Perseverance of Saints is.....actually it is Eternal INsecurity

[steaver]

What is FAITH?

Really?

Faith is placing a trust in someone or something....

How about describing what "falling away from the faith" looks like?

 

[vooks]

Really?

Faith is placing a trust in someone or something....

How about describing what "falling away from the faith" looks like?

So what is departing from faith?

 

[steaver]

So what is departing from faith?

That's what I asked you.......

 

[vooks]

That's what I asked you.......

Removing your trust in someone or something

 

[steaver]

Removing your trust in someone or something

Ok. So it is not about works, good or bad, or producing fruit or the lack thereof, correct? It is about trust. You trust Jesus Christ to save you.

 

[vooks]

Ok. So it is not about works, good or bad, or producing fruit or the lack thereof, correct? It is about trust. You trust Jesus Christ to save you.

What is to ABIDE that Jesus commands us to do, and which we may not do?

 

[kyredneck]

Mat_24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mar_13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved..

Endure what?

The end of what?

Saved from what?

These are some of the most abused misapplied passages by Evangelicals and Puritans alike.

 

[kyredneck]

Here is how,
According to Calvinism,
Those who are truly saved will hang on/persevere to the end, and those who fall off were not really saved in the first place.

This tells me that the most objective test of the authenticity of Christian Faith is death; if you die 'in faith', it was the real deal, else it was fake.

Now, nobody knows zilch about the future so we don't know those claiming to be saved will fall off next week. They may claim to be elect but nobody knows for sure.

In short, the much touted 'eternal security' is only proved/confirmed by death, or Christ's return.....

If the definition of true faith is the one that endures to the end, then all faith that is yet to endure to the end can't possibly be called true or false because some will endure and some won't . That's Calvinism absurdities for you; in a desperate bid to explain away the implication of the innumerable verses charging us to endure, they minister insecurity/uncertainty.

The reason there are so many verses calling us to endure is because there is a risk of falling off, not enduring and perishing. Calvinism explains these as not being elect. This means elect can only be called thus upon death if they died in faith!

Spot on vooks! Excellent points made.

 

[steaver]

What is to ABIDE that Jesus commands us to do, and which we may not do?

What is the context? It is bearing fruit. If you want to make this passage about one losing their salvation, then you have to say you believe one is saved by their works.

What must be in view to be burned is the works. We all have good fruit and bad fruit. The good fruit is done through abiding in Christ, having that connected relationship through prayer and steadfastness. The bad fruit is what we do selfishly, or by the flesh only.

We are placed in Christ through faith, not through the fruit bearing.

Do we have other passages which speak about how we build upon our foundation, which is Jesus Christ?

"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward .
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1Cor3)

 

[vooks]

What is the context? It is bearing fruit. If you want to make this passage about one losing their salvation, then you have to say you believe one is saved by their works.

What must be in view to be burned is the works. We all have good fruit and bad fruit. The good fruit is done through abiding in Christ, having that connected relationship through prayer and steadfastness. The bad fruit is what we do selfishly, or by the flesh only.

We are placed in Christ through faith, not through the fruit bearing.

Do we have other passages which speak about how we build upon our foundation, which is Jesus Christ?

"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward .
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1Cor3)

I was very specific. What exactly is meant by ABIDE that Jesus commanded us. Stop playing dumb. The context is clearly John.

You keep conflating Paul and John and totally unrelated concepts. Stick to John.
1. Jesus commands us to ABIDE in Him. This necessarily implies human responsibility in obeying this command, else it is misplaced
2. Jesus threatens cutting off and casting into fire whoever does not abide. It's that serious.

And here you are yapping that it was a typo and Jesus should actually have said if you don't abide, you remain glued to Christ but your bad fruit is burnt in fire.


John 15:6 (KJV)
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Please explain what it means to ABIDE, CAST FORTH, and cast into fire in this verse

 

[steaver]

Please explain what it means to ABIDE, CAST FORTH, and cast into fire in this verse

I already did, and I use scripture to interpret scripture seeing how the word of God cannot contradict itself.

Now you explain why Paul said a believer's works can be burned up yet he himself remain saved? Is Paul contradicting Jesus?

 

[vooks]

I already did, and I use scripture to interpret scripture seeing how the word of God cannot contradict itself.

No you haven't.
How is being pluck off from Jesus the source of life and being cast into fire equate to your works being burned in fire?

Now you explain why Paul said a believer's works can be burned up yet he himself remain saved? Is Paul contradicting Jesus?

be wise. Paul's is a metaphor on the quality of your work. How can works be cast into fire?
But we know men will be cast into fire