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Perserverance

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Earth Wind and Fire

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Still we have a Brother who descriptively refutes the Calvinist / Reformed Believer because he faults God on the matter of election itself. As Reformed Believers, we fervently & sincerely are convinced that God does operate in this way....Doctrines of Grace. In other words, this brother is Refuting our very belief system. What are we to say about that? Are we then not Christian Believers? Im very confused by this.
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
Still we have a Brother who descriptively refutes the Calvinist / Reformed Believer because he faults God on the matter of election itself. As Reformed Believers, we fervently & sincerely are convinced that God does operate in this way....Doctrines of Grace. In other words, this brother is Refuting our very belief system. What are we to say about that? Are we then not Christian Believers? Im very confused by this.

He has never refuted a thing. I take it you refer to winman. He has not refuted one thing. Disdained it? Yes. Misrepresented it? Yes. Put words in others mouths? Certainly. Uses unfounded alleged "many reformed theologians say this" and has no proof to his fabrications and can't document it because it is nowhere to be found? Yup.

He isn't refuting our belief. He can't. He attacks things with falsified statements, and his self-fabricated "quotes" "from" alleged reformed theologians, then runs off when called to give an account of these things he makes up and can never prove.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

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He has never refuted a thing. I take it you refer to winman. He has not refuted one thing. Disdained it? Yes. Misrepresented it? Yes. Put words in others mouths? Certainly. Uses unfounded alleged "many reformed theologians say this" and has no proof to his fabrications and can't document it because it is nowhere to be found? Yup.

He isn't refuting our belief. He can't. He attacks things with falsified statements, and his self-fabricated "quotes" "from" alleged reformed theologians, then runs off when called to give an account of these things he makes up and can never prove.

So explain away this comment for me Pastor

Your God does not love everyone and has no desire to save the vast majority of men.
 

Winman

Active Member
I stress that I was not try to fool you, nor was I being deceptive. I am really sorry that you took it that way. On a lighter not, I usually am out of bed by 6am!

I get up at 4:30 AM every morning except Sunday where I sleep a little longer. :sleep:



But you are still several hours ahead of me.
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
So explain away this comment for me Pastor

Your God does not love everyone and has no desire to save the vast majority of men.

Brother, you said he refuted us. That is to disprove a thing.

Are you saying he disproved us?

That is my point. He has not refuted a thing. He cannot do it.

He has rather misrepresented and fabricated mistruths and uses alleged sayings of reformed theologians that are untrue to try to "prove" his point. This is his way.

You give credit unknowingly by saying he has "refuted." He cannot refute the testimony of Scripture concerning God, though try as he may.
 

annsni

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Why would the size of the gate be of any importance if only the chosen will enter? IMO It's size would only be relevant if some effort was required to either find it or pass through it.

No, it shows that there is not a wide range of beliefs or personal effort that can get you in. Instead, the gate to destruction is so wide because so may enter through it and the gate to eternal life is narrow because few pass through it. Where do you come up with the idea that there is effort to pass through the gate?
 

Cypress

New Member
No, it shows that there is not a wide range of beliefs or personal effort that can get you in. Instead, the gate to destruction is so wide because so may enter through it and the gate to eternal life is narrow because few pass through it. Where do you come up with the idea that there is effort to pass through the gate?

Ann,
I agree with your first sentence. The second sentence has the people determining the size of the gate. This does not make sense to me. These commentators express the idea of effort better than I, but effort or difficulty is expressed in this text.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible

Enter ye in at the strait gate - Christ here compares the way to life to an entrance through a gate. The words "straight" and "strait" have very different meanings. The former means "not crooked;" the latter, "pent up, narrow, difficult to be entered." This is the word used here, and it means that the way to heaven is "pent up, narrow, close," and not obviously entered. The way to death is open, broad, and thronged. The Saviour here referred probably to ancient cities. They were surrounded with walls and entered through gates. Some of those, connected with the great avenues to the city, were broad and admitted a throng; others, for more private purposes, were narrow, and few would be seen entering them. So, says Christ, is the path to heaven. It is narrow. It is not "the great highway" that people tread. Few go there. Here and there one may be seen - traveling in solitude and singularity. The way to death, on the other hand, is broad. Multitudes are in it. It is the great highway in which people go. They fall into it easily and without effort, and go without thought. If they wish to leave that and go by a narrow gate to the city, it would require effort and thought. So, says Christ, "diligence" is needed to enter life. See Luke 13:24. None go of course. All must strive, to obtain it; and so narrow, unfrequented, and solitary is it, that few find it. This sentiment has been beautifully versified by Watts:

"Broad is the road that leads to death,

And thousands walk together there;

But wisdom shows a narrower path,

With here and there a traveler."

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

Mt 7:13-29. Conclusion and Effect of the Sermon on the Mount.

We have here the application of the whole preceding discourse.

Conclusion of the Sermon on the Mount (Mt 7:13-27). "The righteousness of the kingdom," so amply described, both in principle and in detail, would be seen to involve self-sacrifice at every step. Multitudes would never face this. But it must be faced, else the consequences will be fatal. This would divide all within the sound of these truths into two classes: the many, who will follow the path of ease and self-indulgence-end where it might; and the few, who, bent on eternal safety above everything else, take the way that leads to it-at whatever cost. This gives occasion to the two opening verses of this application.

13. Enter ye in at the strait gate-as if hardly wide enough to admit one at all. This expresses the difficulty of the first right step in religion, involving, as it does, a triumph over all our natural inclinations. Hence the still stronger expression in Luke (Lu 13:24), "Strive to enter in at the strait gate."

for wide is the gate-easily entered.

and broad is the way-easily trodden.

that leadeth to destruction, and-thus lured "many there be which go in thereat."
 

Winman

Active Member
Brother, you said he refuted us. That is to disprove a thing.

Are you saying he disproved us?

That is my point. He has not refuted a thing. He cannot do it.

He has rather misrepresented and fabricated mistruths and uses alleged sayings of reformed theologians that are untrue to try to "prove" his point. This is his way.

You give credit unknowingly by saying he has "refuted." He cannot refute the testimony of Scripture concerning God, though try as he may.

I haven't misrepresented anything. Here is what Calvin himself said:

Christ’s redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation.

If this is true, you have absolutely no way of knowing if Jesus died for you.

How can a person have faith in that?

If you are not one of the elect, no amount of pleading and begging Jesus for salvation will help you, nor could help you, as Jesus did not die for you.

Just because you go to church every Sunday, read your Bible and do other good works is no guarantee that you were elected before the foundation of the world.

And you can't even claim you have saving faith, because if you happen to be unregenerate you are incapable of understanding what saving faith is. In your depraved mind you may believe yourself one of the elect, and you may believe you have saving faith, and all the while be self-deceived.
 

pinoybaptist

Active Member
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Calvinists have no room to "boast" of being elected----he is elect--only because of Jesus being THE ELECT of God----and is receiving the election of Jesus Christ---IOW---he is elect, not because God elected him--but he is elect because God elected Jesus Christ and he(both the calvin & armenian believer) is receiving that said election(the election whereby God elects Jesus Christ)

Scriptures, please, about the elect's being elect only because his election is IN CHRIST.
I know the Scriptures say that the sinner is "accepted in the beloved", but what I see is everytime Paul speaks of the elect he speaks of them as a distinct body of God's children.

Romans 8:33 - Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect

Colossians 3:12 -
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved , bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

2Timothy 2:10 - Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory

Titus 1:1 - Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

PETER:

1 Peter 1:1-2 - 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied
 

jbh28

Active Member
I trust a God who loves everyone and wants every man to be saved. I know this includes me.

Your God does not love everyone and has no desire to save the vast majority of men. You have no way of being sure he loves you, he may very well hate you. In fact, there is far more chance he hates you than loves you.

You might simply be going through the motions, deceiving youself you are elect. If God doesn't love you, you are wasting your time.

I would find it almost impossible to have assurance if your doctrine is true.

It's obvious you are not interested in an honest debate but just your usual anti-calvinst garbage. I have give my position as have others but you continue to purposefully misrepresent our doctrine. And I say purposefully because you claim to know what we believe. It's not a matter of ignorance on your part but malice.
 

jbh28

Active Member
I am NOT a calvinist----nor am I an arminest
What's an arminest?
But my election is IN CHRIST---The Lord Jesus is the very elect of the Father----and by faith I receive the Lord Jesus according to John 1:12 that says, "But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the Sons of God, even to them that believe on His name."

When I --- by faith ---- receive the Lord Jesus---not only am I receiveing HIM---but I am receiving everything that He is----and He is the very elect of God

And I am also receiveing at this very moment---HIS perserverance----the Lord Jesus is the only person who has ever lived who perservered----I realize that there is no way I myself can perservere(the smallest of the smallest evil thought---and even the failure to do even the smallest deed of good is a sin)-----but Scripture teaches me that the Lord Jesus perservered----and that I at this very moment am receiving HIS perserverance----realizing that I cannot perserver but that He did---I MUST receive HIS perserverance

So it is not I who am "elect"----it is Jesus Christ and at this very moment I am receiving HIS election

It is not I who am perservering---but it is Jesus Christ who did, is, and forevermore will perservere---and I receive HIS perserverance

For a calvin to say it is his(the calvin student) election---is bogas

For a calvin to say it is his(the calvin student) perserverance---is bogas

The Apostle Paul says that the life he is living is not his own but Christ through him----not I but Christ
You got to love it when people contradict them selves. It's the Fathers election of the sheep given to the Son.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Scriptures, please, about the elect's being elect only because his election is IN CHRIST.
I know the Scriptures say that the sinner is "accepted in the beloved", but what I see is everytime Paul speaks of the elect he speaks of them as a distinct body of God's children.

Romans 8:33 - Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect

Colossians 3:12 -
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved , bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

2Timothy 2:10 - Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory

Titus 1:1 - Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

PETER:

1 Peter 1:1-2 - 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied

Good Point Brother
 

Winman

Active Member
I think the subject is relevant.....Is God Just?

Yes, and I addressed this in another thread to Luke.

Is God just to punish a man for what he cannot do? I mean, if man is able to obey God's commands but willfully disobeys, then God is perfectly just to punish that man.

But if a man is born a sinner by God's decree and cannot possibly obey God, is God just to punish that man for failing to do that which God caused him to be unable to do?

If I cut off your legs, and then commanded you to jump up and down, promising to punish you if you fail to obey my command, would I be just?
 

jbh28

Active Member
Calvinists have no room to "boast" of being elected-
Of course. God didn't elect us because of something we did or believed. We have nothing to boast about.
---he is elect--only because of Jesus being THE ELECT of God----and is receiving the election of Jesus Christ---IOW---he is elect, not because God elected him--but he is elect because God elected Jesus Christ and he(both the calvin & armenian believer) is receiving that said election(the election whereby God elects Jesus Christ)[/QUOTE]

And what do people from Armenia believer? (armenian)

Ephesians 1 isn't about election of Christ.(christ is elect in christ?) John 6, is the father giving the son to the son?

and as pinoybaptist said...
Scriptures, please, about the elect's being elect only because his election is IN CHRIST.
I know the Scriptures say that the sinner is "accepted in the beloved", but what I see is everytime Paul speaks of the elect he speaks of them as a distinct body of God's children.

Romans 8:33 - Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect

Colossians 3:12 -
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved , bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

2Timothy 2:10 - Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory

Titus 1:1 - Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

PETER:

1 Peter 1:1-2 - 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied
 

Winman

Active Member
Of course. God didn't elect us because of something we did or believed. We have nothing to boast about.
---he is elect--only because of Jesus being THE ELECT of God----and is receiving the election of Jesus Christ---IOW---he is elect, not because God elected him--but he is elect because God elected Jesus Christ and he(both the calvin & armenian believer) is receiving that said election(the election whereby God elects Jesus Christ)

And what do people from Armenia believer? (armenian)

Ephesians 1 isn't about election of Christ.(christ is elect in christ?) John 6, is the father giving the son to the son?

and as pinoybaptist said...

How do you know you are elect?

Everything is quite different for the non-Cal. We believe that all men have the God given ability to believe or disbelieve. That doesn't save us, because no man could believe on Christ unless God had revealed him to us.

Let me say that again. Just because I have the ability to believe does not save me or anyone else. You can't just believe any old thing, you have to believe the gospel that Jesus is the Son of God who died for your sins and rose again. And you could not possibly have this knowledge of the gospel unless God had revealed it to us through his Word. So he gets all the credit.

We also believe that God loves 100% of sinners and that Jesus died for 100% of sinners. When Jesus calls me I can know for a certainty that he really desires to save me, because all men are included in this invitation. That is something you can have faith in.

But if Jesus only died for a few select persons, it cannot be helped that a person would worry and question if he were one of those fortunate few. This cannot produce faith, but worry and doubt.
 

jbh28

Active Member
I trust a God who loves everyone and wants every man to be saved. I know this includes me.

Your God does not love everyone and has no desire to save the vast majority of men. You have no way of being sure he loves you, he may very well hate you. In fact, there is far more chance he hates you than loves you.

You might simply be going through the motions, deceiving youself you are elect. If God doesn't love you, you are wasting your time.

I would find it almost impossible to have assurance if your doctrine is true.

No Calvinist believes that there are people that will believe, but because God didn't elect them, the will not have eternal life.
 
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