Perseverance of Saints is.....actually it is Eternal INsecurity

[vooks]

To be denied something implies that you either deserved it and were denied, or your earned it and were denied. NNE deserves Eternal Life, and NNE has earned Eternal Life so Eternal Life is not something that can be denied to anyone.

Everyone deserves Hell, that is the the plain and simple truth. We all have sinned and fell short of the glory of God, and the wages of sin is death. We both deserve hell, and have earned hell. Only hell can be denied to a sinner, and that is done by the Grace of God, through Faith Alone in the the death and resurrection of Jesus.

You are splitting hairs with impressions
All of us deserve hell I agree
What I disagree is the notion that from this hell-bent(pun) pile, He picks some and 'dooms' them for heaven leaving the rest to burn.

God is not offering a lifeline to humanity at the cross, He is merely grooming the few he selected for eternity with Him. Calvary is essentially for these few.

God who is not willing that ANY may perish (2Peter 3:9),and who gave His only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER (John 3:16) believe that in Him may not perish,is ONLY concerned with these few.

Can you smell contradiction?

 

[vooks]

It is for those who have the wrong understanding of it.

Yeah right. It is always misunderstood when questioned

This is a fair and honest question you pose here, mon ami. When Adam fell, he did so of his own accord, his own choice, his own volition. God never tempted him, never shoved him towards that tree, never twisted his arm and made him eat of it; Adam freely chose to eat. Now, when he fell, we fell, he being our representative. God would have been holy, just, good, but not merciful, if he chose to not save even one sinner.

Get to the point please!

This is where predestination and election kicks in. God chose a # that no one can #, gave them to the Lamb slain from the creation of the world to die for, atone for, lay in the tomb 3 days and nights for, to arise for, to ascend for, and finally come back for. If God had chosen to save 'goose-egg', would He still be just, mon ami?

Death befell the entire humanity but life to the lucky few like yourself right?

Was God just to withhold grace from Satan and his angels when they sinned? Remember, Angels are created beings too, just not in God's image and likeness.

There is a lot we know not about Satan and his angels. We should not extrapolate human problem to Satan, known into unknown is recipe for chaos

Was God just to punish His Son on the cross, for sins He never committed?

Christ elected to save man, to bear the punishment for our sin. So, what's your point?

Again, mon ami, Jesus told the woman who had been caught in adultery to 'go and sin no more.' Now, was that a command or a mere suggestion? Was she able to 'go and sin no more?'

Isn't it obvious the sin no more is adultery?

Were you able to 'go and sin no more' after God saved you? God does give commands we can not keep, and punishes people for not doing what He commanded.

The law was our schoolmaster.

Look at the Jews after God commanded them to keep the Law. Look where it says to 'be holy as He is holy.' This is His way of showing us our need of Him and not our self-reliance, monsieur.

self-reliance....you are good with jargon.
Now, when Peter preaches repentance and exhorts his countrymen to save themselves from the untoward generation, was he preaching self-reliance?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yeah right. It is always misunderstood when questioned

Get to the point please!

Death befell the entire humanity but life to the lucky few like yourself right?


There is a lot we know not about Satan and his angels. We should not extrapolate human problem to Satan, known into unknown is recipe for chaos


Christ elected to save man, to bear the punishment for our sin. So, what's your point?

Isn't it obvious the sin no more is adultery?

The law was our schoolmaster.

self-reliance....you are good with jargon.
Now, when Peter preaches repentance and exhorts his countrymen to save themselves from the untoward generation, was he preaching self-reliance?

I am very tolerant with people, but you are, putting it bluntly, a jerk.

 

[blessedwife318]

You are splitting hairs with impressions
All of us deserve hell I agree
What I disagree is the notion that from this hell-bent(pun) pile, He picks some and 'dooms' them for heaven leaving the rest to burn.

I don't think I'm splitting hairs. On more then one post you have made comments about people being denied Eternal life like it is owed to us. We are not owed anything but hell, and that does seem to be a truth you have realized yet.
You say we all agree deserve hell, but your post do not sound that way.

 

[vooks]

I am very tolerant with people, but you are, putting it bluntly, a jerk.

I am very patient with jokers, but you are, putting it bluntly, a spammer

 

[vooks]

I don't think I'm splitting hairs. On more then one post you have made comments about people being denied Eternal life like it is owed to us. We are not owed anything but hell, and that does seem to be a truth you have realized yet.
You say we all agree deserve hell, but your post do not sound that way.

When I said some are denied eternal life I simply mean God does not grant it to them.And that's a very small part of my argument. Please respond to the substance of my post.

 

[steaver]

1. How can one depart from something they never had?
2. Why would Holy Spirit sound a warning about departing from faith if the 'departees' are already lost, objects of wrath?
3. How should the elect like yourself respond to this departure seeing it don't affect them?

This is a back and forth debate. You have to answer my questions too. Do you know as a matter of personal experience the Spirit of Jesus Christ is in you? If you do not, then there is no way you can understand this issue.

 

[annsni]

Your theology summarized.
1. Humanity tripped and earned a one-way ticket to hell.
2. But God walking through the mangled wreck of hell fodder picks a few lucky fellas like annsni and whisks them to His Bosom.
3. The rest of the unlucky folks....well, they do what they gotta do, that is BURN!

The lucky annsni is mighty glad he was lucky, didn't earn it, couldn't save himself.......the unlucky ones, it wouldn't matter if Jesus was crucified 1001 times, they are so unlucky and DOOMED!

John 3:16 (KJV)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

Not WHOSOEVER John, that's too general, it's just the lucky few

That's just exactly what the Scriptures tell us. Glad you understand!

 

[vooks]

This is a back and forth debate. You have to answer my questions too. Do you know as a matter of personal experience the Spirit of Jesus Christ is in you? If you do not, then there is no way you can understand this issue.

Yes I do.
Now please answer my questions without dithering

 

[steaver]

Yes I do.
Now please answer my questions without dithering

Ok then. That makes all your questions irrelevant. Since you know Jesus Christ is in you, there is no way you could ever stop believing He is God. Bc you have a personal knowledge living in you which you cannot escape nor would ever desire to escape.

 

[vooks]

Ok then. That makes all your questions irrelevant. Since you know Jesus Christ is in you, there is no way you could ever stop believing He is God. Bc you have a personal knowledge living in you which you cannot escape nor would ever desire to escape.

This is circular reasoning.
Who are the subject of these falling away warnings if not believers?
If only fake believers fall away, why would God be concerned about them seeing they are already damned?

 

[steaver]

This is circular reasoning.
Who are the subject of these falling away warnings if not believers?
If only fake believers fall away, why would God be concerned about them seeing they are already damned?

You have to begin with what it cannot be. Regeneration is Christ becoming one with you in Spirit. The only reason you cry out to the Father is due to the Spirit being one with you. It's not the old you and the Spirit can't move my along side. You are a new creation. This cannot be undone for Christ said He will never leave you nor forsake you. How do you suppose you can get away from Him? He is one with you. He cannot deny Himself. Even if you become faithless and shipwrecked. Christ will see you through any valley. You cannot stop believing even if you tried. Ever try it? Can't be done.

 

[vooks]

You have to begin with what it cannot be. Regeneration is Christ becoming one with you in Spirit. The only reason you cry out to the Father is due to the Spirit being one with you. It's not the old you and the Spirit can't move my along side. You are a new creation. This cannot be undone for Christ said He will never leave you nor forsake you. How do you suppose you can get away from Him? He is one with you. He cannot deny Himself. Even if you become faithless and shipwrecked. Christ will see you through any valley. You cannot stop believing even if you tried. Ever try it? Can't be done.

So, what does departing from faith mean for you? What are the risks that warranted Holy Spirit to expressly speak about it? What is at stake?

And herein is another illogical conclusion of yours; if losing faith does not 'unsave' one, then one does not need faith to be saved in the first place. One is saved regardless of the gospel. The gospel is at best an unnecessary ritual.

This point was eloquently captured by @DHK in another thread. There are no conversion moments for the Elect; they were born born-again, they have always been saved.

 

[steaver]

And herein is another illogical conclusion of yours; if losing faith does not 'unsave' one, then one does not need faith to be saved in the first place. One is saved regardless of the gospel. The gospel is at best an unnecessary ritual.

The born of God can have lack of faith moments, we still carry along the flesh which is weak. But we are focusing on if one can stop believing Jesus Christ is Lord while they have Jesus Christ the Lord always witnessing from within. He lives in you, you cannot escape Him nor would you have any desire to because you have been born of God.

What I have found with believers who get caught up in misinterpreting some of the "warning" scriptures is that deep in their heart they really don't believe THEY would ever stop believing in Jesus Christ personally, but rather like to tell others who they don't see walking the talk that God could take back the gift.

You can't stop believing once Christ recreates you. So how else do you think you could lose your salvation? Poor works? Sins?

This is why the Christian faith stands alone from all other faiths. Ye must be born again!!!!!!!!!!!! If you can lose your salvation, which is Christ in you, then being born of God has no meaning. What would be the point?

 

[JonC]

Calvinism explains these as not being elect. This means elect can only be called thus upon death if they died in faith!

I'm not interested how Calvinism explains it (I am not a Calvinist), but Scripture actually explains it the same way. Throughout our lives we are to "test ourselves" that we are in the faith, that we are among the "elect." Scripture deals with us as saved, being saved, and will be saved (many times inclusively). Often Scripture deals with those who the Body of Christ, and this body is presented as the elect. These are people who have been saved, are being saved, and in the end will have been found to be saved. The problem is not how Calvinism explains the elect (they are right, those who fall away were not the "elect") but in how we focus on that one point in time when we "were saved" at the exclusion of everything else. In other words, Perseverance is biblical in that those who God saves (all three tenses) will persevere because this is also salvation. The difficulty is, IMHO, knowing when one's faith is genuine (when one is a new creation) as compared to when one's faith is a product of his/her own righteousness.

 

[vooks]

The born of God can have lack of faith moments, we still carry along the flesh which is weak. But we are focusing on if one can stop believing Jesus Christ is Lord while they have Jesus Christ the Lord always witnessing from within. He lives in you, you cannot escape Him nor would you have any desire to because you have been born of God.

You are skirting around issues.
If DEPART FROM FAITH means 'lack of faith moments', what is it such a big deal that Holy Spirit EXPRESSLY speaks about it?

What I have found with believers who get caught up in misinterpreting some of the "warning" scriptures is that deep in their heart they really don't believe THEY would ever stop believing in Jesus Christ personally, but rather like to tell others who they don't see walking the talk that God could take back the gift.

Psychoanalysis is a good subject. Let's do scriptures for now

You can't stop believing once Christ recreates you. So how else do you think you could lose your salvation? Poor works? Sins?

DEPART FROM FAITH
Why are you arguing with scriptures? Where would you be standing outside faith?

This is why the Christian faith stands alone from all other faiths. Ye must be born again!!!!!!!!!!!! If you can lose your salvation, which is Christ in you, then being born of God has no meaning. What would be the point?

human wisdom. Then all these warnings are meaningless

 

[vooks]

I'm not interested how Calvinism explains it (I am not a Calvinist),

Me neither but you know Calvinism is a test of orthodoxy in some quarters, don't you?

but Scripture actually explains it the same way.

Really, indulge me

Throughout our lives we are to "test ourselves" that we are in the faith, that we are among the "elect."

This must be a mighty meaningless scripture because test or no test, your election stands. What is a man who discovers he is not elect supposed to do with his life?:laugh:

Scripture deals with us as saved, being saved, and will be saved (many times inclusively).

With one too few IFs

Often Scripture deals with those who the Body of Christ, and this body is presented as the elect. These are people who have been saved, are being saved, and in the end will have been found to be saved.

So scriptures assumes all as elect yet some are fakes who will fall away, right?

The problem is not how Calvinism explains the elect (they are right, those who fall away were not the "elect") but in how we focus on that one point in time when we "were saved" at the exclusion of everything else.

And this focus will end up being an exercise in futility for those who thought they were elect but they are not

In other words, Perseverance is biblical in that those who God saves (all three tenses) will persevere because this is also salvation.

But is unbiblical in that, there is no way of telling who is and who is not elect..it's all guesswork

The difficulty is, IMHO, knowing when one's faith is genuine (when one is a new creation) as compared to when one's faith is a product of his/her own righteousness.

it is not enough to believe in Jesus, it is not enough to repent, it is not even enough to believe you are elect....all those are trial and error for you could not be elect from the word go

 

[steaver]

You are skirting around issues.
If DEPART FROM FAITH means 'lack of faith moments', what is it such a big deal that Holy Spirit EXPRESSLY speaks about it?

Why does the Holy Spirit EXPRESSLY speak about the born of God being recreated as one with Jesus Christ? Christ in you!!!

Each "warning" you see in scripture has an application which must be kept in the context being expressed.

Let's look at the first passage you bring up....

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

"Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;"

"Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth."

There is no mystery here as to what Paul is speaking of when he says "some shall depart from the faith". Paul clearly defines what he means when he says this, he is speaking about wrong teaching. Do you see anywhere in this passage where Paul says the person teaching these wrong doctrines is now unsaved?

The RCC forbids marrying, does this alone make them unsaved? The SDA forbids certain meat eating, does this alone make them unsaved? In this passage "departing from the faith" is clearly a departing from sound doctrine which we see playing out all throughout the body of Christ. Wrong teaching does not in itself mean a person is lost, depending on the teaching itself.

With that said, there are other passages which do speak of those who were once part of the church physically by appearance, but yet found to be un-regenerated in spirit.

This is why the Christian faith stands alone from all other faiths. Ye must be born again!!!!!!!!!!!! If you can lose your salvation, which is Christ in you, then being born of God has no meaning. What would be the point? You call this human wisdom???

You don't think the Christian faith stands alone with being born-again?

 

[steaver]

What is your explanation on these statements brother vooks?

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". Ro 6

"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.". Ro 11

 

[JonC]

This must be a mighty meaningless scripture because test or no test, your election stands.

Nah....even when we don't understand Scripture stands. That particular instruction may be meaningless to you, but that doesn't make it meaningless.


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