Pictoral Chart of Revelation

Sorry, herb Evans was allowing a second rapture at the end of the trib. Herb Evans has never used Matthew 24 or Mark 13 for the pre-mill rapture. Some pre-tribbers do. I don't need the Gospels to declare an imminent rapture with no signs. -- Herb Evans

 

Post Mill versus Pre Mill

WHAT IS THAT TO THEE, POST-MILL?​

Pre-millennial, pre-tribulational bashing is now in vogue (judging from many recent books and articles). Gainsayers, against this position, cannot stand the very thought of an imminent rapture/return of Christ "FOR" His saints, which is much more appealing than an imminent tribulation and/or antichrist.

Imminent Rapture Possibility​

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. – John 14:2, 3

Jesus saith unto him, if I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he TARRY TILL I COME, what is that to thee? -- John 21:22-23

Certainly, we can find a possibility or hint of an imminent rapture here, as we examine the words of the Lord Jesus Christ, who, admittedly, did not reveal very much, regarding the rapture "mystery." (Also, the brethren's propensity to get prophetic themes all fouled up can also be found here.)

Old Testament Prophetic Confusion​

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. -- 1 Pet. 1:11

1st Coming: . . .O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. -- Zec. 9:9

2nd Coming: And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off . . . and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth. -- Zec. 9:10

The Old Testament prophets, who penned the O.T. scriptures, were even confused about the time and also about the events. Was Christ to come as King, as many passages attest, or was He to come to suffer, as others attest, or was He to come as a servant, as yet others attest? Were these events simultaneous or separated by a span of time? Can you imagine the prophets pitting or arguing one event against another? Still, all of these events must be fulfilled somehow.

Is it any wonder that both the O.T. prophets and the N.T. saints were confused? Is it any wonder that the disciples were always asking about the kingdom being set up "NOW!” The time intervals, between the events, are veiled, until their revelation. It happens quite often; not only does it happen in Zech 9:2, 3-5; but also in Isa 9:2, 3-5, 6; Isa 40:3, 4-5; Isa. 61:1, 2-3; Malachi 3:1, 2-5. Often, events are separated by verses, other times, in the same verse, as with Isaiah 9:6.

New Testament Prophetic Confusion​

Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
-- Luke 12:41

New Testament brethren were confused, as to whom the end time prophecies address. Peter, at least, inquired of the Lord, in that regard, although his question was ignored and left unanswered. Unfortunately, for certain prophetic approaches, the prophetic scriptures must cover more than the U.S.A. and the now, present, current year. End time prophecies are encompassing enough to avoid a conflict between: the then living saints, the nation of Israel, the church age saints, the tribulation saints (1st half), martyred tribulation saints, tribulation saints (at Christ's glory coming), and future Israel. (Many prophecies even includes warnings to unbelievers, in their respective time periods.)

Obviously, from many prophetic disclaimers, some saints will not know when these prophetic fulfillments occur. Still, other references to the 1260 days, the 42 months (the times, time, and a half time), and the abomination of desolation, show that certain saints are supposed to know when they occur. Still, ALL groups seem urged to watch, look, wait, and be ready in their respective times.

Some saints look, watch, and wait for deliverance, via the rapture, others via death, and others, via the destruction of their enemies, at Christ's coming in glory. Post Mills are extremely silent or extremely brief, regarding the "LOOK, WATCH, WAIT, and BE READY" prophetic passages.

Jesus Knew Where to Divide the Events​

The spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God . . . -- Isa. 61:1-3

. . . he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book . . . -- Luke 4:17-20

Jesus correctly divided the events, which seemingly were run together, but He did not reveal any rapture truth, at that time. Still, He remained accurate in every phase of the end time prophecies.

Jesus Did Not Know the When—Then​

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son . . . -- Mark 13:31-32

Jesus is the Son of God! Jesus is God! Jesus is omniscient! Then how can this be? Jesus is Omnipotent, yet when He took upon Himself human flesh, He divested Himself and limited Himself, concerning certain things. He was hungry, thirsty, and tired. He even positioned Himself to grow in wisdom (Lk 2:52), although already filled with wisdom (Lk 2:40). Strange that some would dogmatically insist that they know the "WHEN," through special O.T. formulas and from the very words that Jesus spoke in the Gospels, when Jesus didn’t know the "WHEN," from His own words??? It seems to us that no one will know the "WHEN," until the abomination of desolation does his thing (Mat 24:15, 16; Dan 12:7,11; 2 Thess. 2:4; Rev 13:5).

Mystery Confusion​

Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. -- 1 Cor. 15:51-52

. . . even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. -- Rom. 8:23

For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we LOOK for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body . . . -- Phil. 3:20-21

And to WAIT for his Son from heaven . . . which delivered us from the wrath to come. -- 1 Th. 1:10 (1 Cor. 1:7; 1 Thess. 1:10; 4:13-17)

. . .we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
-- 1 John 3:2-3

Make thee two trumpets of silver . . . that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. -- Num. 10:2

Why were certain prophecies scrambled, run together, or veiled, to those saints, prior to Paul? Because a "mystery" must be revealed! The "mystery" of the rapture and the non dying and the glorious body change, happening in a twinkling of an eye (fast), was not revealed until Paul. It will occur at the last "trump" [a trump for the church & a trump for the Jews (Isa 27:12-13)] not to be twisted or confused with the 7th "trumpet" of the Revelation. Moreover, Paul informs us pre-mills that we are to patiently look and wait for the Saviour and that event. What is that to thee, post-millennialist?

-- by Herb Evans

 

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogotory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 3 Sept 2005;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #3 and #4 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

Herb Evans: //I don't need the Gospels to declare an imminent
rapture with no signs.//

Amen, Brother Herb Evans -- Preach it! :thumbs:

No doctrine should hinge on one scripture nor upon one's misunderstanding
of said one scripture.

The following compilation is by Ed and has appeared previously
in this and other ventues.
----------------------------------
Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
Millennial Messanic Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.

1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
(John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)

2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
(Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
(1 Thess 4:16-17)
3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
(Rev 19:6-14)

4R. end of the Gentile Age
(Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
(Revelation 19)

5R. Tribulation period begins
5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
(1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
(Rev 6:12-17)

7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
(1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
(Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

8R. Focus: Lord and Church
(1 Thess 4:13-18)
8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
(Romans 11)

9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
judgement.

11R. Time of joy. (1Thessalonians 4:17-18)
11SC. Time of sorrow. (Matthew 24:30)

12R. relative peace and prosperity. (Lk.17:26-30).
12SC. the worst war the world has ever seen. (Mt.24:21,22).

13R. Christians are promised they will be delivered
-- from the wrath to come (1 Thes 1:10, 5:9)
13SC. Israeli are told to flee the wrath to come (Matt 3:7, Luke 3:7)
----------------------------------------------------------

 

That is what I believe; i wonder if pel Mell will answer it? -- Herb Evans

 

What is interesting is the one that I don't use.

Taken from page 112 of CHARTING THE
ENTIMES by Tim Lahaye & Thomas Ice
(Harvest House, 2001):

xR. "The Judgment seat of Christ"
xSC "No time or polace for judgment seat"

Actually, there isn't enough time
(standard world time) in 7 years for
all the saves of all ages to get their reward.

7 years only contain 3,679,200 minutes.
There should be at least 4 Billion of the 35 Billion
people born 33AD to 1990AD that are real Christians.
7 years only contains some 221 Million seconds.
If there are 4 Billion Real Christians to be rewarded
in the Judgement Seat of Christ (JSoC), that is some
20 persons awarded per second.
Obviously the JSoC is NOT held in regular
universe-type time. (so it really matters little
if the JSoC is 7-years long or over in an instant.

 

The obvious implication being that some will not be accounted worthy. So you are now an advocate of a conditional rapture? I guess you can teach an old dog new tricks.

 

Chart of Revelation

_____________________________________________________________

MB,

At least you show an open mind! Have you considered the time and specific events that are coming when we will "know the end is near"? Matt.24:33. That verse is given in close connection only with not being able to know the exact day in advance! Even the Jews will "know their redemption and kingdom are near when they see THE SIGN of the Son of Man"!! Matt.24:30. Through the preaching of the Two Witnesses, even many of the unbelieving (and still blinded) Jews will be reminded of the signs given by their prophets as to the coming of Messiah!!! Luke 21:28,31; Rom.11:25.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

Chart of Revelation

_______________________________________________________

Ed, I am very surprised that you had not heard the very basic
argument given by so many for the doctrine of a Pre-Trib Rapture.
Since it can't be found in any other Scripture, the "any-moment"
theory was positioned on a Post-Trib Truth!

Mel

 

Chart of Revelation

Quote from Herb:

"My contention is the gathering in Mark 13 is the same timeframe as in Matthew 24 and that it occurs after the coming in power and glory. My original intention was to prove that Mark 13:27 was not the pre-trib rapture. If you want to call it a post-trib rapture--FINE! My concern was a time frame and not the details of the gathering". Herb Evans
_____________________________________________________________
Rapture truth is Post-Trib! You haven't shown Anderson's chart is correct in putting the Rapture BEORE the Trumpets and Plagues which are PART
of the great tribulation!! Jesus placed its pre-signs AFTER the tribulation!!!

When will you offer evidence, from the words of Jesus Himself, to support your claim of TWO last days...one to raise up Pre-Trib saints years before He comes WITH them to "raise up every believer"? Until you do that, you are admitting it is presumptuous to question whether Jesus describes the Rapture on the last DAY (singular) in verse 27! And you didn't dispute His promise to "gather every believer from earth TO heaven on that last DAY (singular)...because the last Day ipso facto prevents any further gathering of Saints!! You even admit that Mark 13:27 occurs at the same time as Matt.24:31 and therefore that Jesus "sends the angels to gather all the saints (including tribulation martyrs who die in the Lord) FROM all extremities of the heavenS"!!!

Quote from Herb:

"Again, my intention was to establish the time frame not the details. If you want it to be a post-trib rapture, I have no problem with that. Obviously, the rapture of the 2 witnesses as well as some other raptures in the trib is on the table".
_________________________________________________
I was not “blindsiding you nor trying to make you think I sided with the Chart regarding Mark 13:27”; because Anderson does not claim it refers to a pre-trib rapture!
Nor did I make a point of Mark 13:27 to introduce my “hobby horse”; but because you made it an ISSUE by denying that Jesus describes the Rapture here!! You offered no evidence to dispute Jesus; just your theory!!!

So instead of accusing me of being “petty”, why not give some evidence for not accepting the word of the Lord that a “DAY” means a “DAY” because He knew what He was talking about; said what He meant and meant what He said? John 6:38-40.

Jesus "gathers the saints TO heaven" at the SC at the same time the angels "gather them FROM the extremities of the heavenS"! The Greek text: "He gathers the Elect TO heaven (episunaxei; 3rd person singular)!! "He sends (apostelei; 3rd person singular) the angels and then THEY finish the gathering FROM everywere (globally) in the heavenS" (episunaxousin; 3rd person PLURAL)!!!

You agree for me to “have my way as long as this is post-trib stuff”. It was YOUR argument that Jesus didn’t describe the Post-Trib Rapture as part of His SC! I challenged you because you disputed what Jesus taught occurs “in the days after the great tribulation”!! Further response is useless since you finally admitted (except for slyly suggesting “DAY means DAYS”) that it was OK for me to believe the truth as Jesus presents that truth for every believer!

Thank you and I know Ed meant dyslexia and not “dialectic”. But controversy over the meaning of the “last day”, IMO, is the essence of dialectical controversy. Jesus would surely have no room for disputation over the Day of Wrath and His “coming in flaming fire to destroy unbelievers on the Day of Vengeance and to deliver believers who suffer for His name”.
2 Thess.1:5-11.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

Perchance you missed that you were talking about
Matthew 24:36 and I was talking about Matthew 24:31?
The '6' and the '1' are different.

 

Man, that is a stretch and a straw man of your making. Still, I do believe in a conditional rapture, conditioned on being saved and under the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. Instead of troubleshooting the comments of others, why don't you get some courage and commit yourself to posting your views? --:BangHead: Herb Evans

 

Amen, Brother Herb Evans -- you are so RIGHT ON! :thumbs:

The best information I got from pretribber & millionare LEFT BEHIND
author Tim LaHaye was from his book
(I can't seem to put my fingers on it right now) about how to
study the Bible for one's self.

ah, I found it:

HOW TO STUDY THE BIBLE FOR YOURSELF, Revised and Expanded Edition,
by Tim LaHaye (Harvest House, 1998, ISBN 1-56507-631-1 )

 

THE FIG TREE RAPTURE​

Behold the fig free, AND ALL the trees; when THEY now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now NIGH AT HAND. So likewise ye, when ye see THESE THINGS come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is NIGH AT HAND. Verily I say unto you, THIS generation [the generation that sees these things] shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. --Luke 21:29-32

Imminent Return?​

Whatever can be said about rapture time frame speculation, one thing issure, those involved in it do not believe in an imminent return of Jesus Christ. To be imminent, the return of Christ must be on the verge of happening at any moment. The early Christians were supposed to look for and to wait for the imminent return of their Saviour according to such Scriptures as: Rom. 8:23; 1 Cor. 1:7, 8; 15:51, 52; 16:22 (Maranatha - the Lord Cometh); Phil. 3:20; 4:5; Co1. 3:4; 1 Thess. 1:10; 2 Thess. 3:5; 1 Tim. 6:14; Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28; James 5:7, 8; 1 John 3:2-3, and Rev. 22:20. These Scriptures prove that the rapture could have occurred soon after or during the New Testament’s completion. James tells the brethren, living then, in James 5:8."Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord DRAWETH NIGH."

The Generation​

Unfortunately, we are never told how the forty year generation of some is compiled. Still, Matthew 1:17, would be a good place to test this “generation” theory in that from Abraham to David, and from David to the captivity, and from the captivity until Christ are 14 generations apiece. By using Usher's notes generously and dividing by 14, Abraham to David might calculate anywhere from 57 years to 78 years; David to the captivity might calculate to 36 years or less; the captivity to Christ, using Daniel's 69 weeks of years and seventy years for the captivity, might calculate to 37 years in solar years (even less for prophetic years of 360 days each). All this provides no valid reason for assigning 40 years or any other specific amount figure to a generation. The older commentators, for whatever it is worth, viewed the generation as a race/group of people living in a particular time.

The Fig Tree​

We are sure that we could get the most fanciful speculator to agree that Israel is not to be found in every passage that contains the word "fig tree," otherwise, we would have Israelite paratroopers falling out of heaven in Revelation 6:13, where the "fig tree” casts her untimely figs to the earth. Speculators should not only consult what Matthew 24:32 has to say, concerning the FIG TREE but also Luke 21:29 before they carelessly assign a "HIM" to Israel. Who is the olive tree (Rom. 11:17) -- note: "HIS" and not a "HER" branch in Matt. 24:32. "Behold the fig tree, and ALL the trees; when THEY shoot forth. . ." What were ALL the trees doing in 1948, if they are nations also?

Consider the Figs​

Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the MOON shall not give her light, and the STARS shall FALL from heaven . . . And Then shall appear the SIGN of the Son of man IN HEAVEN . . . COMING in the clouds of heaven with POWER and GREAT GLORY . . . Now, learn a parable of the fig tree; when his branch is yet tender . . . ye know that SUMMER is nigh: so likewise ye, when ye shall see ALL THESE THINGS, know that it is NEAR . . . -- Matt. 24:29-33

What about Jesus' comments as found in Matthew 24:29, 30, 32, 33? To explain these comments, we must first consider the initial question that they asked Jesus in Matthew 24:3, "What shall be the SIGN OF THY COMING, and of the END OF THE WORLD?" What is going to happen, when the FIG TREE'S branches shoot forth, and what about the figs? When ye see ALL what things? When ye see the sun end the moon darkened; when you see the stars fall from heaven; when you see the sign IN HEAVEN! When are you going to see these things? After the tribulation of those days! This cannot be the premillennial rapture, which has already taken place before Daniel’s 70th week, and this is the end of the week. Note that in Matthew 24:30 that Christ's coming in glory is mentioned directly after the "sign in heaven." No church age pre-millennial rapture here.

Consider the Figs Falling​

. . . SUMMER is now NIGH at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. --Luke 21:30, 31

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the SUN became black . . . and the MOON became as blood; And the STARS of heaven FELL unto the earth, even as a FIG TREE [there it is] casteth her untimely figs. --Rev. 6:12, 13

What is the significance of "summer?" Summer is the time when the figs fall. What are the figs? The figs are the stars! You don't believe it? See Revelation 6, which is an overlay of Matthew 24. Revelation 6:12, 13 and especially overlays Matthew 24:29, 30; Summer means that the stars are going to fall and Jesus will come shortly thereafter, in power and glory, to make war on the earth and to set up His kingdom. If Israel is the fig tree, are the untimely figs falling – Israeli paratroopers? :wavey:

Men will try to hide from the wrath of the Lamb (Rev. 6:16) for the great day of his wrath will then have come (verse 17). We sometimes forget that the Bible is not only for us pre tribulation saints but that it is also for those saints who will go through the tribulation. Pre tribulation saints will not see the antichrist of Matthew 24:15, so what have they to do with the fleeing to the mountains in verse 16. That is for the Jewish saints in Judea during the great tribulation?

What about the Thief in the Night?​

For yourselves KNOW perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night . . . But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. -- 1 Thess. 5:2-4

Pre 70th week saints are not going to be taken by the day of the Lord (not the rapture) as a thief in the night, simply because they are not in darkness and simply because they are either dead or raptured before the day of the Lord takes place (not because they figured out some mathematical formula for the date). We must not get the rapture confused with the Day of the Lord and the second coming of Christ in power and glory, and we must be sure of who the "ye's" are referring to in Matthew 24.

Are We in the Last Days?

. . . this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel . . . And it shall come to pass in the . . . LAST DAYS, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit . . . -- Acts 2:16, 17

God . . . hath in THESE LAST DAYS spoken unto us by his Son . . . -- Heb. 1:1, 2

. . . whereby we know that it is the LAST TIME. -- 1 John 2:18.

Yes, we are in the last days, but we have been in the last days, since the New Testament was written according to Paul, Peter, and John. Nothing needs to happen before the Lord raptures His saints. No sign is needed or required for us.

Will the Tribulation Saints know the Time? Times?Day? Hour? Season? When?​

But in those days, AFTER that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory . . . So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass [What Things? – Herb Evans], know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation [the generation after the stars fall – Herb Evans] shall not pass, till all these things be done. . . . But of THAT day and that hour knoweth no man [Then and NOW], no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye KNOW NOT when the TIME is. Watch ye therefore for ye KNOW NOT WHEN the master of the house cometh . . . Watch ye therefore . . . lest coming he find you sleeping And what I say unto you I SAY UNTO ALL, WATCH. -- Mk. 13:24-33, 35, 37

. . . Watch therefore: for ye KNOW NOT what HOUR your Lord doth come . . . But of that day and hour KNOWETH NO MAN . . . Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. . . . Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. -- Matt. 24:36, 42, 44

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons [for the kingdom restoration – Herb Evans], which the Father hath put in his own power . . . And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven [Christ did not leave in power and Glory – Herb Evans]. – Acts 1:6, 7, 10, 11

-- by Herb Evans

 

It's Coming, Steve Anderson

Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early AND latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. -- James 5:7, 8

 

Chart of Revelation

___________________________________________________________
Ed,

Pre-Trib Doctrine of an "any-moment, signless Rapture" was at first based on Matt.24:36 where Jesus spoke of the "unknown Day and Hour" of His SC "on one of the days AFTER the great tribulation that will have come to an end"! He didn't know which day or hour it will be because only the Father knows how many more must be killed while the Two Prophets lie dead!! Jesus agrees with Rev.10:6-7 and Rev.11:6-7 that the Unknown Last Day will occur "during or shortly after the 3 1/2 days when the Two Prophets lie dead in Jerusalem"!!!

There is an "order" to the resurrection on the LAST DAY! The Two Pros will rise up on the day of the LAST TRUMP...for they will be among believers who MUST all "rise up on the LAST DAY" to fulfill John 6:38-40!! Jesus did not lie because He knew there must be "Two Witnesses" at the Tribunal of Seal 7 which He breaks open on the LAST DAY to reveal, for about a half hour in the presence of ALL the Martyrs, the indictment displayed by the Scroll's inner contents...including 6 of the 7 Trumpet Judgments!!!

Just as the Tribulation includes the 7 Last Plagues which must "empty before anyone can enter the Temple in heaven" for the blowing of the LAST TRUMP (NOT while the temple is filled with the smoke of God's power and glory; Rev.15:8); so these Trib-Martyrs cannot possibly "come with Jesus from heaven" until the 7th Trumpet sounds that:

1. "God's wrath has come" as of the LAST DAY...the DAY of WRATH!
2. "The appointed (kairos) time" has come for Resurrection and Rewards
"to the prophets and saints and to all who fear God"!! Rev.11:18; and
3. "To destroy earth's destroyers" in Retribution ON THAT LAST DAY!!!

Please don't dispute me on the original Pre-Trib view being set in the context of the SC on the LAST DAY; for I sat under the teaching of the Archbishop of Dispensationalism, Dr. Harry Ironside, when he was pastor of Moody Memorial Church in Chicago from 1940 to 1943! Pre-Tribism had no foundation for support except by extracting the time for the Rapture of Mark 13:24-27 and Matt.24:29-31 from its Post-Trib SC setting and surreptitiously assigning it to a Pre-Trib SC!! Only recently have believers
awakened to the fact that NNE COMES WITH JESUS from heaven until the last martyr "who must be killed" reaches His presence before He can "gather the Elect from earth and send the angels to bring them to the
"meeting place for His wedding at the Synagogue" in the Sky!!!
2 Thes.2:1 (Paul uses noun form of the word used by Jesus: synagogue).

That wedding is announced just moments before "heaven opens" and the Lamb comes with all the "called, elect and faithful"! The 4th "blessing" of Revelation is for those among the tribes of earth who "mourn and beg to escape all these things on the LAST DAY and are invited to the Lamb's wedding SUPPER"; but not to the wedding!! Those who are "kept alive" will produce the countless number who will inherit the eternal kingdom on earth while the Bribe inhabits the New Jerusalem above them!!! (The wedding announced and anticipated: Rev.19:7; 2 Thess.2:1. The coming with all the Saints: Rev.17:14. The Guests include those who will "admire" Jesus for the first time: Zech.12:10; Rev.1:7; Rom.11:25; Luke 17:33; Matt.24:30; Luke 21:36; 2 Thess.1:10.

Ed, you have more internal fortitude than any person I have encountered!
You burst in upon the heart of Jesus' promise to "gather the Elect and to send the angels to swoop them into His presence "on one of the days after the great tribulation" WHEN THEY SEE THE SIGN OF HIS COMING... by claiming He was talking about a Pre-Trib Rapture!! Herb Evans is like you in twisting Jesus' words "LAST DAY" to mean "LAST DAYS"...as if He meant He will come more than once with all the Saints on "one of the days" during a period of 2520 days (7 Years or 84-30-day months)!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net
The words of :jesus: are irrevocable! He said what He meant and meant what He said!! He desires that we all become ONE in His truth!!! Why should His words be the cause of so much divisiveness?

 

Gee Mr. Herb Evans,
With all of your deep theological theories about the coming of the Lord, you must have this down to an exact science. Tell me, when are you going to do your Rev 4:1 thingy and come up hither? You know what appears to be true? It appears you have been reading too many Left Behind science fiction novels.

 

Sorry Bro, but you are out of order.
Did you read the part where i said something about
Tim LaHaye, the author of the Left Behind SF novels?
Which part of "the best book Tim LaHaye ever wrote
was HOW TO STUDY THE BIBLE FOR YOURSELF are you
having problems with?

It is a direct insult to suggest that a person got his Eschatology
from Tim LaHaye. I know I got* my Eschatolgy from the Bible
via the Holy Spirit.

*and continue to get

-----------------------------------
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The time line according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The time line according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
as will 80% of Baptists and 60% of kindred Christians.

-----------------------------------
BTW, getting one's eschatolgy from millionaries is
NOT kool.

 

Mr. heathen gods, I guess I will wait for you to show the church after Rev. 4:1. -Then, I might go into it. -Herb Evans

P.S. I do not read novels. I do not read Tim Lahaye, finding him too shallow on the issue.

 

Hi everybody;
One thing I've learned in life is that arguments will only make men hate one another for their disagreements.
MB