Perseverance of the Saints

[DHK]

Hi DHK,


In terms of your choice to put your faith in Christ as the basis for your salvation, was that intrinsic ability to choose which you possessed before you were saved infallible?

Man's ability to choose is God-given and never infallible. By virtue of his nature he is a fallible creature prone to fallible decisions. I did not have to make that decision at that time. I could have deferred to a later time.

In other words was it possible for you to err in your choice.

Why does a person make a choice? I buy my groceries a store A because they offer better deals than store B. I went to college A because taking all the factors into consideration the education was just as good as B, and they were financially more affordable. I chose Christ over "Islam" (for example) because Christ demonstrated that He is God and the Savior of the world by His resurrection. Mohammed is still in the grave. He was an illiterate camel driver prone to dreams and visions. Others wrote down what he said. Their book, the Koran, is contradictory in many places and came after the Bible by more than 500 years. Faith is based on knowledge. Faith is not blind. I choose according to the knowledge I have. Christianity is not mystical. The words of Christ were verified. If the resurrection did not happen and what Christ said is not true, then he is the biggest charlatan, liar and deceiver that ever walked the face of this earth, and has had millions of followers who have been deceived in becoming martyrs for him.
The object of my faith is Christ. It is Christ, because I believe who he says he is--God come in the flesh--the Creator of the universe, my Maker, my savior, and I his servant.

Was it possible for you to not quite believe enough, or slightly misdirect the object of your faith, or hold just a little bit back and thereby negate your salvation?

I was saved as an adult out of a religion that I don't believe was Christian. I never heard the gospel until I heard it as an adult. The first time I heard it I got saved. It was not an emotional experience. It was one that required thought and reason.

What if you were just emotionally manipulated into making this choice, or had second thoughts the next day? What if your motive was not pure? How can you be sure that the choice you made was executed sufficiently to obtain salvation? Is there a threshold of faith which must be met in order to secure salvation?

The "what if's" are all speculation because they all are not true. They did not happen. What do you mean by "threshold of faith"? There is no such thing. Either you believe or you don't. Did the resurrection happen? Yes or no. There is no threshold. You either believe or you don't.

I believe Jesus is the author and finisher of my faith. I believe the basis of my salvation is Christ's work on the cross and I believe in him and his work applied to me. I believe my faith bears a perfection which I could never muster because he is its author and finisher. I believe my salvation is secure despite myself because I complete thoroughly and totally rely on him for every aspect of my salvation. Do I believe? Is my faith my own? Yes, absolutely, but its source is Christ himself and the only reason I will stand in his presence in that day is because of his grace and attention directed towards me personally and particularly. Perhaps many men better than I could trust in the faith they can muster within themselves to effect grace upon themselves, but I am afraid I would fail in even this and I love your tag line for this very reason.

How do I know, how do I believe, how am I persuaded, how did I commit it unto him? I can only answer all these by his grace shed upon me abundantly.

I agree with almost everything that you say.
Which part do you think I would disagree with?

 

[WITBOTL]

Hi DHK,

thanks for replying. Actually I believe that you do agree with what I said I sincerely do. If I am reading correctly I think where we have a difference is in the source of faith. Is it an intrinsic ability in us, or is it an ability bestowed upon us by grace. I think you are saying that man possesses that ability apart from grace and I was poorly trying to argue that I believe I have the ability of faith because of grace. My argument is that I can start to poke holes in my salvation if I am relying on an ability that I possess intrinsically because I have no confidence in any of my abilities as it pertains to salvation. If my faith is grace itself then it is bullet proof.

I hope I have understood where we differ...

 

[DHK]

Hi DHK,

thanks for replying. Actually I believe that you do agree with what I said I sincerely do. If I am reading correctly I think where we have a difference is in the source of faith. Is it an intrinsic ability in us, or is it an ability bestowed upon us by grace. I think you are saying that man possesses that ability apart from grace and I was poorly trying to argue that I believe I have the ability of faith because of grace. My argument is that I can start to poke holes in my salvation if I am relying on an ability that I possess intrinsically because I have no confidence in any of my abilities as it pertains to salvation. If my faith is grace itself then it is bullet proof.

I hope I have understood where we differ...

Yes, the source of our faith before salvation (not after), is no doubt where we differ. Here is my position.

Faith in the Bible is presented as: 1. a spiritual gift, and 2. a fruit of the spirit. Either way, God would never give a spiritual gift of the fruit of the Spirit to the unregenerate. That is an unbiblical stand, one that I could never agree with.
Secondly, the Bible clearly says that "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." It never says that it is given directly by God to the unbeliever, but rather comes by hearing the Word of God. That is why I explained in my previous post, when I became convinced of the message of the gospel I had the faith to believe it, as opposed to other religions. Faith is based on facts. Our faith is not blind. It is based on the facts of the gospel: the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Thus the faith, must be my faith. God does not give faith to the unregenerate. To help me in my faith, the Holy Spirit convicts of sin.
In John 3:5, Jesus said: Except you are born of water and of the Spirit you cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
But in 1Pet.1:23, Peter writes:
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:23)
--You must be born again of the Spirit.
--You must be born again of the Word.
--Both are necessary. The Spirit works through the Word, as one puts their faith in the message of the gospel in order to be saved.

 

[WITBOTL]

So are you saying that the faith which preserves the Christian is different than the faith that saves him? In other words is the faith which preserves him that faith which is a spiritual gift but the faith which saves him is born of a natural ability which is made active upon the hearing and enlightening knowledge of the gospel? Do you believe it is the intellectual knowledge of the gospel which convinces the man to put his (intrinsic ability) faith in Christ?

 

[DHK]

So are you saying that the faith which preserves the Christian is different than the faith that saves him? In other words is the faith which preserves him that faith which is a spiritual gift but the faith which saves him is born of a natural ability which is made active upon the hearing and enlightening knowledge of the gospel? Do you believe it is the intellectual knowledge of the gospel which convinces the man to put his (intrinsic ability) faith in Christ?

Do you believe it is the intellectual knowledge of the gospel which convinces the man to put his (intrinsic ability) faith in Christ?
Must have that intellectual knowledge, believe it from the heart, and at the same time be convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit. We gain knowledge ourselves and we put faith in it ourselves. We do that everyday as we put our faith in others; our trust, our confidence.

After Christ, by the power of His Spirit, comes and dwells within the believer, then the believer has access to a much greater power. He can do all things that strengthen him through Christ Jesus. God has promised never to tempt/test him above that he is able but always to give a way of escape that he may be able to bear it. There is nothing that is able to separate the believer from the love of Christ (unless it be sin). And this is the victory that overcomes the world--even our faith. What a tremendous life we have as believers in Christ!

 

[WITBOTL]

I would say (and suspect and hope you would agree) that we gain that knowledge through the operation and power of the Holy Spirit and we put our faith in Christ also due to the operation of the Holy Spirit on our hearts. I think we would both agree that without the operation of the Holy Spirit at our salvation we would not be saved. Do we not agree?

 

[kyredneck]

....Faith in the Bible is presented as: 1. a spiritual gift, and 2. a fruit of the spirit. Either way, God would never give a spiritual gift of the fruit of the Spirit to the unregenerate. That is an unbiblical stand, one that I could never agree with....

You have just presented the strongest argument for regeneration before conversion.

I would say (and suspect and hope you would agree) that we gain that knowledge through the operation and power of the Holy Spirit and we put our faith in Christ also due to the operation of the Holy Spirit on our hearts. I think we would both agree that without the operation of the Holy Spirit at our salvation we would not be saved. Do we not agree?

I definitely would agree with you.

 

[psalms109:31]

Trust in God

Trust in God has always been the answer, those who have been elected to enter salvation have been cut out for unbelief, so they could not enter.

Trust in God has been the theme through out the whole Holy Scripture. We know through the word of God that trust is not a work and God doesn't consider it a work.

When you trust in Christ you know you are saved, because He will not lose one He has been given. We will preserve.

They will say it isn't trust from them, but election from God, but you can see trust from them is a part of it.

In the end we will preserve, why because of our trust in Jesus God has credit to us righteousness that comes from Christ.

Trust in God has always been the answer not something that you have but you still can't enter because of unbelief.

My main concern is that they come to Christ, listen and learn from Him.
I do believe in election and elect chosen from the womb, but also know God is including with them those who hear the Gospel of their salvation having believed.

Since God will save those who trust in His Son Jesus Christ, I welcome you and you will preserve. I am told to encourage belief and for you to continue in the belief that you had at first, not that you might lose salvation, but for you to be light for the world

If man does not come it isn't because of God not wanting them to come, because God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. It is because of their own evil desire and God will give them over to it.

Faith is not pride my brothers and sisters, it has come from God through His word and you trust in God, and don't let man make you afraid to express it.

 

[psalms109:31]

should read

I am told to encourage belief and for you to continue in the belief that you had at first,

This should read

I am told to encourage belief and for you to continue in the confidence that you had at first,

Our belief can change but faith that comes from God through His word can never change.

 

[DHK]

You have just presented the strongest argument for regeneration before conversion.

No I haven't. In fact if you believe that it would be directly against all that the Bible teaches concerning soteriology.
Here again is what I said:

....Faith in the Bible is presented as: 1. a spiritual gift, and 2. a fruit of the spirit. Either way, God would never give a spiritual gift of the fruit of the Spirit to the unregenerate. That is an unbiblical stand, one that I could never agree with....

Thus I conclude that you believe:
Unsaved people mimicking God's gifts such as Simon Magnus who wanted it for profit, are actually regenerated. BTW that is where we get the term "simony" from.
Every "faith healer" today such as Benny Hinn claims to have faith from God. According to you that is proof that they are regenerated. Benny Hinn believes there are nine persons in the trinity.

Regeneration does not take place before salvation. That is not a biblical concept and cannot be backed up with Scripture. Neither can the concept that God gives faith to the unregenerate. This is such an unbiblical concept I am floored to hear such a belief coming from Baptists. Does God also give love (agape), illumination, spiritual discernment, and other such gifts to the unregenerate. No, of course not. But you have set this precedent that He does. If he gives one spiritual gift to the unregenerate why not give them all to the unsaved? This is totally ridiculous.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (Galatians 5:22-23)
--If faith is given to the unregenerate then why not all the fruit of the Spirit. Be consistent. Your position is wrong!

For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. (1 Corinthians 12:8-11)
--There are many that believe the gifts have not ceased. Even if they have, faith is described as a gift of the Spirit. Is this gift given to unbelievers. If it is then why not the rest of the gifts that are mentioned here? You are not consistent. You are wrong. Faith is never given to the unregenerate. It is only given to the saved. God does not give faith to the unsaved, the unregenerate. That is a totally unbiblical concept. It is unfathomable that any person should believe this.

 

[JesusFan]

or eternal security of the believer.

I know I am saved because I have put my faith and trust in Jesus Christ, and he granted my salvation and forgiveness of sins. This is based on his promises in His Word that He has paid the penalty for my sins by atoning for them with His blood. I trusted Him.

that is according to the Bible, that we may KNOW that we have eternal life, full assurance thru both knowing Jesus as our Saviour, confirmed by the Holy Spirit indwelling us... believing on the name of the Son of God...

Some would call that a "self-centered" salvation and thus no salvation at all (a Calvinist view). Why? It centers around my choice, my free will to choose Christ and put my faith in him.

Depends how you define "free will" Cal would say no longer possess that ability to freely response to the Gospel, be like the parables... ALL heard what jesus taught, But ONLY those God chose to reveal the real message of them to could believe/recive them "those who has ears to hear"

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:13)
--The word "know" is used here. I know I have eternal life because I have believed on the name of the Son of God. This is the promise of God. It is Scripture. It is eternal security or an assurance of salvation.

Well, per Cals, only the Elect actually are able to even receive Christ and be saved, so that would fit ....

I have heard it said by some that are Calvinists that since they don't believe in the "whosoever wills," but rather that Christ died for the elect, and that they are the elect, they will persevere.

Actually, the "whosoever wills" are those who God has "quickened" to respond/receive jesus, so it IS an act of their will to receive Jesus, its just that they were given their faith to believe by God, so God wills it, man receives it/believes it, and has eternal life
My question is:
How do you know you are the elect of God?

The Bible and witness of Holy Spirit
What assurance do you have?
same as the above
I know because I have believed. But you deny choice, free will.

No, I dont, just that a person w/o God provided for me to have those choices...
Just saying, those elected/chosen will have means to freely respond to Gospel, those w/o dont...
What assurance do you have that you are one of the elect? How can you know for sure. Are you sure you are eternally secure in the hand of God? If so, how are you sure?

Again, Jesus promised me that ALL those that his Father gives Him, he will rise them up at last day, NONE will be lost/perish...

Help me understand your position here.

have to relise that I do NOT hold that God just "zaps" you to receive jesus, you do have to respond repent believe receive its just that since the ability/means to do that comes directly from God, not an act of works, as it is His salvation/saving work start to finish!

 

[DHK]

have to relise that I do NOT hold that God just "zaps" you to receive jesus, you do have to respond repent believe receive its just that since the ability/means to do that comes directly from God, not an act of works, as it is His salvation/saving work start to finish!

What do you mean when you say "the ability" has to come from God. My very existence comes from God. My ability to breathe, walk, talk, etc. comes from God. Everything I do comes from God. Inasmuch as I put my key into the ignition of my car, and by faith when I turn it believe that my car will start, I (many years ago) by faith believed in Christ and his sacrifice that he would save me from my sins. Faith is faith. In the first instance the object of my faith was a ford manual or the word of the ford company. In the second instance the object of my faith was the Lord Jesus Christ. In the first instance the object of my faith was man and man-made products that could and would fail. In the second case the object of my faith was the perfect immutable Godhead who never fails, cannot fail, and who has given us a book which contains his eternal promises which cannot fail and never will fail. The faith is the same. As an unsaved individual God did not give me the faith to start my car. And God did not give me the faith to believe in him. He left it up to me. He gave me the choice. It was my choice to start my car. It was my choice to believe on him. I believed my car would start (if it hadn't, it wouldn't have been the failure of faith but of man's fallible products because man is not infallible). I believed God would save. And He did. He never fails.

 

[JesusFan]

What do you mean when you say "the ability" has to come from God. My very existence comes from God. My ability to breathe, walk, talk, etc. comes from God. Everything I do comes from God. Inasmuch as I put my key into the ignition of my car, and by faith when I turn it believe that my car will start, I (many years ago) by faith believed in Christ and his sacrifice that he would save me from my sins. Faith is faith. In the first instance the object of my faith was a ford manual or the word of the ford company. In the second instance the object of my faith was the Lord Jesus Christ. In the first instance the object of my faith was man and man-made products that could and would fail. In the second case the object of my faith was the perfect immutable Godhead who never fails, cannot fail, and who has given us a book which contains his eternal promises which cannot fail and never will fail. The faith is the same. As an unsaved individual God did not give me the faith to start my car. And God did not give me the faith to believe in him. He left it up to me. He gave me the choice. It was my choice to start my car. It was my choice to believe on him. I believed my car would start (if it hadn't, it wouldn't have been the failure of faith but of man's fallible products because man is not infallible). I believed God would save. And He did. He never fails.

You are assuming here that mankind has still an earnest free will still able to respond to the gospel of God after the fall...
Believe Luther called it now the "Bondage of the Human Will"
After the Fall, Man is not capable of even responding to God unless the Lord brings it to pass...
You can still exercise "faith" that car will start, can do other things expecting them to work, its just in the realm of spiritual things, just "not able" to exercise saving faith totally by yourself, as your will is bound to a nature that is in rebellion against God...

 

[DHK]

You are assuming here that mankind has still an earnest free will still able to respond to the gospel of God after the fall...
Believe Luther called it now the "Bondage of the Human Will"
After the Fall, Man is not capable of even responding to God unless the Lord brings it to pass...
You can still exercise "faith" that car will start, can do other things expecting them to work, its just in the realm of spiritual things, just "not able" to exercise saving faith totally by yourself, as your will is bound to a nature that is in rebellion against God...

That is an opinion. I will respect your opinion. I don't believe it is a Biblical opinion. It has no foundation in Scripture.

 

[JesusFan]

That is an opinion. I will respect your opinion. I don't believe it is a Biblical opinion. It has no foundation in Scripture.

It all depends on just HOW much you see the Fall corrupting man...

If we have a sinful nature in us, and that is at war against God, and that Spiritual things cannot be received by the fleshly/natural man...

Apart from the Grace of God, and the Work of the Father to draw, Spirit to convict, and the Gospel to save, and the faith itself is a gift from God...

Why is this "just opinion?"

 

[Fred's Wife]

The Bible teaches that man is morally corrupt (Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18) and dead in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1) and spiritually blind (1Corinthians 2:14).

However the Bible does not teach that man cannot respond to the Gospel.

The Bible teaches that Christ gives light to every man (John 1:9), that he draws all men to himself (John12:32), that he convicts men through the Holy Spirit (John 16:8). God calls men to salvation through the gospel (2 Thessalonians 2:14), and He has ordained that the gospel be preached to every creature (Mark 16:15).

 

[Skandelon]

The Bible teaches that man is morally corrupt (Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18) and dead in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1) and spiritually blind (1Corinthians 2:14).

However the Bible does not teach that man cannot respond to the Gospel.

The Bible teaches that Christ gives light to every man (John 1:9), that he draws all men to himself (John12:32), that he convicts men through the Holy Spirit (John 16:8). God calls men to salvation through the gospel (2 Thessalonians 2:14), and He has ordained that the gospel be preached to every creature (Mark 16:15).

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Well stated!

The only people who can't respond to the gospel are those who are being actively blinded from it. For example, those in Mark 4 or Matt. 13 who Jesus hides the gospel from in parables "lest they repent and believe." Clearly, Jesus hides the gospel from the Jews at this time because he doesn't want them to respond in faith at that time. If they believed in great numbers as they do in Acts 2 after Peter's presentation of the powerful gospel then they wouldn't have crucified him. This is why he hardened them and kept the Jews from coming to faith.

Calvinists take these passages to support the concept that God chooses to save some and condemn the rest, but clearly that is NOT what these passages are teaching. It is not until Christ is lifted up and the gospel is sent to be preached to all creatures that He draws all men to himself.

 

[Amy.G]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
The only people who can't respond to the gospel are those who are being actively blinded from it.

Or those who have chosen to be blind.

Read all of Romans 1, but especially this verse:

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

 

[quantumfaith]

What do you mean when you say "the ability" has to come from God. My very existence comes from God. My ability to breathe, walk, talk, etc. comes from God. Everything I do comes from God. Inasmuch as I put my key into the ignition of my car, and by faith when I turn it believe that my car will start, I (many years ago) by faith believed in Christ and his sacrifice that he would save me from my sins. Faith is faith. In the first instance the object of my faith was a ford manual or the word of the ford company. In the second instance the object of my faith was the Lord Jesus Christ. In the first instance the object of my faith was man and man-made products that could and would fail. In the second case the object of my faith was the perfect immutable Godhead who never fails, cannot fail, and who has given us a book which contains his eternal promises which cannot fail and never will fail. The faith is the same. As an unsaved individual God did not give me the faith to start my car. And God did not give me the faith to believe in him. He left it up to me. He gave me the choice. It was my choice to start my car. It was my choice to believe on him. I believed my car would start (if it hadn't, it wouldn't have been the failure of faith but of man's fallible products because man is not infallible). I believed God would save. And He did. He never fails.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Skandelon]

Or those who have chosen to be blind.

Well, I'd say that even those have the ability to believe it, or at least HAD that ability before growing hardened in their rebellion. The distinction is those God was actively blinding in their rebellion for the expressed purpose of keeping them from repenting. Something that would be unnecessary if the doctrine of Total Depravity is true.

But even those who have become hardened by choice and subsequently sealed in that hardened state by God could be saved. (Romans 11:14)