Perseverance of Saints is.....actually it is Eternal INsecurity

[vooks]

If you do not understand born-again, then you are yet in your sins. Christian faith is a know so faith in Christ. It is not a I hope it is true kinda faith. I have a personal knowledge that Jesus Christ is God. How could I ever stop believing in that which I have personal knowledge of being an absolute truth?

You can't answer a simple question.
1 Timothy 4:1 (KJV)
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

What is DEPART FROM FAITH?

 

[annsni]

You are saved as long as you remain in faith

Then you have reason to boast, do you not? You can boast in your own ability to remain in faith and thus save yourself from death. Is this what Scripture teaches?

 

[Revmitchell]

Then you have reason to boast, do you not? You can boast in your own ability to remain in faith and thus save yourself from death. Is this what Scripture teaches?

I am not in the "you can lose your salvation" camp but this argument, imho, is not correct. It is in error to suggest that man's cooperation with God in salvation must be completely removed in order for God to get all the credit and all the glory.

The truth is if it is God who set up the plan to have man respond or not respond then man still does not acquire any of the credit and is allowed no room to boast.

 

[steaver]

You can't answer a simple question.
1 Timothy 4:1 (KJV)
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

What is DEPART FROM FAITH?

Departing from the Faith has been played out in churches since Christ returned to heaven. It is those who investigate the Faith, enjoy the fellowship for awhile, yet never come to the point of receiving the Holy Spirit promised. When they find out the real cost of discipleship they bail.

Study what being born-again is sometime. See if it speaks of you. Only you can know yourself. You could fool me all day long. Is the Spirit of Christ in you?????????

 

[JohnDeereFan]

So next time a Calvinist proudly boasts of being elect ( and I have never met any who wasn't ),ask them which tea leaves they read

Or, rather than being a snotty, petulant little brat, you might ask them where in scripture they find their beliefs in the ability of Christ to keep their salvation.

 

[annsni]

I am not in the "you can lose your salvation" camp but this argument, imho, is not correct. It is in error to suggest that man's cooperation with God in salvation must be completely removed in order for God to get all the credit and all the glory.

The truth is if it is God who set up the plan to have man respond or not respond then man still does not acquire any of the credit and is allowed no room to boast.

If our salvation is based on us having faith and if we lose faith we can lose our salvation, then the power of our salvation is completely in our hands, is it not?

 

[Revmitchell]

If our salvation is based on us having faith and if we lose faith we can lose our salvation, then the power of our salvation is completely in our hands, is it not?

No, Since God determined how we should be saved, why we should be saved, and the means by which salvation should come, then it is also true that regardless of the response He requires from us He has complete sovereignty over all men's salvation.

Since God is the creator who gave man the ability to reason and to decide then when He gives men the opportunity to decide to receive Him or to not receive Him He has been completely sovereign in the entire thing.

If it is His will that we should decide or not then it is still His will.

 

[vooks]

Then you have reason to boast, do you not? You can boast in your own ability to remain in faith and thus save yourself from death. Is this what Scripture teaches?

Do you need faith at all to be saved?

 

[vooks]

Departing from the Faith has been played out in churches since Christ returned to heaven. It is those who investigate the Faith, enjoy the fellowship for awhile, yet never come to the point of receiving the Holy Spirit promised. When they find out the real cost of discipleship they bail.

Study what being born-again is sometime. See if it speaks of you. Only you can know yourself. You could fool me all day long. Is the Spirit of Christ in you?????????

1. How can one depart from something they never had?
2. Why would Holy Spirit sound a warning about departing from faith if the 'departees' are already lost, objects of wrath?
3. How should the elect like yourself respond to this departure seeing it don't affect them?

 

[vooks]

If our salvation is based on us having faith and if we lose faith we can lose our salvation, then the power of our salvation is completely in our hands, is it not?

Flip the question around.
Since salvation is entirely in God's hands, are we not forced to conclude that damnation (absence of salvation) is equally in His hands?

On what basis would God punish men for eternities seeing He denied them salvation?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Flip the question around.
Since salvation is entirely in God's hands, can we also conclude that damnation (absence of salvation) is equally in His hands?

Of course.

On what basis would God punish men for eternities seeing He denied them salvation?

On the basis of their sin.

Contradiction galore.

No, son, a contradiction is when you state that two opposite things must be true. I said no such thing.

If God elects not to SAVE you, if He denies you eternal life, why would He punish you for denying you life yet you were totally helpless?

Because of your sin.

Men will not not end up in hell because they sinned but rather because God elected not to save them from their sins! He just let them burn

Then it's your word against God's, because the Bible is pretty clear that men go to Hell as the result of their sin.

 

[vooks]

Of course.

On the basis of their sin.

Contradiction galore.
If God elects not to SAVE you, if He denies you eternal life, why would He punish you for denying you life yet you were totally helpless? What were you supposed to do in your helplessness? Jesus death was of no help for you! It would not matter if he died or not seeing you were marked for destruction.

Men will not not end up in hell because they sinned but rather because God elected not to save them from their sins! He just let them burn. That is the logical conclusion of individual election/predestination. For each that God elects to save, He elects a thousand others to burn no matter what

 

[annsni]

No, Since God determined how we should be saved, why we should be saved, and the means by which salvation should come, then it is also true that regardless of the response He requires from us He has complete sovereignty over all men's salvation.

Since God is the creator who gave man the ability to reason and to decide then when He gives men the opportunity to decide to receive Him or to not receive Him He has been completely sovereign in the entire thing.

If it is His will that we should decide or not then it is still His will.

Totally agree with you.

 

[annsni]

Flip the question around.
Since salvation is entirely in God's hands, are we not forced to conclude that damnation (absence of salvation) is equally in His hands?

On what basis would God punish men for eternities seeing He denied them salvation?

Damnation is entirely in man's hands. We are damned because of our own sin. It is not God's sin that sends us to hell.

 

[Revmitchell]

Damnation is entirely in man's hands. We are damned because of our own sin. It is not God's sin that sends us to hell.

If it is true that God refuses to offer them grace then your statement cannot be true as well.

 

[PreachTony]

Damnation is entirely in man's hands. We are damned because of our own sin. It is not God's sin that sends us to hell.

This remains the biggest hang up I find with predestination. If God has predestined only a few to salvation, then why is it not likewise correct to say God has predestined the remainder to eternal damnation? At least, from what I can tell, John Piper owns up that "double predestination" is a requisite. After all, if God has not "elected" someone to eternal life, then how are they still to blame for their own damnation? They cannot change their fate, yet they are somehow responsible. God demands all men everywhere to repent, yet never provides them the opportunity to repent, and then God blames them for never doing what He never gave them the opportunity to do in the first place.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

According to Revelation 7, there will be a vast crowd of redeemed people, so large that no man can number it standing before the throne of God. I'd appreciate the answer to two questions:

1. What are they crying out in a loud voice?
2. Would the crowd be any bigger under Arminianism than it is under Calvinism? What make you think so?

 

[vooks]

Damnation is entirely in man's hands. We are damned because of our own sin. It is not God's sin that sends us to hell.

Your theology summarized.
1. Humanity tripped and earned a one-way ticket to hell.
2. But God walking through the mangled wreck of hell fodder picks a few lucky fellas like annsni and whisks them to His Bosom.
3. The rest of the unlucky folks....well, they do what they gotta do, that is BURN!

The lucky annsni is mighty glad he was lucky, didn't earn it, couldn't save himself.......the unlucky ones, it wouldn't matter if Jesus was crucified 1001 times, they are so unlucky and DOOMED!

John 3:16 (KJV)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

Not WHOSOEVER John, that's too general, it's just the lucky few

 

[blessedwife318]

Contradiction galore.
If God elects not to SAVE you, if He denies you eternal life, why would He punish you for denying you life yet you were totally helpless? What were you supposed to do in your helplessness? Jesus death was of no help for you! It would not matter if he died or not seeing you were marked for destruction.

Men will not not end up in hell because they sinned but rather because God elected not to save them from their sins! He just let them burn. That is the logical conclusion of individual election/predestination. For each that God elects to save, He elects a thousand others to burn no matter what

To be denied something implies that you either deserved it and were denied, or your earned it and were denied. NNE deserves Eternal Life, and NNE has earned Eternal Life so Eternal Life is not something that can be denied to anyone.

Everyone deserves Hell, that is the the plain and simple truth. We all have sinned and fell short of the glory of God, and the wages of sin is death. We both deserve hell, and have earned hell. Only hell can be denied to a sinner, and that is done by the Grace of God, through Faith Alone in the the death and resurrection of Jesus.

 

[SovereignGrace]

This remains the biggest hang up I find with predestination.

It is for those who have the wrong understanding of it.

If God has predestined only a few to salvation, then why is it not likewise correct to say God has predestined the remainder to eternal damnation?

This is a fair and honest question you pose here, mon ami. When Adam fell, he did so of his own accord, his own choice, his own volition. God never tempted him, never shoved him towards that tree, never twisted his arm and made him eat of it; Adam freely chose to eat. Now, when he fell, we fell, he being our representative. God would have been holy, just, good, but not merciful, if he chose to not save even one sinner. This is where predestination and election kicks in. God chose a # that no one can #, gave them to the Lamb slain from the creation of the world to die for, atone for, lay in the tomb 3 days and nights for, to arise for, to ascend for, and finally come back for. If God had chosen to save 'goose-egg', would He still be just, mon ami? Was God just to withhold grace from Satan and his angels when they sinned? Remember, Angels are created beings too, just not in God's image and likeness. Was God just to punish His Son on the cross, for sins He never committed?

At least, from what I can tell, John Piper owns up that "double predestination" is a requisite. After all, if God has not "elected" someone to eternal life, then how are they still to blame for their own damnation? They cannot change their fate, yet they are somehow responsible. God demands all men everywhere to repent, yet never provides them the opportunity to repent, and then God blames them for never doing what He never gave them the opportunity to do in the first place.

Again, mon ami, Jesus told the woman who had been caught in adultery to 'go and sin no more.' Now, was that a command or a mere suggestion? Was she able to 'go and sin no more?' Were you able to 'go and sin no more' after God saved you? God does give commands we can not keep, and punishes people for not doing what He commanded. Look at the Jews after God commanded them to keep the Law. Look where it says to 'be holy as He is holy.' This is His way of showing us our need of Him and not our self-reliance, monsieur.