Perseverance of Saints is.....actually it is Eternal INsecurity

[vooks]

Why does the Holy Spirit EXPRESSLY speak about the born of God being recreated as one with Jesus Christ? Christ in you!!!

Each "warning" you see in scripture has an application which must be kept in the context being expressed.

Let's look at the first passage you bring up....

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

"Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;"

"Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth."

There is no mystery here as to what Paul is speaking of when he says "some shall depart from the faith". Paul clearly defines what he means when he says this, he is speaking about wrong teaching. Do you see anywhere in this passage where Paul says the person teaching these wrong doctrines is now unsaved?

The RCC forbids marrying, does this alone make them unsaved? The SDA forbids certain meat eating, does this alone make them unsaved? In this passage "departing from the faith" is clearly a departing from sound doctrine which we see playing out all throughout the body of Christ. Wrong teaching does not in itself mean a person is lost, depending on the teaching itself.

With that said, there are other passages which do speak of those who were once part of the church physically by appearance, but yet found to be un-regenerated in spirit.



You don't think the Christian faith stands alone with being born-again?

What wrong teachings would make somebody lost?

 

[vooks]

That's just exactly what the Scriptures tell us. Glad you understand!

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Who is included in the word us-ward?
It can't be the saints because they are already saved
It can only be those who are yet to receive Christ.
But why would God be patient with them yet he has already determined among them who must be saved at all costs and He can't fail in His predestination?

 

[steaver]

What wrong teachings would make somebody lost?

Remember everyone is lost until they become born of God. There are several examples given us in the scriptures of false prophets and teachers being among the church, the body of Christ. Not everyone sitting in church or even on the membership role is saved.

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction............2 Pe 2:1-22"

These folks have knowledge of the Holy commandment, they know what the scriptures say about the person of Jesus. But they reject this truth and twist the scriptures for their own gain. They "speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;" "These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever". "Wells without water" indicates they do not have the Holy Spirit Living Water, which is eternal life, Christ in you, born of God, regenerated.

2 Tim 3 is another passage. They are "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth".

 

[vooks]

Remember everyone is lost until they become born of God. There are several examples given us in the scriptures of false prophets and teachers being among the church, the body of Christ. Not everyone sitting in church or even on the membership role is saved.

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction............2 Pe 2:1-22"

These folks have knowledge of the Holy commandment, they know what the scriptures say about the person of Jesus. But they reject this truth and twist the scriptures for their own gain. They "speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;" "These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever". "Wells without water" indicates they do not have the Holy Spirit Living Water, which is eternal life, Christ in you, born of God, regenerated.

2 Tim 3 is another passage. They are "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth".

You are muddying issues.
False doctrine would never lead somebody to Christ. That is pretty obvious.
What Paul is addressing is DEPART FROM FAITH. this means his subject are people in faith in the first place. And they leave all that to follow demons.

I want to know how somebody who has abandoned his faith can be said to be in faith.

James 5:19-20 (KJV)
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins

Here is James amplifying depart-from-faith/ false doctrines. He is talking about sin but he could also be talking about apostasy. He clearly indicates possibility of DEATH. While I agree subscribing a false doctrine does not automatically mean hell, it is a possibility.....unless James was lying

PS
James was addressing 'any of you', a body of believers

 

[steaver]

You are muddying issues.
False doctrine would never lead somebody to Christ. That is pretty obvious.
What Paul is addressing is DEPART FROM FAITH. this means his subject are people in faith in the first place. And they leave all that to follow demons.

I want to know how somebody who has abandoned his faith can be said to be in faith.

James 5:19-20 (KJV)
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins

Here is James amplifying depart-from-faith/ false doctrines. He is talking about sin but he could also be talking about apostasy. He clearly indicates possibility of DEATH. While I agree subscribing a false doctrine does not automatically mean hell, it is a possibility.....unless James was lying

PS
James was addressing 'any of you', a body of believers

It does not say "depart from faith". It says "depart from THE faith". Huge difference. There really is no grey area about this passage. Paul clearly defines departing from THE faith.

James also is speaking about doctrine and sin. Saving a soul from death could be speaking of physical death. Remember there were true believers in Corinth that "sleep" bc of their sinning (1 Cor 11:30)

Now your turn again to answer a question...

What is your explanation on these statements brother vooks?

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". Ro 6

"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.". Ro 11

:jesus:

 

[vooks]

It does not say "depart from faith". It says "depart from THE faith". Huge difference. There really is no grey area about this passage. Paul clearly defines departing from THE faith.

Now that you mention it,
THE Faith means one of a kind and ONLY Faith. How many faiths do you know of from Pauline epistles?

Peter talks of the unlearned who twist Paul writings to their own perdition

James also is speaking about doctrine and sin. Saving a soul from death could be speaking of physical death. Remember there were true believers in Corinth that "sleep" bc of their sinning (1 Cor 11:30)
[ /QUOTE]
James is speaking of prolonging the life of believers?
The depths you will sink to avoid the Truth!

James 5:20 (KJV)
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a SOUL from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
What death is a soul capable of dying?
Soul in case you don't know what it means let me help you

Matthew 10:28 (KJV)
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

Is it clear what SOUL is?

 

[JonC]

Me neither but you know Calvinism is a test of orthodoxy in some quarters, don't you?

I've been thinking about this comment. I know that you are right, mostly because of this board as Calvinism has not been that divisive in my own experience. But I also realize that my own denomination (the SBC) has used Calvinism as a test of orthodoxy insofar as its criteria for the IMB. Such a test is, I agree, wrong.

 

[steaver]

Now that you mention it,
THE Faith means one of a kind and ONLY Faith. How many faiths do you know of from Pauline epistles?

Ahh, I believe that is what I have been saying when I tried to get you to understand born-again.

James is speaking of prolonging the life of believers?
The depths you will sink to avoid the Truth!

James 5:20 (KJV)
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a SOUL from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
What death is a soul capable of dying?
Soul in case you don't know what it means let me help you

Matthew 10:28 (KJV)
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

Is it clear what SOUL is?

"psyche" is translated soul 58x, life 40x, heart 3x and mind 1x in the KJV bible.

YOU are a living soul, a PERSON.

Here are some other popular translations....

"you can be sure that whoever brings the sinner back will save that person from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins." NLT

"remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins." NIV

"let him know that whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his life from death and cover a multitude of sins." HCSB


I simply gave you a plausible application of the passage, and I gave you (1 Cor 11:30) as a biblical example of born-again believers dying physically due to their sin.

What we do know is that the passage does not give enough information to conclude that James is speaking of born of God believers losing their salvation, for once saved, all sins are forgiven, past, present and future. And no, this is not a licenses to sin.....raying:

Now your turn again to answer a question...


Quote:
What is your explanation on these statements brother vooks?

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". Ro 6

"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.". Ro 11

 

[vooks]

Ahh, I believe that is what I have been saying when I tried to get you to understand born-again.



"psyche" is translated soul 58x, life 40x, heart 3x and mind 1x in the KJV bible.

YOU are a living soul, a PERSON.

Here are some other popular translations....

"you can be sure that whoever brings the sinner back will save that person from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins." NLT

"remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins." NIV

"let him know that whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his life from death and cover a multitude of sins." HCSB

You are so amateur it's a pity.
What is the meaning of a soul in NT?

I simply gave you a plausible application of the passage, and I gave you (1 Cor 11:30) as a biblical example of born-again believers dying physically due to their sin.

1 Cor is no believers dying due to sins but due to ignorance

What we do know is that the passage does not give enough information to conclude that James is speaking of born of God believers losing their salvation, for once saved, all sins are forgiven, past, present and future. And no, this is not a licenses to sin.....raying:

Show me any other scripture in NT that speaks of soul death that is not talking of eternal damnation

Now your turn again to answer a question...


Quote:
What is your explanation on these statements brother vooks?

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". Ro 6

"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.". Ro 11

What is ther to explain in these verses?
Romans 6 is talking about God's relationship with Israel as a nation.
Do you think those who fell in the wilderness were being delivered to perish in the wilderness?

John 15:6 (KJV)
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Teach Jesus a thing or two about past,present and future sins when he is telling you he will cut you off. What becomes of cut off branches?

 

[vooks]

I've been thinking about this comment. I know that you are right, mostly because of this board as Calvinism has not been that divisive in my own experience. But I also realize that my own denomination (the SBC) has used Calvinism as a test of orthodoxy insofar as its criteria for the IMB. Such a test is, I agree, wrong.

It's quite unfortunate when men use human wisdom, theological constructs as test of orthodoxy

 

[steaver]

You are so amateur it's a pity.

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

What is the meaning of a soul in NT?

"psyche" is translated soul 58x, life 40x, heart 3x and mind 1x in the KJV bible.

YOU are a living soul, a PERSON.

Here are some other popular translations....

"you can be sure that whoever brings the sinner back will save that person from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins." NLT

"remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins." NIV

"let him know that whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his life from death and cover a multitude of sins." HCSB

1 Cor is no believers dying due to sins but due to ignorance

"For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep". (1 Cor 11:30)

Show me any other scripture in NT that speaks of soul death that is not talking of eternal damnation

And this would prove what? I already showed you the differing translations. James does not support your position of one losing eternal life once having it. That would contradict dozens of clearly expressed passages actually speaking on eternal life.

The eternal life God gave you is Christ in you and Jesus makes it crystal clear He will never leave you nor forsake you. So how could you ever get away from Him seeing He lives in you by the miracle of regeneration, a new creation with a new heart, joined as one with God forever.

What is there to explain in these verses?
Romans 6 is talking about God's relationship with Israel as a nation.
Do you think those who fell in the wilderness were being delivered to perish in the wilderness?

Here it is again....

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". Ro 6

"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.". Ro 11

Do you notice eternal life, which the born of God are given in Christ, is a gift? Do you notice the gifts of God are irrevocable?

 

[vooks]

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.



"psyche" is translated soul 58x, life 40x, heart 3x and mind 1x in the KJV bible.

YOU are a living soul, a PERSON.

Here are some other popular translations....

"you can be sure that whoever brings the sinner back will save that person from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins." NLT

"remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins." NIV

"let him know that whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his life from death and cover a multitude of sins." HCSB



"For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep". (1 Cor 11:30)



And this would prove what? I already showed you the differing translations. James does not support your position of one losing eternal life once having it. That would contradict dozens of clearly expressed passages actually speaking on eternal life.

The eternal life God gave you is Christ in you and Jesus makes it crystal clear He will never leave you nor forsake you. So how could you ever get away from Him seeing He lives in you by the miracle of regeneration, a new creation with a new heart, joined as one with God forever.



Here it is again....

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". Ro 6

"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.". Ro 11

Do you notice eternal life, which the born of God are given in Christ, is a gift? Do you notice the gifts of God are irrevocable?

Clearly you have run out of your wits and have resorted to repeating yourself.
Keep living like Lucifer and you will never see Jesus.

Revelation 3:5 (ESV)
5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

Why won't Jesus blot their name from the book of life something He is incapable of doing in the first place?

 

[steaver]

Clearly you have run out of your wits and have resorted to repeating yourself.
Keep living like Lucifer and you will never see Jesus.

It appeared you missed or didn't read my answer since you asked the same question I just answered.

Not sure what you mean by "living like Lucifer". Those born of God do not live like Lucifer if you mean in rebellion against God. Having God the very part of your new birth would negate that idea...

 

[vooks]

It appeared you missed or didn't read my answer since you asked the same question I just answered.

Not sure what you mean by "living like Lucifer". Those born of God do not live like Lucifer if you mean in rebellion against God. Having God the very part of your new birth would negate that idea...

And if they don't or are incapable, then all the warnings against sin are redundant

 

[vooks]

Revelation 3:5 (ESV)
5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.
Since it's rather clear that Jesus can't blot out the names, why is such a promise relevant to those who conquer? What consolation is it to the saints?

And what about those who don't conquer?
Wait, I know you will go like true saints conquer. But in this case, is it not silly promising stuff to those who conquer yet all conquer? It's more like saying if you are parents then you will have kids

 

[steaver]

Revelation 3:5 (ESV)
5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.
Since it's rather clear that Jesus can't blot out the names, why is such a promise relevant to those who conquer? What consolation is it to the saints?

And what about those who don't conquer?
Wait, I know you will go like true saints conquer. But in this case, is it not silly promising stuff to those who conquer yet all conquer? It's more like saying if you are parents then you will have kids

Why would Jesus tell a saint (one who believes on Him) that they must conquer? Conquer what? Faith? They already have faith. Are you suggesting that one is saved by faith plus works, or faith plus no sinning?

 

[vooks]

Why would Jesus tell a saint (one who believes on Him) that they must conquer? Conquer what? Faith? They already have faith. Are you suggesting that one is saved by faith plus works, or faith plus no sinning?

That's my question to you, the need for conquering is moot seeing they are predestined to conquer

 

[steaver]

That's my question to you, the need for conquering is moot seeing they are predestined to conquer

Predestined to conquer what? Unbelief? The only thing that qualifies one for eternal life is faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[vooks]

Predestined to conquer what? Unbelief? The only thing that qualifies one for eternal life is faith in Jesus Christ.

And no faith equally disqualifies you:tonofbricks:

Hebrews 6:4-6 (ESV)
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Little imagination is required to comprehend Jesus' ABIDE message
John 15:6 (ESV)
6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned

 

[steaver]

And no faith equally disqualifies you:tonofbricks:

Hebrews 6:4-6 (ESV)
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Little imagination is required to comprehend Jesus' ABIDE message
John 15:6 (ESV)
6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned

Your jumping around. You brought up conquering so tell me what it is you believe one must conquer....then we can move on to all the other passages you might think opposes eternal life.