Pictoral Chart of Revelation

Originally Posted by Herb Evans
I think my statement stacks up pretty good against what I wrote. I am under no obligation to be unified with falsehood but am admonished to reprove and correct falsehood. Why? Were you the one that offered the $ 100,000? Where there is error, there must meeds be disunity. -- Herb Evans

This does not address my above comment. You are only using my comment as a springboard for what you want to talk about which can wait. -- Herb Evans

 

Jesus tells Trib-Saints to "watch for His coming and be blessed"! -- Mel

Jesus told living saints to watch, look, and wait. Why pit one truth against another – Herb Evans

Jesus promises to "raise up every/all Believers on the Last Day"!!

How many Last Days in Scripture? Certainly he is not going to raise those in the trib, who already have been raised at the rapture and have not gone into the trib. – Herb Evans

Jesus will "gather Trib-Saints from earth to heaven on that Day!!!

Again, why pit that truth against those that are raised before the trib? – Herb Evans

 

You claim the Elect of Matt.24 are Jewish Saints; not the Church Elect!

Well, His first concern is those that are iinvolved with the Abomination of Desolation, sitting in the Temple showing himself as God (Matt. 24:15). He also has a concern about those who are in Judea (Matt. 24;16). He also has a concern about those who are involved in the Sabbath day. (Matt 24:20). I would say that they are Jews, wouldn’t you? Of course, some take the warning and do flee to the mountains and other places, perhaps Petra as some think. – Herb Evans

Why would Jesus "send the angels to gather the Jews from earth to heaven" and leave Saints who "overcome to the End" on the earth?

See above! Could you be a bit more specific on this with a scripture reference for your time frame? – Herb Evans

Those who "survive to the End" are willing to die for Christ!!

The end of what? – Herb Evans

Do you also claim there are two ENDS for the Saints just as you claim there are two or more LAST DAYS to "raise up all Believers"?? --Mel

I never claimed anything. I just asked you how many last days there were, and you evaded the question. I do know there are a few resurrections in the Bible. One has already past. – Herb Evans

The Martyrs of the Great Tribulation will "serve God in heaven for 1000 years and the Lamb will be their shepherd"!!! --Mel

What tribe are these martyrs from? Judah? Reuben? And etc.? – Herb Evans

What is your answer to the question of what happens to Trib-Saints who "overcome to the End" and who are left behind as you carelessly think???--mel

Again, end of what? Please supply scripture. – Herb Evans

 

Basic Flaw of Charts on Revelation

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Like last week, I have a few minutes before going for Church visitation!
So let me give you the FULL SIGN of the Rapture of All the Saints who
remain on the earth after the Two Witnesses and 144K Jews are taken
to heaven!! These Jews are His "Firstfruit unto God and unto Himself"!!!

THE FULL SIGN

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened
and the moon shall not give her light and the stars shall fall from heaven
and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. Matt.24:29.

"And then shall He send His angels and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part
of heaven. Mark 13:27.

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heavean: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn and they shall see the Son of Man
coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matt.24:30.

"And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the extremities
of the heavenS to the the extremities of them." Matt.24:31.

This is THE SIGN that is missing from the Charts on Revelation's Events!
Scripture does not "pit truth regarding the 144,000 Jews against truth"
about the rest of the Elect who will be gathered above on the last day!!
These Jews, saved during the great tribulation, are the "Firstfruit unto
God and the Lamb" and will be among all the Saints coming with Jesus on
the Day of God's Wrath when "God will show mercy" unto millions who will
become "guests" at the Lamb's wedding Supper soon after on the earth!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net Seeking all Truth; not Half Truths of :jesus:

 

Mel, Obviously:

1. you have no taste for point/counterpoint discussion
2. you like to quote from Modern bibles
3. you like to force your interpolations into the scriptures
4. You like to pontificate your shallow views as scripture

-- Herb Evans

 

Herb, obviously:

1. You do not understand to have a counterpoint you had to make a point in the first place.
2. You think King James and his translators were divine.
3. Your references are the "Left Behind" series.
4. You are stuck on the shallow doctrine of end times.

You asked in a previous post what is my time line. Ok here it is. I live by faith under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and become more like Jesus each day. One day, as Hebrews 11:27 says, I die, and then give an account, followed by being with the Lord. How is that? As far as your theories of the end times, what difference does it make? God has all that under control. When did end times doctrine ever spread the Gospel to one person? God has given us glimpses into the subject, and since you are mortal, I dont believe you have special insight, and if you did, it would not make one iota of difference in God's plan.

 

Uh, er, well, the subject is about Brother Pastor
Steven L Anderson's (on the BB known as 'Sanderson1769)
Pictoral Chart of Revelation. By extension we who like
to discuss various modes of eschatology are discussing
(maybe even debating) our subject.

But now the subject is Mel Miller?
Sorry, I like to talk about Jesus coming back and
other features of Eschatology NOT Mel Miller.
(Nothing personal, Brother Mel. Actually I'd rather
discuss you than some other folk on the BB, but
I probably aught not to say that )

So, Brother Mel Miller doesn't like like the
point/counterpoint one-sentence per post
'debate'? So what? I have found rather refreshing the
discussion/debate between Brother Mel Miller and I.
So what that the both of us like huge monologues?
We both write for other people in other venues
and our discussion enhanses both Mel's writings
and my writings. I like Brother Mel Miller.

-Ed, President
Mel Miller Promotion Society (MMPS)

Anybody for a discussion about Eschatology in General
and Maps of Revelation in particular. Wasn't Clarence Larkin
Great!

Heb 10:24-25 (KJV1611 Edition):
And let vs consider one another to prouoke vnto loue,
and to good workes:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of our selues together,
as the manner of some is: but exhorting one another,
and so much the more, as ye see the day approching.

Of course, I'd prefer instead of 'exhorting' the word 'EDifying'

 

The End of the Age in Charts on Revelation

Ed,

Thanks for you thoughts on methods of presenting truth as we see it; but
Herb Evans has asked me, over and over, what I mean by “last
day” and the “End”! This is not due to ignorance but partially to the refusal to accept the word of the Lord that “He will raise up every/all believers on the last day”!! More importantly, it is due to rejecting THE SIGN of the “End of the Age and last day” for the Rapture!!!

This rejection is reflected in Charts on Revelation! They do not recognize the End of the Age includes Daniel’s 70th Seven which in turn includes the great tribulation of 1260 plus days!! They refuse to agree THE SIGNS of Christ’s coming and Presence occur only at the End of the Age…on one of the days after great tribulation!!!

Jesus inextricably linked the RESULTS of THE SIGNS of the Day of His coming and the effects of His Presence with the darkening of the sun, blood-redness of the moon and the stars falling from heaven! The initial result is mankind's reaction to a sudden departure of millions of Believers as we are snatched above from “earth toward heaven”!! This reaction is totally dependant on signs of Christ’s coming which include the instant Rapture itself; while THE SIGN of His Presence with all the Saints immediately follows!!!

Initial Reaction to Signs – Millions Fear; Jews Mourn

THE SIGN of Christ’s Presence occurs before the Angels take over and complete the task of “gathering the Elect out of the 4 winds unto Jesus from all the extremities of the heavens”! The vertical phase of the gathering from the earth will be instant as well as a very short movement; still within sight of all those left behind at any given point around the globe!! The horizontal flight under the power of angels augments the impact of THE SIGN of His Presence with all the Saints while the tribes of earth mourn; and while millions “faint from fear or beg to escape all these things that happens and to prevail to stand before the Son of Man”!!! Luke 21:26,28,31,36.

Jesus gives the order in the text of Matthew and Mark: Matt.24:29; Mark 13:27 - The Signs; the Initial gathering and result: mourning by the tribes of earth; Matt.24:30 – THE SIGN: Christ’s Presence with all the Saints being gathered by the Angels as Jews "continue" to mourn and beg to escape and to prevail to stand before the Son of Man; they will be kept alive. Matt.24:31; Luke 21:28,31,36; 17:33.

Jesus again refers to this glorious event in Rev.1:7. He will appear in the sight of all men who are left behind! “Behold, He comes with clouds and every eye will see Him and those who pierced Him (coming with Him; THE SIGN) and all the tribes of the land will wail over Him”. [I admit the "coming with Him" is my interpretation].

The Charts assume the End of the Age occurs before the start of the great tribulation and even before the start of Daniel’s 70th Seven of 1260 + days! So the Charts cannot show THE SIGN at which time the angels take over the gathering of the Elect on the Last Day!! God will bring the souls of all the Trib-Martyrs with Jesus and He will gather the “called, Elect and faithful so they may come with Him to make war on His enemies”!!! Rev.17:14.

Jesus must come FOR all the Saints before He comes WITH all the Saints on that “unique DAY”! At the End of the Age on the Last Day!! It is the Day of Deliverance for all who believe or who mourn and suddenly “admire” Him… as well as the Day of Vengeance and Destruction!!! John 6:38-40; Zech.14:5-7; I Thess.3:13; 2 Thess. 1:7-10.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

In other words, you do not want to discuss it. That is fine. I guess the Holy Spirit wasted his time in putting things other than the Gospel in the scriptures. I would expect that in the future you would concentrate on preaching the Gospel instead of interloping the posts of others. Have a nice day.-- Herb Evans

 

And Mel Miller has avoided my questions over and over. Then he charrges me with ignorance and pretends to know my motives for asking these questions. Now, it seems that Mel does not really want to debate the issue but only to post his propoganda. -- Herb Evans

 

Mel, I have viewed your Last Day link. I have never seen such a convoluted, disjointed presentation on prophecy in my life. I can't even discover what I agree with and what I do not in that morass of scripture references intermixed with your views, much of which have no basis in the references that you post. I could dissect the "this means this" and "that means that" of 7 Day Adventists better than your rendition of end time. I must say that there is some valuable data here, if one could sift it out from your fanciful interpretations and pontifications. Your mathematical gyrations are a classic. Your two halfs of the 70th week explanation is novel in the way that you get there, although I believe in the two halves. Is it safe to say that you are a post tribber? -- Herb Evans

 

Pictorial Chart of Revelation

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One reason I don't answer your repeated questions on the meaning of "last day" and "end of the age" is that you fail to support your ideas! Another reason is that even a child will not question what is meant by "Last” in a Series or “End” of a Time-Period"!! Pre-Tribbers have created
an illogical concept of the End-Time Tribulation as being a single Day!!!

1. Above you say I charged you with "ignorance"! False charge!! I said you are NOT guilty of ignorance!!!

2. In this morning's barrage against the truth of Jesus regarding what
He meant by the "last day; end of the age" (that I presented at 1 AM; #88), you remain strangely silent in two responses! As if I had failed completely to give an explicit answer to your repeated question!! The
sign of being open to truth is to accept the "Word"; not ignore it!!!

3. Your final reaction at 8:30 this morning judges my website to be a "convoluted morass of fanciful pontifications"! You find "valuable data" but are unable to decipher the connotations!! Is it because your mind is closed to the possibility that Jesus will not only "gather Jewish Believers from earth to heaven on the last day", as you affirm, but that the “Last Day is also the End of this Age" for ALL Believers?!!!

4. Without evidence, in #42, You claim: “The last trump" [a trump
for the church & a trump for the Jews is not to be twisted or confused with the 7th "trumpet" of Revelation”. In #22 you correctly affirm only half the truth; then deny Jesus describes the Rapture: “Mark 13: 26 is the Lord's coming in power
and glory--not the rapture. It is THEN that he gathers the elect. This gathering occurs at the SC in power and glory. In #38 you affirm, without evidence: “The elect of Matthew 24 are Jewish elect/saints—not Church Age elect/saints”.

These texts reveal the Post-Trib Rapture of the Elect occurs
on the Last Day. You admitted that if I want to call it a post-trib rapture, “FINE”! It is the Rapture of the same Elect
who come “with Him” in Rev.17:14 to destroy His enemies!! These Elect are ALL the Saints of all the Ages and include those who “watch until He appears on one of the days after the great tribulation”!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

This is the coming in power and Great Glory that I told you about in Matthew 24 and Mark. It is not that some of your facts are wrong; it is that you have them in the wrong time frame. -- Herb Evans

 

Mel,
It is extremely difficult to repond to your posts, comment by comment in that you use so many dilineators that show up in my response post. No wonder you are having problems with it. I try to respond without using my word processor, but I guess that i will have to go to it. Is it possible to go a small chunk at a time instead of covering our differences throughout the whole Bible? -- Herb Evans

 

Revelation Charts

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Herb,

Have it your way and continue the illogical hypothesis that the Day of the
Lord is actually the 70th Seven of Daniel! The Day of the Lord is a Single
Solar Day; not 3 1/2 times plus 3 1/2 times!! The Day of the Lord begins
the 1000-Years that may be called an extension of the Day of Lord only if it is viewed as "One Day" in God's reckoning of Time!!! 2 Peter 3:8-12.

The Day of the Lord, from our viewpoint of time, is limited to the 12-Hour-Day of Christ's Presence in glory and power! It is a "unique day, neither
day nor night and is known as such only to the Lord"!! It's events begin when the
"sun turns dark at noon" and ends when the light returns at "twilight"; on that DAY the Lord will come with ALL the Saints and be King over all the earth"!!! Amos 8:9; Zech.14:5-9.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs: For a "small chunk at a time"!

 

Herb,

Have it your way and continue the illogical hypothesis that the Day of the
Lord is actually the 70th Seven of Daniel!

You seem to cherry pick a person’s position, before you hear it, without posting their quote, to create a discussion about what you want to discuss. So, okay, let us get on with the “Day of the Lord.”

These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens . . . – Gen 2:4

The Lord did not make the earth in one solar day but six days. This demonstrates that your insistence of a solar day for the day of the Lord and that the day of the lord cannot be any extended duration beyond that solar day is a rabid dogmatism that permeates your views on prophecy.

Still, there are two kinds of pre-millennialists, the Scofield type who believe as you do in regard to the beginning of the Day of the Lord and others who believe that the Day of the Lord begins with the 70th week of Daniel. So, I don’t know what difference that the duration makes in regard to the pre or post trib time frames, if both sides recognize that the Day of the Lord includes this sun and moon phenomena as a terminus at the end of the Great tribulation?

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. – Joel 2:31

In Matthew 24:29-31, the order of events are:

1. Moon and stars
2. His Coming
3. Saints gathered

Whether or not we can agree on the Day of the Lord’s terminus at the end of the 70th week, which may or may not include the millennial reign of Christ, it is the beginning of the 70th week that we do not agree upon nor do we agree on the time duration of the Day of the Lord.

Nevertheless, the sun and moon phenomena BEFORE His Coming and BEFORE the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord is the climax Day of the broader “day of the Lord” period.

So, how is the Day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night a surprise to anyone, when the moon and star thing takes place? How is the “they say peace and safety” of 1 Thess. 5:2, 3 consistent with the moon and stars thing? Does anyone escape the moon and the stars thing before your rapture? How? If the moon and stars thing takes place after His coming, what is the Great and terrible Day of the Lord? One , Two, or Three? – Herb Evans

 

The Day of the Lord is a Single Solar Day; not 3 1/2 times plus 3 1/2 times!! The Day of the Lord begins the 1000-Years that may be called an extension of the Day of Lord only if it is viewed as "One Day" in God's reckoning of Time!!! 2 Peter 3:8-12. -- Mel

Indeed, one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, because God is timeless. However, one day with us is not as a thousand years, and one day of a thousand years is not a solar day. – Herb Evans

The Day of the Lord, from our viewpoint of time, is limited to the 12-Hour-Day of Christ's Presence in glory and power! It is a "unique day, neither day nor night and is known as such only to the Lord"!! It's events begin when the "sun turns dark at noon" and ends when the light returns at "twilight"; on that DAY the Lord will come with ALL the Saints and be King over all the earth"!!! Amos 8:9; Zech.14:5-9. -- mel

A couple of Days of the Lord and His Day of anger are involved in the O.T. in the judgment of particular nations but not the judgment of ALL nations. These Days were longer than one solar day

1. Babylon against the Israel – Lam. 1:2,2-22; Ezekiel 13:5
2. Babylon against Egypt -- Ezek. 30:3-11; Jer. 46:2-10

The Great Day includes the Time of Jacob’s Trouble, a Day of Darkness

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: -- Jer. 30:7, 8

The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness . . . Zeph. 1:14, 15

The Day of God/ Day of the Lord

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? – 2 Pet. 3:10-12

And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that GREAT DAY OF GOD ALMIGHTY. Behold, I come as a Thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. –Rev. 16:12-16

The day of the Lord or Day of God does include the heavenly catastrophe, but it also includes the great battle of Armageddon and the Second Coming of the Lord coming as a THIEF (1 thess. 5:2). Moreover, you still have folks WATCHING in this Day of God. -- herb Evans

 

Day of the Lord includes a lot in one Day?

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Zec 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

Zec 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Zec 14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

Zec 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Zec 14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

Zec 14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

Zec 14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Zec 14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

Zec 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

That Day is some day! -- Herb Evans

 

The Resurrection Order (all part of the First Resurrection)​

1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Every man in his own order – 1 Cor. 15:23

1. Christ the firstfruits and those who arose early. -- 1 Cor 15:23
2. the pre-trib Harvest – 1 Cor. 15:23
3. The post Trib resurrection gleanings and the Kingdom-- 1Co 15:24, 25

-- Herb Evans

 

Mel, is the day of salvation a solar day? -- Herb Evans

2Co 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)