pointing out that the Bible gives us no room for 2nd-class salvation in the OT or 2nd class born-again saints in the OT as if that was "another gospel" method of salvation based on works and not needing the New Birth to be obedient to God.

Heb 11 is talking about their not being given the full promises of the Gospel in the form of a New Heavens and New Earth.

Look at it this way.

Just look, not saying you have to accept it, but, just look at it from this perspective:

They had received the promises, which was, as we see from Jesus' ministry and the outcome (giving of the Comforter, new birth, etc.), but they had not received what was promised.

Salvation in Christ was the fulfillment of God's promised rest.

But Heb 11 INCLUDES those who were taken directly to heaven itself without dying (Enoch for example). It also includes Moses. These were men who were born again saints.

Noah spoke with God "face to face" Numbers 12.

Enoch was taken directly to heaven - as was Elijah.

This is one of those things that many believe differently about.

Some of my favorite teachers believe that saints have always gone to be with the Lord in Heaven when they died (and two who scripture indicate didn't die).

I don't see it that way.

I think the traditional belief of the Jew (who, if you think about it, were the people of God and privy to His word) that the place of the dead, Sheol, was, as they traditionally believed, a spiritual place of the dead having two areas, one for the just, and one for the wicked.

All who died before the sacrifice of Christ, went here, and upon His death, Christ delivered them from Sheol to Heaven (He led captivity captive).

This I see, fits better with this:

John 1:18 (King James Version)

18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

And this:

1 John 4:12 (King James Version)

12No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

We see in scripture that man did see God on occasion, such as Abraham on the plains of Mamre.

My thought is that no man, either alive or after death, until their sin had been paid for in the place of the Cross, and the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, that no man came into the presence of the Father.

In this way the above verses are reconciled.

Now, this is just what I believe, and I do not teach this as a certainty.

Nor do I debate this with people, because I admit, I may be wrong, and I only debate what I see as sound doctrine.

I will discuss the gray areas (such as the rapture, which I think is clearer than the aforementioned belief), but teach them as truth...not yet.

But I think the reasoning is sound, to me anyway.

There is no possibility of arguing that before the cross these men were all depraved lost sinners - who obeyed God without needing the new birth, without the law written on the heart, without the adoption of the New Covenant.

As the blessings of the New Covenant were but promised and until Pentecost not given, it would seem logical that the new birth, as we understand it in New Testament terms, had as of yet to be given as well.

Don't misunderstand me, I do believe that man has only been able to fulfill in any way God's law through His Spirit.

But the point about the New Covenant is that it is New, as opposed to the Covenant of Law.

I see it as going into affect after the "sprinkling of Christ's blood," so to speak.

Is 59:21 "My Spirit which IS upon you and My Words which I HAVE put IN your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mout of your offsprings offsprings says the Lord - from NOW and FOREVER"

Isaiah 59

20And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

21As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Think about this:

Again we see the promise of Messiah.

When national Israel comes under the New Covenant, which they are blinded today from seeing that Jesus is Messiah, they too will partake of the "received" promises of blessings.

We, the Church, because we have received Messiah (the Redeemer), have received the promises, which for us, are no longer promises, but realities.

There is only one means of salvation - the Gospel only works one way.

Sins must be forgiven.
The lost depraved soul must be born again (John 3)
Those alienated from God must be adopted back in to the family of God.

This is a clear presentation of gospel truth. Amen.

These promises ARE the core of the New Covenant - promised in both OT and NT.

This is the "ONE" Gospel fully functioning in both ages.

"They all drank the same spiritual drink.. drinking from a spiritual Rock, and that Rock was CHRIST". 1Cor 10:4

in Christ,

Bob

I agree, but still would point out that those of Hebrews 11 had not been made complete: and could not be until Christ came.

The next installment of the study presents a succession of verses that clear up what the writer is saying.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Hello to All,

Welcome back, I hope by now the clear presentation by our writer and the Holy Spirit of Our Great High Priest has made you look at His sacrifice in a way like never before.



That you have seen His sacrifice as fully sufficient and the only sufficiency to meet the righteous demand of payment for the penalty of sin.



Let me reiterate that this thread is not to bring the allusion that we of ourselves can be perfect in the sense of never sinning, but that perfection, completion of God's intention to reconcile man to Himself has come through Jesus Christ.



Who said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life."



By now, this thread should be almost unneeded for those who have understood the premise, and have looked at this on their own.



Our next verse confirms once again that Christ is the end result of all God has intended for the redemption of man, and that His position as the Way to eternal life both stands alone and is without end.



Hebrews 7:28 (King James Version)


28For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.


Another verse expressing Christ's superiority over the shadow, or, the "model" of the Levitical Priesthood.



Consecrated is:



5048. teleioo tel-i-o'-o from 5046; to complete, i.e. (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character):--consecrate, finish, fulfil, make) perfect.



We are very familiar with this word by now, but let's take a quick look at our previous occurences of this word.





Hebrews 2:10 (King James Version)

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.





Hebrews 5:9 (King James Version)

9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Hebrews 7:19 (King James Version)

19For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


When we look at these in succession, a clear picture is painted for our understanding.



5408 will also be found in these verses:



Hebrews 9:9 (King James Version)

9Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


Hebrews 10

1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.



Hebrews 11:40 (King James Version)

40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.



Hebrews 12:23 (King James Version)

23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


With just an understanding of the word perfect, we really need no commentary on these verses.



They stand clear in their teaching, and make us to see the purpose of the finished work of Christ.



Why this teaching within the book of Hebrews is overlooked is specifically due to our applying the modern meaning of perfection, rather than understanding the completion that is meant.



Which can have a connotation of completion, but is usually thought of in the sense of "without flaw".



And why wouldn't we immediately and automatically assume this meaning?



For Jesus Christ is Perfect and without flaw.



One more thing about our current verse:



Hebrews 7:28 (King James Version)

28For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.


The word of the oath, God's affirmation of the Priesthood of Christ.



That Christ was coming, and that His Priesthood would be put in place, and that He would be a complete and eternal High Priest, is yet another example of His Word being fulfilled in His timing and in His way.



Before the foundation of the world, God meant for you and I to become His children.



He has made the way, for He is the way...



We have but to follow.



God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

Christ argues the point at the end of Luke that ALL that the prophets predicted must take place. He chastises his own contemporaries for being "slow to believe all that the prophets said" Lk 24:25.

Christ presents the reverse picture. He argues that those inlightened by the Holy Spirit to see the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to FOLLOW - were far more informed and insightful than the plodding slow-to-believe contemporaries of Christ after the resurrection.

Even Paul is "tested" in Acts 17:11 to see IF what he claims about Christ is actually true - and the "test" is in the form of "studying the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by Paul - were so".

I am not arguing that Paul did not have even more added light - I am simply pointing out that the Bible gives us no room for 2nd-class salvation in the OT or 2nd class born-again saints in the OT as if that was "another gospel" method of salvation based on works and not needing the New Birth to be obedient to God.

Look at it this way.

Just look, not saying you have to accept it, but, just look at it from this perspective:

They had received the promises, which was, as we see from Jesus' ministry and the outcome (giving of the Comforter, new birth, etc.), but they had not received what was promised.

Salvation in Christ was the fulfillment of God's promised rest.

There is nothing at all in scripture saying that they were not saved in the OT, or that they were not born again.

In Romans 3 the lost condition is described in full. It places man in a depraved condition. That is not even remotely a description that we see in Heb 11 of the saved saints in the OT. In fact salvation was soooo real in the OT that Elijah, and Enoch were taken directly to heaven without dying and Moses was assumed into heaven after he died and was buried.

Thus there is no Bible argument possible that salvation (the born-again, reconciled to God - saint experience) was the thing missing in the OT.

The thing missing is exactly what we see in Matt 5 and Heb 11- the New Heavens and the New Earth - which is "what was promised".

And even we today - continue to wait for what was promised in that regard.

This is one of those things that many believe differently about.

Some of my favorite teachers believe that saints have always gone to be with the Lord in Heaven when they died (and two who scripture indicate didn't die).

I don't see it that way.

In John 11 - before the Cross - Christ said "Lazarus sleeps - I go that I may wake him".

In 1Thess 4 Paul says that at the 2nd coming Christ will "bring with him those that have fallen asleep". Paul is adamant on this point saying in vs 13 "I do not want you to be uninformed about those who have fallen asleep".

1Cor 11:30 "for this reason many among you are are sick and a number sleep"

What happens to the saints when they die - is described the same way in both pre-cross and post-cross contexts. Even by NT writers.

I think the traditional belief of the Jew (who, if you think about it, were the people of God and privy to His word) that the place of the dead, Sheol, was, as they traditionally believed, a spiritual place of the dead having two areas, one for the just, and one for the wicked.

All who died before the sacrifice of Christ, went here, and upon His death, Christ delivered them from Sheol to Heaven (He led captivity captive).

I cannot speak to the traditions of Jews as much as to the text of scripture.

In Ecclesiastes 12:7 "the dust will return to the earth as it WAS and the SPIRIT will return to God".

Thus the Bible teaches that the spirits of all the dead (both good and evil) go to God at death - but are in a dormant state.

In Matt 10:28 - Christ states pre-cross "do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul... rather fear Him who can destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".

This I see, fits better with this:

John 1:18 (King James Version)

18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

And this:

1 John 4:12 (King James Version)

12No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

We see in scripture that man did see God on occasion, such as Abraham on the plains of Mamre.

John is writing many years after the cross - in John 1:18 and John is claiming that even at that time - no man has seen God the Father.

(clearly this is a reference to men living on earth and not special cases such as Enoch, Moses and Elijah in heaven with God)

God - YHWH that seen in the OT is in fact God the Son - This is the only way the John 1:18 text works. Thus John 1:18 speaks specifically about "The Father".

My thought is that no man, either alive or after death, until their sin had been paid for in the place of the Cross, and the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, that no man came into the presence of the Father.

The statement is true - because at death man is in a dormant state - both pre-cross and post-cross.

But where your statement fails is to the extent that you might try to apply it to translated saints like Enoch and Elijah - or Moses or those raised in Matt 27 along with Christ - etc.

Because in John 1:18 - John is writing many DECADES AFTER the cross and John is affirming that STILL at that time - no one has seen the Father.

Thus his statement only works if you are talking about the living (on earth) or the dead who are asleep and dormant -- without even the ability to worship or praise God.

As the blessings of the New Covenant were but promised and until Pentecost not given, it would seem logical that the new birth, as we understand it in New Testament terms, had as of yet to be given as well.

Don't misunderstand me, I do believe that man has only been able to fulfill in any way God's law through His Spirit.

But the point about the New Covenant is that it is New, as opposed to the Covenant of Law.

The problem with that - is that you end up with two gospels.

You end up having to argue that REAL forgiveness (Christ said "your sins ARE forgiven") is available without the new birth, adoption, new-creation of the New Covenant.

OR you have to argue that LAW was able to provide REAL forgiveness, and the walk of faith fully pleasing to God (Heb 11) but without the New Birth of the New Covenant.

Both of which are not possible to support from scripture.

Paul is clear in Gal 3 - that IF there were such a thing as a covenant of LAW that COULD provide salvation (such that Enoch goes to heaven by Law NOT by the Gospel of salvation by Grace through faith) or such that the Heb 11 list of saints walks by faith fully pleasing to God BY LAW - and without the benefit of being born-again -- THEN "Christ died needlessly".

Christ completely negates the solution you are looking for - when in John 3 he tells Nicodemus that all Hebrew Bible students should be fully aware that there is no entrance into the Kingdom of God apart from the New Birth.

Thus when David appeals to God's "Creating in ME a CLEAN heart" and renewing a "right spirit" - he is speaking of the same New Covenant actions as we see in Jeremiah 31:33 (Ps 37:31) with the Law written in the heart.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Darrell C]

Hello to All,

Sorry (again) for seeming to abandon the thread.

But we are drawing near to a conclusion (maybe), and hope there are those of you who have been blessed.

We jump right in with a little groundwork:


Hebrews 9

1Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

2For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;


Found within the Covenant of Law was the necessary tabernacle.

It is important to notice that our writer is not distinguishing between different tabernacles, but the rooms within the tabernacle, called the first (the first room, also known as the holy place), and the second, which is the same word used for sanctuary...only repeated twice, hagion hagion.

Translated as Holiest of all.


6Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

7But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:


The priests (plural) went into the the first, but into the second, only the High Priest went, and as we saw before, only once a year.

Not without blood. He, as well as the people, had to make offering for their sins.

What is the holiest of all referred to in v. 8?

In order to access this holiest of all, it is implied that the first tabernacle must not be standing...signified by the Holy Spirit.

Consider:


Matthew 12:6 (King James Version)

6But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.


Who is greater than the temple?


Matthew 24

1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


John 2

18Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

19Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21But he spake of the temple of his body.
22When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.



Man was given a system in which they, in type, entered by a mediator (the High Priest).

We, through the Priesthood of Jesus Christ, being both offerer and offering, have been given a faith by which we become the dwellingplace of God.

Even as God the Son indwelt the body of a man, Christ now comes to dwell with man when they are saved.


1 Corinthians 3:16 (King James Version)

16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Back to Hebrews:


Hebrews 9

9Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;


Perfect in verse 9 is:

5048. teleioo tel-i-o'-o from 5046; to complete, i.e. (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character):--consecrate, finish, fulfil, make) perfect.


The gifts and sacrifices of the first tabernacle could not make complete, as pertaining to the conscience.

The guilt of sin was ever present in the lives of those who were honest about their sin.

The self-righteous have no conscience of sin.

The born-again have a conscience of sin, but trust in Christ that He has paid the debt.

Perfect in v.11 is:

5046. teleios tel'-i-os from 5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588) completeness:--of full age, man, perfect.


The tabernacle of our Great High Priest can be called nothing less than complete.


Hebrews 10:5 (King James Version)

5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:


Hebrews 10:20 (King James Version)

20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;



Completion has come for those who would embrace Him.

How could God bring man into His presence?

By indwelling the flesh of man, and taking it into the Holiest of All...into His presence.

By dying in the place of all who call on His name.


One final thing for now:

Though this is secondary, I would like to just add that the writer of Hebrews quotes from the LXX (Septuagint) in Hebrews 10:5.

The KJV has:


Psalm 40:6 (King James Version)

6Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.


Which the translators of the LXX rendered thus:


*6 Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not; but a body hast thou prepared me: whole-burnt-offering and sacrifice for sin thou didst not require


*The Translation of the Greek Old Testament Scriptures, Including the Apocrypha.
Compiled from the Translation by Sir Lancelot C. L. Brenton 1851

Is there a discrepancy?

No.

The opening of the ears was most likely held to be a figure of speech which the translators viewed, to put it simply, as part of the act of fashioning a body.

Some see an equation to the boring of the ear that represented servitude.

Either way, we do know that the Holy Spirit has said what He means in this book, and can be sure that God did prepare the body that the Eternal Son of God indwelt.

God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

In Hebrews 7 we see that Christ at his resurrection takes up His Gospel role as our High Priest.

In Heb 8 we see that He ministers as our High Priest in the sanctuary in heaven that is the pattern after which the physical sanctuary on earth was built.

In Heb 8 we see that the New Covenant is affirmed in the NT just as it was preached in the OT.

in Heb 9 we see that Christ in His role has our High Priest ministers in the sanctuary in heaven with the sacrifice of his own blood ministered in our behalf.

In Heb 10 we see that animal blood was never the mechanism that provided forgiveness of sins in any age. It was a part of the liturgy of worship before the cross - but the point is made that animal blood does not forgiven any sins only Christ's blood enables forgiveness.

It is in Heb 10 that we see the statement clearly made about the OT laws regarding sacrifices - that they are ended.

Thus each time Christ said in the Gospels "your sins ARE forgiven" it was through the power of His own sacrifice that the future could be considered by God as if it were already fact - and forgiveness offerred "for real".

The saints of Heb 11 were all accepted by God - and fully forgiven due to the blood of Christ - not "the blood of animals".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Darrell C]

Hello to All,

Getting close to the end, but I think the next few verses will be a blessing to many.



Of course, to some, maybe not.



Hebrews 10

1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.




Do you see the significance of this verse?



And, just to make sure the integrity of the context is in place, a quick recap of a few verses from the previous chapter:



Hebrews 9

9Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;


Perfect in verse 9 is:

5048. teleioo tel-i-o'-o from 5046; to complete, i.e. (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character):--consecrate, finish, fulfil, make) perfect.


Perfect in v.11 is:

5046. teleios tel'-i-os from 5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588) completeness:--of full age, man, perfect.

And again, our current verse:


Hebrews 10

1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.


Perfect in 10:1 is:


5048. teleioo tel-i-o'-o from 5046; to complete, i.e. (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character):--consecrate, finish, fulfil, make) perfect.



Twice we are told that the sacrifices and the offerings of the Covenant of Law could not make the "comers thereunto perfect".


We are told that there is a greater (superior) and more perfect (complete) tabernacle which was not built by the hands of man.


What is the greater tabernacle?


There are several things that can be said of the greater "temple".


As part of the Old Covenant, the tabernacle represented the presence of God with man.


It is important to remember that this structure was temporary.


Repeatedly torn down and reassembled, while man made his way through the wilderness.


Today, we have a new temple, in which God resides...our bodies.


In the temporal sense, since Pentecost, this House of God has also been temporary, repeatedly torn down and rebuilt, through the death of the saints, and those who are born again.


New, living stones, are constantly added to the house of God, even as some go to be with the Lord.


There is also another way to look at the greater and more complete temple...The actual presence of God...Heaven itself.


Christ, God in human flesh, was the first man to enter the presence of God in a human body.


What?


It is true.


When God took on the form of man, He lived in that body, died in that body, and that very same body is the one He was glorified in, and ascended to the Father in.


Consider again:


Hebrews 10:19-20 (King James Version)

19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


The veil represented the separation of man from God. The High Priest, who was a type of Christ, was the only one who could enter into the presence of God.


Today, there is a veil over the yes of the Jews, that they might not...what?


Keep the commandments?


Not hardly.


The veil keeps them from the most important realization that all of mankind needs to come to...that Jesus Christ is the promised Messiah.


We are told in our present verse that the law, having a shadow of good things to come...


Stop right there, and consider:


Shadow is:


4639. skia skee'-ah apparently a primary word; "shade" or a shadow (literally or figuratively (darkness of error or an adumbration)):-- shadow.


I think the KJV translators did a good job with shadow.


It is not the exact image, or the real thing, but, even as the statue's shadow is not the shadow, the law was not the "good things to come".


We see another example in Hebrews:


Hebrews 8:4-5 (King James Version)

4For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:


5Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Again, a shadow of heavenly things, of good things to come.


Is it not the goal of every born-again believer to be in the presence of God?


Example in this verse is:


5262. hupodeigma hoop-od'-igue-mah from 5263; an exhibit for imitation or warning (figuratively, specimen, adumbration):--en-(ex-)ample, pattern.

Hebrews is clear that the tabernacle was temporary, and not only that, but representative of of the true tabernacle, the true temple...Heaven.


One last verse concerning the Temple of God:


Revelation 11:19 (King James Version)

19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


Back to our current verse:



Hebrews 10

1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.


We are told that the law could not make complete.


For those who have followed this thread, they already know what did make complete.


Tune in next time, when we examine what and Who makes complete, and what that means in our lives as believers.


God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

Hebrews 11 states the Enoch was taken to heaven long before the time of Christ.

Matt 17 confirms that Moses and Elijah are in heaven - and stand in the presence of God.

Enoch and Elijah (and possibly Moses if the Jude account is correct regarding Moses' body) were taken bodily into heaven.

Thus Christ is not the first person to be in heaven.

But Christ is the only person to stand in the presence of God "for us" according to Hebrews 9 and 10.

Christ is now ministering in heaven as our High Priest according to Hebrews 7, 8, 9 and even 10.

Lev 16 predicted this would happen as it explains God's view of Atonement using His Day of Atonement typology.

Heb 9 describes the work that Christ does in heaven as our high priest.

Heb 7
25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For it was fitting for us to havesuch a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Hebrews 8
1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.
3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer.
4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;
5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "" SEE,'' He says, ""THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.''[/quote]


Heb 9:11
"But WHEN Christ APPEARED as a HIGH PRIEST of the GOOD things
to come HE ENTERED through the GREATER and MORE PERFECT TABERNACLE, NOT MADE with HANDS, that IS to say, NOT OF THIS creation;..



Heb 9:23
"THEREFORE it was necessary that the COPIES OF the THINGS in
heaven to be cleansed with these, but the HEAVENLY THINGS THEMSELVES
with BETTER sacrifices than these. For Christ did NOT enter a holy place MADE'
with HANDS, a MERE COPY of the TRUE ONE, but into HEAVEN ITSELF"


Christs role as our High Priest after the cross is essential for salvation according to the writer of Hebrews --.


Heb 5
8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

 

[BobRyan]

Paul affirms the point in Romans 8 that the lost (yes even lost Jews) do not keep the commandments of God - because this is something only the saved can do.

3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


Law FULFILLED in the case of those who DO NOT walk according to the Flesh! As for those who DO walk in the flesh and refuse the Spirit of God …

Rom 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Hence the Heb 8 concept of the "New Covenant" (a reference to the OT teaching found in Jer 31:33) where the LAW of God is "written on the heart and mind".

behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will effect a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 "" for this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the lord: I will put My laws into their minds, and I will write them on their hearts and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 "" and they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, and everyone his brother, saying, "know the Lord,' for all will know Me, from the least to the greatest of them.
12 "" for I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.'

No wonder Paul says to the saved in 1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

 

[Darrell C]

Hello Bob,

Hope all is well with you, and yours.

A few thoughts on your reply, and a request:

If at all possible, if you could just maybe enlarge the scripture quoted without adding the color (embolden or italicize), as it makes it very difficult to separate in order to answer.

Hebrews 11 states the Enoch was taken to heaven long before the time of Christ.

Hebrews 11 states he was "taken away that he might not see death."

Genesis tells us "He was not," and that he "walked with God (which I see as his earthly testimony).

But it doesn't say he went to heaven.

As I have said before, I don't believe anyone went into heaven before the Cross, and have said I may be wrong.

The question here, and what is discussed is this: Jesus Christ, I believe (which is influenced by previously stated belief), was the first one to ascend to heaven in a glorified body.

I see no scriptural evidence that there were men glorified, meaning the earthly bodies they were born in were changed, as that of Jesus Christ.

Matt 17 confirms that Moses and Elijah are in heaven - and stand in the presence of God.

I see no confirmation in Matthew 17 of anyone other than the Father being in heaven.

Enoch and Elijah (and possibly Moses if the Jude account is correct regarding Moses' body) were taken bodily into heaven.

The Jude account is indeed correct:

Jude

9Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

This I see as regarding the disposition of Moses' physical body.

Michael and Satan do not battle over the souls/spirits of men.

God alone is judge, these two are but servants.

Thus Christ is not the first person to be in heaven.

This conclusion is drawn without basis.

Scripture, as well as Jesus Christ, indicate that men did not come into the presence of God before the Cross.

Even as, to some, it indicates that they did.

I see more evidence to the former, rather than the latter, and thus I believe it.

I may be wrong, and I usually don't debate an issue that is as of yet unclear to me.

But as to your next statements...

 

[Darrell C]

Continuation of reply

But Christ is the only person to stand in the presence of God "for us" according to Hebrews 9 and 10.

This I would agree to, Christ is our (only) mediator.

Christ is now ministering in heaven as our High Priest according to Hebrews 7, 8, 9 and even 10.

I agree with this to the extent of Christ's Priesthood, however, whether intentional or not (I don't know), I see (have seen) an allussion that Christ's sacrificial work is ongoing, in the sense that He continually is offering His blood for the sins of man.

This He did once.

Lev 16 predicted this would happen as it explains God's view of Atonement using His Day of Atonement typology.

Jesus is the life of all prophecy, whether spoken, written, or pictoral.

Heb 9 describes the work that Christ does in heaven as our high priest.

Hebrews 9 shows the picture of the Levitical system, and that Christ's work was what it pictured.

The old was a shadow, Christ's was what it typified.

While the sacrifice of Christ was effectual for the sins of all sinners for all of the ages, it must be understood that He died once, and that sacrifice was accepted of the Father.

Hebrews 9:24-28 (King James Version)

24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

When Christ returns, there will still be no need for another offering.

Heb 7
25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Why do those who are saved forever need intercession?

Until we are redeemed from our fallen flesh, we still have the propensity for sin.

One of the big differences that Hebrews points out concerning priesthood is that the Levitical priest were sinners who died.

Christ was sinless in His earthly life, is sinless in His eternal life, and does not need for Himself to offer for sin, but gave Himself for us, sinful man.

His Priesthood is eternal, because He "is alive forevermore."

26 For it was fitting for us to havesuch a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;

Separated how?

Though tempted, He was holy, undefiled, and did not sin.

Making Him a sacrifice without blemish, acceptable to God.

27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Again, we see the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice.

This aspect of salvation, we are told over and over again in Hebrews, was accomplished the first time around...as opposed to the sacrifice of the Old Covenant.

Hebrews 8

1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.[/QUOTE]

Here is the main point, our writer says:

We who have believed in Christ have a High Priest in the true tabernacle (Heaven) who has finished what the Levitical priests could not...the bringing of man into the presence of God.

No Levitical priest could sit down, and no chairs were in the earthly figure of the true tabernacle.

3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer.

What is it that He offered?

Himself.

Behold, the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the world.

4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;

Jesus was not of the tribe of Levi, and therefore according to Law, could not offer up in the role of earthly priest.

Which is another point of Christ's superiority over the earthly figure.

5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "" SEE,'' He says, ""THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.''

[/QUOTE]


God gave Moses instruction of how He wanted the true to be symbolized on earth.

Heb 9:11
"But WHEN Christ APPEARED as a HIGH PRIEST of the GOOD things
to come HE ENTERED through the GREATER and MORE PERFECT TABERNACLE, NOT MADE with HANDS, that IS to say, NOT OF THIS creation;..

That which is built by God, the true, as opposed to the shadow.

Heb 9:23
"THEREFORE it was necessary that the COPIES OF the THINGS in
heaven to be cleansed with these, but the HEAVENLY THINGS THEMSELVES
with BETTER sacrifices than these. For Christ did NOT enter a holy place MADE'
with HANDS, a MERE COPY of the TRUE ONE, but into HEAVEN ITSELF"

Because in eternity past, God intended for the redemption of man to be through the shed blood of Christ, He set up the pattern on earth to represent His death for the sins of the world.

Now that He has fulfilled that pattern with the sacrifice that truly redeems, the Old has become obsolete.

Just as a prototype of a car is not the finished product, even so, the sacrifice of the Levitical priesthood was not the finished work.

Which is why our writer goes to the extent he does to proclaim Christ's work...complete.

Christs role as our High Priest after the cross is essential for salvation according to the writer of Hebrews --.


Heb 5

It is, agreed.

But after salvation, Christ does not offer Himself up again...this He did once, and it need not be repeated.

While we are in this body, we will always be in need of intercession.

But the finished work of Christ (on the Cross) is complete.

We are made complete through the one sacrifice.

Something not possible until He accomplished it, which is why our writer says of those before the Cross:

Hebrews 11:39-40 (King James Version)

39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

Christ is now ministering in heaven as our High Priest according to Hebrews 7, 8, 9 and even 10.

Lev 16 predicted this would happen as it explains God's view of Atonement using His Day of Atonement typology.

Heb 9 describes the work that Christ does in heaven as our high priest.

Heb 7
25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For it was fitting for us to havesuch a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Christs role as our High Priest after the cross is essential for salvation according to the writer of Hebrews --.


Heb 5
8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
10 being designated by God as a high priestaccording to the order of Melchizedek.

It is, agreed.

But after salvation, Christ does not offer Himself up again...this He did once, and it need not be repeated.

Agreed.

But in God's Lev 16 model He does not tell us that more "sin offerings" have to be sacrificed on the Day of Atonment - after the ONE sin offering is made in order to show value for the work of the High Priest.

Thus the Lev 16 model does not argue for "more sacrifice" of Christ after the cross.

On the contrary - we have ONE sin offering - offerred up on behalf of the people and the altar - and the sanctuary - one and only one.

And we have the High Priestly work being done - AFTER that one Sacrifice is offered and complete. That High Priest is not "suffering" while he is working in the Sanctuary.

While we are in this body, we will always be in need of intercession.

But the finished work of Christ (on the Cross) is complete.

It is true. And it is called the "Atoning Sacrifice" in 1John 2:2.

It corresponds to the sin offering - completed on the Day of Atonement.

But the Day of Atonement also predicts the High Priestly work of Christ - that followed his completed Atoning Sacrifice.

We are made complete through the one sacrifice.

Something not possible until He accomplished it, which is why our writer says of those before the Cross:

Hebrews 11:39-40 (King James Version)

39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

God bless.

Thus - none of us are in the New Earth.

If you notice that in Heb 11 one of those mentioned has NOT having received what was promised - is Enoch. A man who was taken directly to heaven - into the presence of God without dying. Fully forgiven. Fully saved.

The only thing that Enoch has "not received" is the promised - New Earth.

Notice that in Matt 5 Christ says "blessed are the meek for they shall INHERIT the Earth".

The New Earth is the ultimate home of humanity - and that happens in Rev 21 - after the 1000 years - after the lake of fire event.

Christ looks forward to that in Matt 5.

So also God speaks of this New Earth in Isaiah 66 when God claims that "ALL mankind will come and bow before Me to Worship".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by Darrell C
Hope all is well with you, and yours.

A few thoughts on your reply, and a request:

If at all possible, if you could just maybe enlarge the scripture quoted without adding the color (embolden or italicize), as it makes it very difficult to separate in order to answer.

I will do my best to remember - although it is in the posts I am replying to - and it is in my saved files from prior posts I have made here.

Quote:
Hebrews 11 states he was "taken away that he might not see death."

Genesis tells us "He was not," and that he "walked with God (which I see as his earthly testimony).

But it doesn't say he went to heaven.

Notice what Heb 11 says -

1. Faith of OT saints - completely acceptable to God - nothing lacking
in Heb 11 as it comments on them.

1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
2 For by it the men of old gained approval.

- their faith is said to be perfectly accepted
by God speaking of faith "For by it men of old gained approval"

Heb 11

3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.
4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.

Righteousness by faith - fully active in the OT

5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

Enoch: apparently "pleased God" so much that God took him up to heaven. Something we do not find among NT saints until the second coming.

Genesis 5

20 So all the days of Jared were nine hundred and sixty-two years, and he died.
21 Enoch lived sixty-five years, and became the father of Methuselah.
22 Then Enoch walked with God three hundred years after he became the father of Methuselah, and he had other sons and daughters.
23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years.
24 Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

Instead of the formula “so all the days of ABC were nnn years AND HE DIED”

we find

“So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.”

Impossible to miss. “God took him” (“He was Taken UP” Heb 11:5) “So that” he would not see death.

2Kings 2:1 "And it came about when the LORD was about to TAKE UP Elijah by a whirlwind to HEAVEN.."


2Kings 2:11 "And Elijah WENT UP by a whirlwind to HEAVEN".

Once you have Elijah in heaven - there is little point in jumping through hoops to stop Enoch from going to heaven when God "took him" without having him die.

And this solidifies in triplicate the argument that the Gospel worked the SAME in the OT as it does today. Thus the Gal 1:6-11 statement about there being only "ONE" gospel is far more real than many might want to believe.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

And this solidifies in triplicate the argument that the Gospel worked the SAME in the OT as it does today. Thus the Gal 1:6-11 statement about there being only "ONE" gospel is far more real than many might want to believe.

I've noticed you have no problem repeating that there is only "ONE" gospel for all of time, yet when asked, you cannot articulate this one gospel in your own words.

I can do it.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ "ALONE" and thou shall be saved.

Now you try it.

 

[BobRyan]

As I have said before, I don't believe anyone went into heaven before the Cross, and have said I may be wrong.

The question here, and what is discussed is this: Jesus Christ, I believe (which is influenced by previously stated belief), was the first one to ascend to heaven in a glorified body.

I see no scriptural evidence that there were men glorified, meaning the earthly bodies they were born in were changed, as that of Jesus Christ.

I see no confirmation in Matthew 17 of anyone other than the Father being in heaven.

In Matt 17 Christ is "transfigured" that means that He appeared in glorified form.

Moses and Elijah are both there in that same form. Only in their case they are in their glorified bodies. Christ being the God-man stands with them "transfigured" into His glorified form.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I've noticed you have no problem repeating that there is only "ONE" gospel for all of time, yet when asked, you cannot articulate this one gospel in your own words.

I can do it.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ "ALONE" and thou shall be saved.

Now you try it.

With you Steaver - I always steer the conversation to scripture itself.

Hence my reference to Paul's affirmation of the New Covenant in Heb 8:7-11.



in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

With you Steaver - I always steer the conversation to scripture itself.

Hence my reference to Paul's affirmation of the New Covenant in Heb 8:7-11.



in Christ,

Bob

Yes, why is that? I think the unbiased objective reader knows the answer.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Enoch and Elijah (and possibly Moses if the Jude account is correct regarding Moses' body) were taken bodily into heaven.

The Jude account is indeed correct:

Jude

9Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

This I see as regarding the disposition of Moses' physical body.

Michael and Satan do not battle over the souls/spirits of men.

Jude is quoting from a book titled "The Assumption of Moses" -

Assumption is the teaching that someone is bodily raised and then assumed into heaven.

My point is that if Jude is correct in referencing this account from the "assumption of Moses" then it is very likely that Moses standing in his glorified body in Matt 17, along with Elijah who was taken to heaven - and is in his glorified body - are speaking with Christ who stands "transfigured" into His glorified form.

In Matt 16 Christ predicts that some of those standing there would see Him in His glory - and so in Matt 17 that is what they see.

The point is that while there are only a few cases of this in the OT - it is far more than we have in the NT. The gospel was fully functional in the OT.

in Christ,

Bob