Perseverance of Saints is.....actually it is Eternal INsecurity

[vooks]

"And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"

So you do these things because you are afraid you could stop believing in Jesus Christ?

I have a hard time understanding those who live in fear of losing their salvation. I have been born-again since 1973, that is 42 years, and never once did my spirit ever stop believing on Jesus Christ. It's an odd concept to me that some who declare they are Christians have this fear that they could somehow stop believing if they do not tow the line in some way.

Talk about one having eternal insecurity........not me.

You have no answer.
The reason is because your election is conditional

 

[steaver]

You have no answer.
The reason is because your election is conditional

Of course it is conditional. One must believe on Jesus Christ.

I believe it is you who have no answer, seeing how you did not answer...

"And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"

So you do these things because you are afraid you could stop believing in Jesus Christ?

 

[vooks]

Of course it is conditional. One must believe on Jesus Christ.

I believe it is you who have no answer, seeing how you did not answer...

"And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"

So you do these things because you are afraid you could stop believing in Jesus Christ?

You do all these things because that is what abiding in Christ is.
So what happens if one stops believing as Jesus taught?
John 15:6 (KJV)
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

 

[steaver]

You do all these things because that is what abiding in Christ is.

There you go. Has nothing to do with keeping yourself saved...."For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So what happens if one stops believing as Jesus taught?
John 15:6 (KJV)
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned

John 15 is about "bearing fruit" not keeping your faith. So are you now suggesting a works based salvation?

 

[Yeshua1]

Here is how,
According to Calvinism,
Those who are truly saved will hang on/persevere to the end, and those who fall off were not really saved in the first place.

This tells me that the most objective test of the authenticity of Christian Faith is death; if you die 'in faith', it was the real deal, else it was fake.

Now, nobody knows zilch about the future so we don't know those claiming to be saved will fall off next week. They may claim to be elect but nobody knows for sure.

In short, the much touted 'eternal security' is only proved/confirmed by death, or Christ's return.

So next time a Calvinist proudly boasts of being elect ( and I have never met any who wasn't ),ask them which tea leaves they read

No, most Calvinists would tend to see it as rather being that since God Himself chose to do the saving and the keeping, He has granted to the elect the means by which they shall confirm and make sure of their own election!

NOT saying that we will reach a state of sinless perfection, but that God knows and keeps his own unto the end, and we will will show that by being those who stay "in the faith"

The saved person will now have a bent towards things of God, and though while will and do have sin issues, our desire and walk is to keep on pressing to that high calling in Christ!

 

[vooks]

No, most Calvinists would tend to see it as rather being that since God Himself chose to do the saving and the keeping, He has granted to the elect the means by which they shall confirm and make sure of their own election!

NOT saying that we will reach a state of sinless perfection, but that God knows and keeps his own unto the end, and we will will show that by being those who stay "in the faith"

The saved person will now have a bent towards things of God, and though while will and do have sin issues, our desire and walk is to keep on pressing to that high calling in Christ!

We have been through this root before. If it is God who chose Himself to save, why all the exhortations to persevering? shouldn't they be directed at God?

 

[Yeshua1]

We have been through this root before. If it is God who chose Himself to save, why all the exhortations to persevering? shouldn't they be directed at God?

God already answered that for you in Romans 8, as he is the one that saves, and makes sure they are kept saved, in order to have his destiny for them worked out!

 

[vooks]

John 15 is about "bearing fruit" not keeping your faith. So are you now suggesting a works based salvation?

Is that why you are cut off from Jesus and thrown into fire?
How are you supposed to bear fruit once in fire?

 

[steaver]

Is that why you are cut off from Jesus and thrown into fire?
How are you supposed to bear fruit once in fire?

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire". (1Cor3:15)

The context of John 15 is works - bearing fruit..."Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me".

Same goes for 1Pt1..."For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Now do you have an explanation why Paul said those who have bad works will still be saved by fire? (1Cor3:15)

 

[vooks]

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire". (1Cor3:15)

The context of John 15 is works - bearing fruit..."Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me".

Same goes for 1Pt1..."For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Now do you have an explanation why Paul said those who have bad works will still be saved by fire? (1Cor3:15)

This is no man's work cast away from Christ and cast into fire, it is the man himself.

Try reading it again this time in the Amplified
John 15:6 (AMP)
6 If a person does not dwell in Me, he is thrown out like a [broken-off] branch, and withers; such branches are gathered up and thrown into the fire, and they are burned.

Matthew 13:40-42 (AMP)
40 Just as the darnel (weeds resembling wheat) is gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at the close of the age.
41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all causes of offense [persons by whom others are drawn into error or sin] and all who do iniquity and act wickedly,
42 And will cast them into the furnace of fire; there will be weeping and wailing and grinding of teeth.

 

[steaver]

This is no man's work cast away from Christ and cast into fire, it is the man himself.

Try reading it again this time in the Amplified
John 15:6 (AMP)
6 If a person does not dwell in Me, he is thrown out like a [broken-off] branch, and withers; such branches are gathered up and thrown into the fire, and they are burned.

Matthew 13:40-42 (AMP)
40 Just as the darnel (weeds resembling wheat) is gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at the close of the age.
41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all causes of offense [persons by whom others are drawn into error or sin] and all who do iniquity and act wickedly,
42 And will cast them into the furnace of fire; there will be weeping and wailing and grinding of teeth.

Now your mixing and matching passages that do not go together. Stay in context.

Now do you have an explanation why Paul said those who have bad works will still be saved by fire? (1Cor3:15)

 

[steaver]

Help me understand why you are afraid you will stop believing vooks...

 

[Yeshua1]

Help me understand why you are afraid you will stop believing vooks...

Isn't it though God Himself at work in and through to make sure that we will stay safe and secured?

Didn't jesus claim that ALL that the father gives to him, SHALL be raised up, and that none of them shall be lost again?

 

[steaver]

Isn't it though God Himself at work in and through to make sure that we will stay safe and secured?

Didn't jesus claim that ALL that the father gives to him, SHALL be raised up, and that none of them shall be lost again?

Sure is. Sure did.

 

[vooks]

Now your mixing and matching passages that do not go together. Stay in context.

You are mixing trying of works with being consumed.
1. You are cut off from Jesus
2. You are cast into fire.

Think through this. If you could not bear fruit while IN Christ, how do you bear fruit once cut off and in fire?

Now do you have an explanation why Paul said those who have bad works will still be saved by fire? (1Cor3:15)

Where does Paul say 'bad' works? That's your invention.
Besides, it is works being tested by fire not the person.

Jesus said you will be cut off, and after that thrown into fire. You, not your works

 

[vooks]

Help me understand why you are afraid you will stop believing vooks...

You are mischaracterizing me as 'afraid'. Am not afraid, just CONSCIOUS of the possibility of falling away. Something which you have vowed to ignore.

I'd have to ignore Jesus warnings plus his apostles' to believe believers can't end up in hell. Fortunately I esteem the word of God too much above traditions and empty philosophies to do that.

Is there anything that delights Satan than to deceive you you can't fall away and thus you are free to live like Lucifer?

 

[steaver]

Is there anything that delights Satan than to deceive you you can't fall away and thus you are free to live like Lucifer?

I'm not sure you are thinking this through. You say it is all about faith, not works. Then you bring up passages that are clearly speaking about works. Do you believe your works keep you saved?

Now you bring up "living like Lucifer". Again, I thought we are saved by faith alone, not faith plus how well you behave. You need to stick with one or the other. Is it by faith alone, or are you kept saved by the way you live?

 

[vooks]

I'm not sure you are thinking this through. You say it is all about faith, not works. Then you bring up passages that are clearly speaking about works. Do you believe your works keep you saved?

Now you bring up "living like Lucifer". Again, I thought we are saved by faith alone, not faith plus how well you behave. You need to stick with one or the other. Is it by faith alone, or are you kept saved by the way you live?

What is faith? A mere mental exercise?

 

[steaver]

What is faith? A mere mental exercise?

Are you saved by faith plus good behavior? Or are you saved by faith alone? Unless we have a foundation as to what is actually saving you, we will end up jumping all around the scriptures as we see here, confusing passages that speak of works as passages that are speaking of staying saved.

We are saved by faith alone. Any behavior or good works are only an evidence of the faith we have in Christ. Any lack of good works and good behavior COULD BE evidence of a FALSE CONFESSION ONLY. Any lack of good works and good behavior DOES NOT make a truly born of God person lose their salvation......it is by grace through faith ye are saved.

Every person I have ever come across that believes a person can be saved and then become lost ALWAYS, without fail, mix up justification with behaviors and good works. Every passage you have presented thus far speaks of works and behaviors. This you should know is not what keeps a person saved, it is only evidence of having been born again.

You yourself say you are not afraid of stopping your belief in Jesus Christ, but you want to impose that possibility onto others.

 

[vooks]

Are you saved by faith plus good behavior? Or are you saved by faith alone? Unless we have a foundation as to what is actually saving you, we will end up jumping all around the scriptures as we see here, confusing passages that speak of works as passages that are speaking of staying saved.

We are saved by faith alone. Any behavior or good works are only an evidence of the faith we have in Christ. Any lack of good works and good behavior COULD BE evidence of a FALSE CONFESSION ONLY. Any lack of good works and good behavior DOES NOT make a truly born of God person lose their salvation......it is by grace through faith ye are saved.

Every person I have ever come across that believes a person can be saved and then become lost ALWAYS, without fail, mix up justification with behaviors and good works. Every passage you have presented thus far speaks of works and behaviors. This you should know is not what keeps a person saved, it is only evidence of having been born again.

You yourself say you are not afraid of stopping your belief in Jesus Christ, but you want to impose that possibility onto others.

What is FAITH?