Pictoral Chart of Revelation

[Mel Miller]

Illogical Charts of the Book of Revelation

I thought Mel and other Post-Tribs wound be interested in more illogical stuff. Enjoy! -- Herb Evans

IS BARNEY THE EVIL ONE ?

Everyone knows Barney . . . that cute purple dinosaur. But here's something that you may not know:

1. Start with the given: CUTE PURPLE DINOSAUR

2. Change all U's to V's (which is proper Latin anyway) CVTE PVRPLE DINOSAVR

3. Extract all Roman Numerals: C - V- V - L - D- I - V

4. Convert these into Arabic values: 100, 5, 5, 50, 500, 1, 5

5. Add these numbers up:

100
5
5
50
500
1
+ 5
----
666

There you have it. This proves that pre-tribulationism is wrong and that we are going through the tribulation. It is a valid mathematical proof that Barney is the Antichrist!

--Copied and adapted by Herb Evans - with apologies to the originals

____________________________________________________________

Friends,

We have yet to learn what is "illogical" about the Endtime Events of the
the Charts on the Book of Revelation.

The problem with the usual approach to charting the Book of Revelation
comes from picking the wrong starting point for each of the seven things that "has come" beginning with the sixth Seal.

The observation should be made that the "past tense" is used not only of
what "has occurred" during the first four Seals, but of what occurs during the seals, trumpets and vials! What has occurred is relative to the War in Heaven at Midpoint of Daniel's 70th Seven!! Charts should not begin with the Seals placed in the first half of the final 7-years since it's obvious the Martyrs' prayers go up to God in the 5th Seal after "Midweek"; not prior to midweek as if the TRIBULATION is a seven-year period!!!

Events of Charts on Revelation should begin with what Jesus revealed will be the Sign for us to know the Endtime has begun. Matt.24:15,21,29,33.

Look at Rev.12:1-5 and note that Christ's reign over the earth is "about to begin". But not until over 1900 years later when, at Midweek of Daniel's 70th Seven, there's a War in Heaven between Michael and Satan! Satan and his angels were cast (past tense...relative to the Endtime sign) to earth resulting in TRIBULATION, the greatest tribulation of all time!! God's Kingdom Power and the authority of His Christ also "occurred" (past tense)
...for 3 1/2 times...not for 7 years of TRIBULATION!!! Rev.12:7-14.

The starting point for the "Charts" begin with a false assumption of the
time-period of TRIBULATION to which Jesus refers! The Seals, Trumpets
and Plagues are looked upon in the Past Tense relative to what "WAS finished at the deaths of the Two Prophets" and what "was finished in the days whenever the 7th Trumpet is about to sound"!! Rev.10:6-7; 11:6-7.
Christ has "begun to rule" when "chronos-time shall be no longer" subject to the 1260-day countdown and the nations will be ruled with a rod of iron AS OF THE 7th TRUMPET!!! Rev.11:15-18.

The 7th Trumpet is the "appointed (kairos) time" specified in Revelation for the Resurrection and Rapture (to judge the dead in Christ and reward
the prophets and saints and all who fear God, both small and great) and
for Retribution on those who are "destroying the earth".

I see nothing "illogical" about this climax of Endtime Events.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Herb Evans]

____________________________________________________________

Friends,

We have yet to learn what is "illogical" about the Endtime Events of the
the Charts on the Book of Revelation.

The problem with the usual approach to charting the Book of Revelation
comes from picking the wrong starting point for each of the seven things that "has come" beginning with the sixth Seal.

The observation should be made that the "past tense" is used not only of
what "has occurred" during the first four Seals, but of what occurs during the seals, trumpets and vials! What has occurred is relative to the War in Heaven at Midpoint of Daniel's 70th Seven!! Charts should not begin with the Seals placed in the first half of the final 7-years since it's obvious the Martyrs' prayers go up to God in the 5th Seal after "Midweek"; not prior to midweek as if the TRIBULATION is a seven-year period!!!

Events of Charts on Revelation should begin with what Jesus revealed will be the Sign for us to know the Endtime has begun. Matt.24:15,21,29,33.

Look at Rev.12:1-5 and note that Christ's reign over the earth is "about to begin". But not until over 1900 years later when, at Midweek of Daniel's 70th Seven, there's a War in Heaven between Michael and Satan! Satan and his angels were cast (past tense...relative to the Endtime sign) to earth resulting in TRIBULATION, the greatest tribulation of all time!! God's Kingdom Power and the authority of His Christ also "occurred" (past tense)
...for 3 1/2 times...not for 7 years of TRIBULATION!!! Rev.12:7-14.

The starting point for the "Charts" begin with a false assumption of the
time-period of TRIBULATION to which Jesus refers! The Seals, Trumpets
and Plagues are looked upon in the Past Tense relative to what "WAS finished at the deaths of the Two Prophets" and what "was finished in the days whenever the 7th Trumpet is about to sound"!! Rev.10:6-7; 11:6-7.
Christ has "begun to rule" when "chronos-time shall be no longer" subject to the 1260-day countdown and the nations will be ruled with a rod of iron AS OF THE 7th TRUMPET!!! Rev.11:15-18.

The 7th Trumpet is the "appointed (kairos) time" specified in Revelation for the Resurrection and Rapture (to judge the dead in Christ and reward
the prophets and saints and all who fear God, both small and great) and
for Retribution on those who are "destroying the earth".

I see nothing "illogical" about this climax of Endtime Events.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

Then why did you use the term "illogical" in conjunction with what you thought that I believed as you read my mind? The terms 1260 days , 42 months, time, times, and a half time all have to do with the last half of Daniel's 70th week and starts with the abomination. The first half is what you are missing, which ends with thr abomination. Of course, Mel has the KEY to the starts and stops. Just ask him. -- Herb Evans

 

[Ed Edwards]

Sorry, I've been off the air for three days

------------------------------
Expanded pretrib pre-mill timeline:

0. church age continues

1. rapture/resurrection

2. The 7-year Tribulation Period

2a. Starting events
2a1. The seven year AC/Israel treaty
2a2. The revelation of the AC

2b. the first half (3.5years) - the Tribulation period
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2b1. The Seal Judgments (Revelation 6)
2b2. Rise of the Antichrist
2b3. Ten nation confederacy (Daniel 2:42-44;
---- Daniel 7:7,24; Rev 12:3; Rev 17:12,16)
2b4. The ministry of Elijah (Rev 11:3, Malachi 4:5,6)
2b5. Ministry of the 144,000 Israeli (Rev 7)
2b6. The Trumpet judgements/wrath (Rev 8-9)
2b7. The false church (ecclesiastical Babylon)
----- (Revelation 17:1-6)

2c. the mid-tribulation events
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2c1. The Little Scroll (Rev 10)
2c2. AC killed (Rev 13:3)
2c3. Satan cast out of heaven (Rev 12:7,9)
2c4. Resurrection of AC (Rev 13:3,4)
2c5. 3 kings killed, 7 submit to AC
2c6. destruction by AC of false church (Rev 7:16)
2c7. Death/resurrection of two witnesses
2c8. Worship of the AC starts (Rev 13:3,4,8 )
2c9. Rise of the False Prophet (Rev 13:11-15)
2c10. MOB=mark of the beast (Rev 13:16-18 )
2c11. 7-year covenant broken (Isaiah 28:18; Daniel 11:41)
2c12. AOD=abomination of Desolation
----- (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15,16; 2 Thess 2:4)
2c13. Persecution of the Jews begins
----- (Rev 12:1-6)

2d. the second half (3.5years) - the Great Tribulation period
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2d0. Rule of the Antichrist
2d1. the Bowl Judgments/wrath (Rev 16)
2d2. protection of the Jewish Remnant
---- (Micah 2:12; Matthew 24:16; Revelation 12:6,14)
2d3. Armageddon (these items are in time sequence):

2d3a. - assembling the allies of AC
------- (Rev 16:12-16)
2d3b. - destruction of Babylon
------- (Isaiah 13; Jeremiah 50-51; Revelation 18 )
2d3c. - Fall of Jerusalem
------- (Micah 4:11-5:1; Zachariah 12:1-9; 14:1,2)
2d3d. - Armies of AC at Bozrah (Jeremiah 49:13,14)
2d3e. - Conversion of Israel complete
------- (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25-27)

(2e the end of the Trib, which is the Second Advent
---- of Jesus to defeat the AC and set up the MK)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
3a. postrib gathering and resurrection of the trib saints
3b. antichrist and false prophet are cast alive into the Lake of Fire
- 19:20-22!
3c. The Judgment of the Nations= Matthew 25:31-46

4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom

5. Satan loosed for a little season to deceive the Nations - Revelation 20:7-8!

6. The final battle of God and Magog! - Revelation 20:8-9!

7. Satan cast into the lake of Fire. - Revelation 20:10!

8. The Great White Throne of Judgment! - Revelation 20:11-15!

9.new heaven & new earth - 2 Peter 3:10

10. The Eternal Kingdom! The New Heavens and New Earth
and the New Jerusalem! - Revelation 21:1-3!

 

[Herb Evans]

Sorry, I've been off the air for three days

------------------------------
Expanded pretrib pre-mill timeline:

0. church age continues

1. rapture/resurrection

2. The 7-year Tribulation Period

2a. Starting events
2a1. The seven year AC/Israel treaty
2a2. The revelation of the AC

2b. the first half (3.5years) - the Tribulation period
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2b1. The Seal Judgments (Revelation 6)
2b2. Rise of the Antichrist
2b3. Ten nation confederacy (Daniel 2:42-44;
---- Daniel 7:7,24; Rev 12:3; Rev 17:12,16)
2b4. The ministry of Elijah (Rev 11:3, Malachi 4:5,6)
2b5. Ministry of the 144,000 Israeli (Rev 7)
2b6. The Trumpet judgements/wrath (Rev 8-9)
2b7. The false church (ecclesiastical Babylon)
----- (Revelation 17:1-6)

2c. the mid-tribulation events
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2c1. The Little Scroll (Rev 10)
2c2. AC killed (Rev 13:3)
2c3. Satan cast out of heaven (Rev 12:7,9)
2c4. Resurrection of AC (Rev 13:3,4)
2c5. 3 kings killed, 7 submit to AC
2c6. destruction by AC of false church (Rev 7:16)
2c7. Death/resurrection of two witnesses
2c8. Worship of the AC starts (Rev 13:3,4,8 )
2c9. Rise of the False Prophet (Rev 13:11-15)
2c10. MOB=mark of the beast (Rev 13:16-18 )
2c11. 7-year covenant broken (Isaiah 28:18; Daniel 11:41)
2c12. AOD=abomination of Desolation
----- (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15,16; 2 Thess 2:4)
2c13. Persecution of the Jews begins
----- (Rev 12:1-6)

2d. the second half (3.5years) - the Great Tribulation period
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2d0. Rule of the Antichrist
2d1. the Bowl Judgments/wrath (Rev 16)
2d2. protection of the Jewish Remnant
---- (Micah 2:12; Matthew 24:16; Revelation 12:6,14)
2d3. Armageddon (these items are in time sequence):

2d3a. - assembling the allies of AC
------- (Rev 16:12-16)
2d3b. - destruction of Babylon
------- (Isaiah 13; Jeremiah 50-51; Revelation 18 )
2d3c. - Fall of Jerusalem
------- (Micah 4:11-5:1; Zachariah 12:1-9; 14:1,2)
2d3d. - Armies of AC at Bozrah (Jeremiah 49:13,14)
2d3e. - Conversion of Israel complete
------- (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25-27)

(2e the end of the Trib, which is the Second Advent
---- of Jesus to defeat the AC and set up the MK)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
3a. postrib gathering and resurrection of the trib saints
3b. antichrist and false prophet are cast alive into the Lake of Fire
- 19:20-22!
3c. The Judgment of the Nations= Matthew 25:31-46

4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom

5. Satan loosed for a little season to deceive the Nations - Revelation 20:7-8!

6. The final battle of God and Magog! - Revelation 20:8-9!

7. Satan cast into the lake of Fire. - Revelation 20:10!

8. The Great White Throne of Judgment! - Revelation 20:11-15!

9.new heaven & new earth - 2 Peter 3:10

10. The Eternal Kingdom! The New Heavens and New Earth
and the New Jerusalem! - Revelation 21:1-3!

Ed, pretty good run down. Not perfect, but who is on prophecy? Oh yes, Mel's is perfect. Just ask him. -- Herb Evans

 

[Mel Miller]

Chart of Revelation

Herb and Ed,

Quote from Herb:
___________________________________________________________
"Then why did you use the term "illogical" in conjunction with what you thought that I believed as you read my mind? The terms 1260 days , 42 months, time, times, and a half time all have to do with the last half of Daniel's 70th week and starts with the abomination. The first half is what you are missing, which ends with the abomination. Of course, Mel has the KEY to the starts and stops. Just ask him. -- Herb Evans
_____________________________________________________

Quote from Ed Edwards:
____________________________________________________________
"2. The 7-year Tribulation Period

2a. Starting events
2a1. The seven year AC/Israel treaty
2a2. The revelation of the AC

2b. the first half (3.5years) - the Tribulation period
___________________________________________________________

Herb thinks Ed's outline is nearly perfect; yet Herb says the 1260 days
of Revelation occur during the "last half" of Daniel's 70th week! Ed says
the 1260 days occur during the "first half" of Daniel's 70th week!! These
two can't even agree with one another!!!

[In this case Ed's view is illogical and we have yet to show why only Herb's timing is logical for the 2nd half of the 70th Seven].

Neither Herb nor Ed has shown when the Rapture must occur, or even why it might be placed on a Chart of events prior to the first half of Daniel's 70th Seven! They can't plot the Rapture prior to the 70th Seven since Revelation agrees with Jesus that the Resurrection of the Saints occurs "in the days after the end of the great tribulation"!! Only the 7th Trumpet reveals the "appointed time for the Resurrection and Rewards to the Prophets and Saints and to all who fear God, both small and great"!!!
Matt.24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:6-7,18.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Mel Miller]

Chart of Revelation

Herb Evans and Ed Edwards,

Quotes:
______________________________________________________________
"The first half is what you are missing". Herb

"The first half (3.5 years) - the Tribulation period". Ed
_______________________________________________________

It is time to see what is "illogical" about the Charts on Revelation! It has to do with what is called "the tribulation of seven years"!! [Why does Ed
call the "first half" a period of Tribulation?] Surely Jesus thought the Great Tribulation of Daniel's 3 1/2 times is that of "Jacob's Trouble"!!! Dan.12:1.

Dispensationalists begin their charts with the unwarranted assumption
that the first 3.5 years are part of the time of "Jacob's Trouble"! Instead,
it will be a time of peace for Israel when she dwells in cities without the
need for protective walls or fences!! Ezek.38-39. Incorporating the first half of the 70th Seven in a Chart on events of the Book of Revelation
distorts the picture and the timing for the Seals, Trumpets and Vials!!!

Usually the Seals are considered as belonging only to the first half of Daniel's Week! But Seal Two shows "peace taken from the earth" and this does not take place until Midpoint of the 70th Seven!! Ignoring this fact is the basis, from the very start, for calling the "first half" of the final 7
years a period of Tribulation that inordinately includes the Seven Seals!!!

It remains to be discussed as to when the First Seal is or will continue to be fulfilled! But the above assumption of the Seals being a reference to the "first half" of the final 7 years of Prophecy is illogical and therefore false!! Babylon the Great will rule the nations for a "short time" before we may be sure of the identity of the Antichrist or be able to "know" the 1260-Day "Endtime" has begun for certain!!! Matt.24:15,21,29,33.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Herb Evans]

Herb and Ed,

Quote from Herb:
___________________________________________________________
"Then why did you use the term "illogical" in conjunction with what you thought that I believed as you read my mind? The terms 1260 days , 42 months, time, times, and a half time all have to do with the last half of Daniel's 70th week and starts with the abomination. The first half is what you are missing, which ends with the abomination. Of course, Mel has the KEY to the starts and stops. Just ask him. -- Herb Evans
_____________________________________________________

Quote from Ed Edwards:
____________________________________________________________
"2. The 7-year Tribulation Period

2a. Starting events
2a1. The seven year AC/Israel treaty
2a2. The revelation of the AC

2b. the first half (3.5years) - the Tribulation period
___________________________________________________________

Herb thinks Ed's outline is nearly perfect; yet Herb says the 1260 days
of Revelation occur during the "last half" of Daniel's 70th week! Ed says
the 1260 days occur during the "first half" of Daniel's 70th week!! These
two can't even agree with one another!!!

[In this case Ed's view is illogical and we have yet to show why only Herb's timing is logical for the 2nd half of the 70th Seven].

Neither Herb nor Ed has shown when the Rapture must occur, or even why it might be placed on a Chart of events prior to the first half of Daniel's 70th Seven! They can't plot the Rapture prior to the 70th Seven since Revelation agrees with Jesus that the Resurrection of the Saints occurs "in the days after the end of the great tribulation"!! Only the 7th Trumpet reveals the "appointed time for the Resurrection and Rewards to the Prophets and Saints and to all who fear God, both small and great"!!!
Matt.24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:6-7,18.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

Well, obviously there 1260 plus 1260 is the total 70th week, as is 42 plus 42. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that out. It was a good outline as I said, but not perfect as I said. You are grasping at straws, Me. Some folks use the entire 7 years to describe the tribulation period, other fuss about that, so I use the term 70th week to avoid the confusion. -- Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

Herb thinks Ed's outline is nearly perfect; yet Herb says the 1260 days
of Revelation occur during the "last half" of Daniel's 70th week! Ed says
the 1260 days occur during the "first half" of Daniel's 70th week!! These
two can't even agree with one another!!!

No, 1260 days occur in both halves of the 70th week. And besides I did not use the word "occur" if you care to read what I did say. -- Herb Evans

 

[Mel Miller]

Chart of Revelation

Well, obviously there 1260 plus 1260 is the total 70th week, as is 42 plus 42. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that out. It was a good outline as I said, but not perfect as I said. You are grasping at straws, Me. Some folks use the entire 7 years to describe the tribulation period, other fuss about that, so I use the term 70th week to avoid the confusion. -- Herb Evans

_____________________________________________________________

I have no dispute with you or Ed about the futuricity of Daniel's entire
70th Seven. My point is that you two do not agree as to which half the
Two Prophets demonstrate God's Kingdom Power for 1260 days. Also neither one of you considers that the first half of that 7 years is not
recognized in Revelation as part of the Endtime; but only the 2nd half!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Mel Miller]

Chart of Revelation

Well, obviously there 1260 plus 1260 is the total 70th week, as is 42 plus 42. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that out. It was a good outline as I said, but not perfect as I said. You are grasping at straws, Me. Some folks use the entire 7 years to describe the tribulation period, other fuss about that, so I use the term 70th week to avoid the confusion. -- Herb Evans

_____________________________________________________________

In your response, you overlooked what you have repeatedly asked about,
i.e., why your list of events in Revelation is "illogical"! You have inserted the first half of Daniel's 70th Seven when no mention of it is made in the book!! You have no evidence that the Seals occur in the first half!!!

Again,

Well, obviously there 1260 plus 1260 is the total 70th week, as is 42 plus 42. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that out. It was a good outline as I said, but not perfect as I said. You are grasping at straws, Me. Some folks use the entire 7 years to describe the tribulation period, other fuss about that, so I use the term 70th week to avoid the confusion. -- Herb Evans

_____________________________________________________________
Again,
I have no dispute with you or Ed about the futuricity of Daniel's entire
70th Seven. My point is that you two do not agree as to which half the
Two Prophets demonstrate God's Kingdom Power for 1260 days. Also neither one of you considers that the first half of that 7 years is not
recognized in Revelation as part of the Endtime; but only the 2nd half!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Mel Miller]

Chart of Revelation

Herb thinks Ed's outline is nearly perfect; yet Herb says the 1260 days
of Revelation occur during the "last half" of Daniel's 70th week! Ed says
the 1260 days occur during the "first half" of Daniel's 70th week!! These
two can't even agree with one another!!!

No, 1260 days occur in both halves of the 70th week. And besides I did not use the word "occur" if you care to read what I did say. -- Herb Evans

_____________________________________________________________

I repeat, you two do not agree on a most obvious point of the Chart!!!

Again,

Well, obviously there 1260 plus 1260 is the total 70th week, as is 42 plus 42. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that out. It was a good outline as I said, but not perfect as I said. You are grasping at straws, Me. Some folks use the entire 7 years to describe the tribulation period, other fuss about that, so I use the term 70th week to avoid the confusion. -- Herb Evans

_____________________________________________________________

In your response, you overlooked what you have repeatedly asked about,
i.e., why your list of events in Revelation is "illogical"! You have inserted the first half of Daniel's 70th Seven when no mention of it is made in the book!! You have no evidence that the Seals occur in the first half!!!

Again,

Well, obviously there 1260 plus 1260 is the total 70th week, as is 42 plus 42. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that out. It was a good outline as I said, but not perfect as I said. You are grasping at straws, Me. Some folks use the entire 7 years to describe the tribulation period, other fuss about that, so I use the term 70th week to avoid the confusion. -- Herb Evans

_____________________________________________________________
Again,
I have no dispute with you or Ed about the futuricity of Daniel's entire
70th Seven. My point is that you two do not agree as to which half the
Two Prophets demonstrate God's Kingdom Power for 1260 days. Also neither one of you considers that the first half of that 7 years is not
recognized in Revelation as part of the Endtime; but only the 2nd half!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Herb Evans]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb Evans
Herb thinks Ed's outline is nearly perfect; yet Herb says the 1260 days of Revelation occur during the "last half" of Daniel's 70th week! Ed says the 1260 days occur during the "first half" of Daniel's 70th week!! These two can't even agree with one another!!!

No, 1260 days occur in both halves of the 70th week. And besides I did not use the word "occur" if you care to read what I did say. -- Herb Evans

__________________________________________________ ___________

I repeat, you two do not agree on a most obvious point of the Chart!!!

I am not worried about what we agree on or the chart, I am concerned with the scriptures and what they teach. Dividing to conquer will not work here. -- Herb Evans

Again,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb Evans
Well, obviously there 1260 plus 1260 is the total 70th week, as is 42 plus 42. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that out. It was a good outline as I said, but not perfect as I said. You are grasping at straws, Mel. Some folks use the entire 7 years to describe the tribulation period, other fuss about that, so I use the term 70th week to avoid the confusion. -- Herb Evans

__________________________________________________ ___________

In your response, you overlooked what you have repeatedly asked about,
i.e., why your list of events in Revelation is "illogical"! You have inserted the first half of Daniel's 70th Seven when no mention of it is made in the book!! You have no evidence that the Seals occur in the first half!!!

Well, it is mentioned in Daniel, and the seals overlay Matthew 24. As to how much of Daniel's 70th week is covered in the seals, that can be disputed. You have no evidence that the seals occur in the last half. -- Herb Evans

Again,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb Evans
Well, obviously there 1260 plus 1260 is the total 70th week, as is 42 plus 42. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that out. It was a good outline as I said, but not perfect as I said. You are grasping at straws, Me. Some folks use the entire 7 years to describe the tribulation period, other fuss about that, so I use the term 70th week to avoid the confusion. -- Herb Evans

__________________________________________________ ___________
Again,
I have no dispute with you or Ed about the futuricity of Daniel's entire
70th Seven. My point is that you two do not agree as to which half the
Two Prophets demonstrate God's Kingdom Power for 1260 days. Also neither one of you considers that the first half of that 7 years is not
recognized in Revelation as part of the Endtime; but only the 2nd half!

Why do you know quit the divide and conquer routine and deal with each of us separately. It is not important that I agree with other pretribbers on everthing any more than you agreeing with other post tribbers on everything. -- Herb Evans

 

[Mel Miller]

Chart of Revelation

I am not worried about what we agree on or the chart, I am concerned with the scriptures and what they teach. Dividing to conquer will not work here. -- Herb Evans

The subject of this thread IS about the Chart; so you are wrong not to be “concerned”! I don’t need to “divide and conquer”!! But just yield to Scripture and discern the truth!!!
I wrote:
“You have inserted the first half of Daniel's 70th Seven when no specific mention of it is made in the Book of Revelation! You have no evidence that the Seals occur in the first half”!! I gave you Scripture to show that Seal Two begins the Midpoint of the 7 Years!! You choose so far to ignore this evidence for the truth!!! [“Peace is taken from earth” at midpoint; Rv.6:4].

Well, it is mentioned in Daniel, and the seals overlay Matthew 24. As to how much of Daniel's 70th week is covered in the seals, that can be disputed. You have no evidence that the seals occur in the last half. -- Herb Evans

I agree with you that Seal #2 overlays Matthew 24’s sign; but only for the start of the1260-Day Endtime! Again, this Endtime is limited by Daniel to 1290 days because his special concern was about events of the final 3½ years; not of the first 3½ years!! The Book of Revelation allows only that Seal #1 pre-dates the Endtime!!!

[Watch now as the Pope begins to effect the creation of Babylon the Great as part of fulfilling Seal #One! There can be no "taking away of peace until it is there to be "taken away"!! The attempt to "mix the
iron and clay in the seed of men" is now in full force!!! Dan.2:40-43].

Why do you know (not?) quit the divide and conquer routine and deal with each of us separately. It is not important that I agree with other pre-tribbers on everthing any more than you agreeing with other post tribbers on everything. -- Herb Evans

Then why did you make a point of stating that Ed’s chart is “nearly perfect”? You opened the way for me to show you don’t agree with him on a very distinguishing factor of the great tribulation, i.e., that the Two Witnesses will demonstrate God’s Kingdom Power during the 2ND half of Daniel’s 70th Seven; NOT during the first half as Ed insists!

You objected before that I introduced Mark 13:27 to prove a point! I just simply agreed with you that Mark 13:27 and Matt.24:31 refer to the same event but added that it proves Jesus will send the Angels to complete the “gathering of Elect Saints” after He first “gathers us from the extremities of earth to the extremities of heaven”!! You fail again to disprove the truth, by an aside to “divide and conquer”, when I only responded to remarks you introduced by your claim of “near-perfection” in Ed’s chart!!!


Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Herb Evans]

Mel Miller]

I am not worried about what we agree on or the chart, I am concerned with the scriptures and what they teach. Dividing to conquer will not work here. -- Herb Evans

The subject of this thread IS about the Chart; so you are wrong not to be “concerned”! I don’t need to “divide and conquer”!! But just yield to Scripture and discern the truth!!!

Dittos to you! Now, we are even with our pontification. -- Herb Evans

I wrote:
“You have inserted the first half of Daniel's 70th Seven when no specific mention of it is made in the Book of Revelation! You have no evidence that the Seals occur in the first half”!! I gave you Scripture to show that Seal Two begins the Midpoint of the 7 Years!! You choose so far to ignore this evidence for the truth!!! [“Peace is taken from earth” at midpoint; Rv.6:4].

You should be concerned more with when peace comes to the earth through the antichrist in the seals after there is no peace. He breaks that covenant of peace in the middle of the 70th week. The ignorance is yours. -- Herb Evans

Well, it is mentioned in Daniel, and the seals overlay Matthew 24. As to how much of Daniel's 70th week is covered in the seals, that can be disputed. You have no evidence that the seals occur in the last half. -- Herb Evans

I agree with you that Seal #2 overlays Matthew 24’s sign; but only for the start of the1260-Day Endtime! Again, this Endtime is limited by Daniel to 1290 days because his special concern was about events of the final 3½ years; not of the first 3½ years!! The Book of Revelation allows only that Seal #1 pre-dates the Endtime!!!

No, I mean that the seals overlay most of Matthew 24; the seals are a general description of Daniel's 70th week. he mid point of Matthew 24 is when the abomibnation of desolation comes on the scene. Man, this pontucation stuff is fun. -- Herb Evans

[Watch now as the Pope begins to effect the creation of Babylon the Great as part of fulfilling Seal #One! There can be no "taking away of peace until it is there to be "taken away"!! The attempt to "mix the
iron and clay in the seed of men" is now in full force!!! Dan.2:40-43].

Why do you know (not?) quit the divide and conquer routine and deal with each of us separately. It is not important that I agree with other pre-tribbers on everthing any more than you agreeing with other post tribbers on everything. -- Herb Evans

Then why did you make a point of stating that Ed’s chart is “nearly perfect”? You opened the way for me to show you don’t agree with him on a very distinguishing factor of the great tribulation, i.e., that the Two Witnesses will demonstrate God’s Kingdom Power during the 2ND half of Daniel’s 70th Seven; NOT during the first half as Ed insists!

Again, I did not say that; I said it was not perfect. You have a funny way of embellishing someone's comments. I was talking to him and encouraging him. Only you have the perfect senario. I don't intend to argue someone else's time line. -- Herb Evans

You objected before that I introduced Mark 13:27 to prove a point! I just simply agreed with you that Mark 13:27 and Matt.24:31 refer to the same event but added that it proves Jesus will send the Angels to complete the “gathering of Elect Saints” after He first “gathers us from the extremities of earth to the extremities of heaven”!! You fail again to disprove the truth, by an aside to “divide and conquer”, when I only responded to remarks you introduced by your claim of “near-perfection” in Ed’s chart!!!

Oh now that is a convenient pat answer. One is to gather and the other is to complete the gathering. Real fine Bibe exposition. -- Herb Evans


Mel Miller

 

[Mel Miller]

Chart of Revelation

You should be concerned more with when peace comes to the earth through the antichrist in the seals after there is no peace. He breaks that covenant of peace in the middle of the 70th week. The ignorance is yours. -- Herb Evans
______________________________________________________________
Herb,
“I agree with you that Seal #2 overlays Matthew 24’s sign (that Jesus gave so “we will know the End is Near” as of the Abomination STANDING IN THE TEMPLE; Matt.24:15,33! That event, I repeat, is only for the start of Dan’s 1290-Day Endtime!! The Endtime is limited by him to the FINAL 1290 days because his special concern was about events of the 3½ years which he also called the “END of TIME”; so the Seals are NOT about the first 3½ years!!! Dan.12:4,7.

The Book of Revelation allows only that Seal #1 pre-dates the Endtime! In the above quote you attempt to convince me the Chart of Revelation should include PEACE that Antichrist brings to the world AFTER He desecrates the Temple at MIDWEEK when he takes peace from earth!! You continue the attempt in the following!!!

“No”, you wrote, “I mean the seals overlay MOST of Matthew 24; the seals are a general description of Daniel's 70th week. The mid point of Matthew 24 is when the abomination of desolation comes on the scene. Man, this pontucation stuff is fun”. -- Herb Evans

I believe Matt.24:4-14 deals with persecution of Christians prior to AD 70 and the entire Church age since then! Again, I agree the midpoint of Matt.24 is verse 15!! That’s when the Endtime begins and continues for 1290 (less 30 days) according to Dan.12:11; Matt.24:22; Rev.11:3 which complete the time between Rev.12:5 and Rev.12:6...with 3 1/2 times left at the START of the Midweek Abomination!!!

You must think “pontification is fun” by squeezing twice 1260 days in the chart of Revelation after setting the Abomination in the Temple at Seal #2! Seal #2 cannot include a PEACE that he does not bring to the world at ANY time!! Antichrist will ratify the Covenant that will be forged by Babylon the Great prior to the Endtime!!!

The 7-Year Covenant of Dan.9:27 will be a slick opportunity, a Trojan-Horse type of deception, that produces a short respite in wars to destroy Israel! Before that occurs, Babylon the Great will commit acts of “fornication” by which all “nations and tongues and rulers” realize a peace that results in Israel removing the walls to protect her cities!! Ezek.38-39. This fulfills Dan.2:40-43 before anyone can be certain of the identity of Antichrist!!!

The Question to settle is not: “How much of Daniel's 70th week is covered in the seals, which can be disputed”. The question to settle is: “Why do Daniel and Jesus (and Revelation) restrict the ENDTIME to the second half and NOT the first half”?

These two ideas lead to contradicting each other if, as you contend, Antichrist establishes peace after he agrees to the Covenant! No shred of evidence exists that he will rule the world with power to create the Covenant!! He will be just “one of many” who agree to the “mix among the seed of men” created by Mystery Babylon before her destruction by Ten Kings at Midweek!!!

[Watch now as the Pope begins to effect the creation of Babylon the Great as part of fulfilling Seal #One PRIOR TO THE ENDTIME! There can be no "taking away of peace" until it's there to "take away"!! The attempt to "mix the iron and clay in the seed of men" is now in full force!!! Dan.2:40-43].

I continue to affirm:
Jesus will send the Angels ("after the tribulation") to finish “gathering Elect Saints” after He first “gathers us from the extremities of earth to the extremities of heaven”!! You fail again to disprove the truth, by an aside to “divide and conquer”, when I only responded to remarks you introduced by your claim that Ed’s chart was good, but, of course, "not perfect"...for it is he who claims Jesus will "gather these Elect BEFORE the tribulation"!!!

Your Reply:
"Oh now that is a convenient pat answer. One to gather and the other to complete the gathering. Fine Bible exposition. -- Herb

I wonder about an attitude that implies a reference to Jesus' words is a "pat exposition"! You may deny that any attitude exists!! But it still leaves me wondering if you doubt whether Jesus will use the angels, "after the tribulation", to finish what only the Son of God can initiate!!! Mark 13:27; Matt.24:31. [You agree with Ed for the most part...yet must disagree Matt.24:31 describes a "pre-trib rapture".]

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: //[You agree with Ed for the most part...yet must disagree Matt.24:31 describes a "pre-trib rapture".]//

I thought i told you up front, most people who are
pretribualtion pre-mills consider that Matt 24:31 is
for the Jews and pertains to the post-tribulation
rapture/resurrection (remember, most people who
believe in a pretribulation rapture/resurrection believe
also in a second post-tribulation rapture/resurrection).

I am alone, as far as I can tell, in believing the
reading of Matthew 24:4-44 in light of the questions
the disciples asked Jesus in Matthew 24:3 dictates
that Matthew 24:31 be read as the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection.

 

[Herb Evans]

You should be concerned more with when peace comes to the earth through the antichrist in the seals after there is no peace. He breaks that covenant of peace in the middle of the 70th week. The ignorance is yours. -- Herb Evans
______________________________________________________________
Herb,
“I agree with you that Seal #2 overlays Matthew 24’s sign (that Jesus gave so “we will know the End is Near” as of the Abomination STANDING IN THE TEMPLE; Matt.24:15,33! That event, I repeat, is only for the start of Dan’s 1290-Day Endtime!! The Endtime is limited by him to the FINAL 1290 days because his special concern was about events of the 3½ years which he also called the “END of TIME”; so the Seals are NOT about the first 3½ years!!! Dan.12:4,7.

The Book of Revelation allows only that Seal #1 pre-dates the Endtime! In the above quote you attempt to convince me the Chart of Revelation should include PEACE that Antichrist brings to the world AFTER He desecrates the Temple at MIDWEEK when he takes peace from earth!! You continue the attempt in the following!!!

“No”, you wrote, “I mean the seals overlay MOST of Matthew 24; the seals are a general description of Daniel's 70th week. The mid point of Matthew 24 is when the abomination of desolation comes on the scene. Man, this pontucation stuff is fun”. -- Herb Evans

I believe Matt.24:4-14 deals with persecution of Christians prior to AD 70 and the entire Church age since then! Again, I agree the midpoint of Matt.24 is verse 15!! That’s when the Endtime begins and continues for 1290 (less 30 days) according to Dan.12:11; Matt.24:22; Rev.11:3 which complete the time between Rev.12:5 and Rev.12:6...with 3 1/2 times left at the START of the Midweek Abomination!!!

You must think “pontification is fun” by squeezing twice 1260 days in the chart of Revelation after setting the Abomination in the Temple at Seal #2! Seal #2 cannot include a PEACE that he does not bring to the world at ANY time!! Antichrist will ratify the Covenant that will be forged by Babylon the Great prior to the Endtime!!!

The 7-Year Covenant of Dan.9:27 will be a slick opportunity, a Trojan-Horse type of deception, that produces a short respite in wars to destroy Israel! Before that occurs, Babylon the Great will commit acts of “fornication” by which all “nations and tongues and rulers” realize a peace that results in Israel removing the walls to protect her cities!! Ezek.38-39. This fulfills Dan.2:40-43 before anyone can be certain of the identity of Antichrist!!!

The Question to settle is not: “How much of Daniel's 70th week is covered in the seals, which can be disputed”. The question to settle is: “Why do Daniel and Jesus (and Revelation) restrict the ENDTIME to the second half and NOT the first half”?

These two ideas lead to contradicting each other if, as you contend, Antichrist establishes peace after he agrees to the Covenant! No shred of evidence exists that he will rule the world with power to create the Covenant!! He will be just “one of many” who agree to the “mix among the seed of men” created by Mystery Babylon before her destruction by Ten Kings at Midweek!!!

[Watch now as the Pope begins to effect the creation of Babylon the Great as part of fulfilling Seal #One PRIOR TO THE ENDTIME! There can be no "taking away of peace" until it's there to "take away"!! The attempt to "mix the iron and clay in the seed of men" is now in full force!!! Dan.2:40-43].

I continue to affirm:
Jesus will send the Angels ("after the tribulation") to finish “gathering Elect Saints” after He first “gathers us from the extremities of earth to the extremities of heaven”!! You fail again to disprove the truth, by an aside to “divide and conquer”, when I only responded to remarks you introduced by your claim that Ed’s chart was good, but, of course, "not perfect"...for it is he who claims Jesus will "gather these Elect BEFORE the tribulation"!!!

Your Reply:
"Oh now that is a convenient pat answer. One to gather and the other to complete the gathering. Fine Bible exposition. -- Herb

I wonder about an attitude that implies a reference to Jesus' words is a "pat exposition"! You may deny that any attitude exists!! But it still leaves me wondering if you doubt whether Jesus will use the angels, "after the tribulation", to finish what only the Son of God can initiate!!! Mark 13:27; Matt.24:31. [You agree with Ed for the most part...yet must disagree Matt.24:31 describes a "pre-trib rapture".]

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

Matt. 24:31 is not a pre-trib rapture and neither is Mark 13:27. -- Herb Evans

 

[Mel Miller]

Chart of Revelation

HERB,

How is it possible??? You chose the wrong post to reply with this:

"Matt. 24:31 is not a pre-trib rapture and neither is Mark 13:27. -- Herb Evans.


You should have directed these words to Ed Edwards, not to me!
I await your response to Jesus describing a post-trib rapture!!
Your pontification must be losing steam!!!

Mel

 

[Herb Evans]

HERB,

How is it possible??? You chose the wrong post to reply with this:

"Matt. 24:31 is not a pre-trib rapture and neither is Mark 13:27. -- Herb Evans.


You should have directed these words to Ed Edwards, not to me!
I await your response to Jesus describing a post-trib rapture!!
Your pontification must be losing steam!!!

Mel

Mel Miller: //[You agree with Ed for the most part...yet must disagree Matt.24:31 describes a "pre-trib rapture".]//

I directed thes words at the fellow that was making a fuss over it. Ed and I are not miles apart on his time frame as you and I are. Why fuss with him when my fuss is with you. -- Herb Evans

 

[Mel Miller]

Chart of Revelation

Herb,

The following is from Post #137 with no direct response from you:
You wrote:

You should be concerned more with when peace comes to the earth through the antichrist in the seals after there is no peace. He breaks that covenant of peace in the middle of the 70th week. The ignorance is yours. -- Herb Evans
______________________________________________ ____________
Herb,
“I agree with you that Seal #2 overlays Matthew 24’s sign (that Jesus gave so “we will know the End is Near” as of the Abomination STANDING IN THE TEMPLE; Matt.24:15,33! That event, I repeat, is only for the start of Dan’s 1290-Day Endtime!! The Endtime is limited by him to the FINAL 1290 days because his special concern was about events of the 3½ years which he also called the “END of TIME”; so the Seals are NOT about the first 3½ years!!! Dan.12:4,7.

The Book of Revelation allows only that Seal #1 pre-dates the Endtime! In the above quote you attempt to convince me the Chart of Revelation should include PEACE that Antichrist brings to the world AFTER He desecrates the Temple at MIDWEEK when he takes peace from earth!! You continue that attempt in the following!!!

“No”, you wrote, “I mean the seals overlay MOST of Matthew 24; the seals are a general description of Daniel's 70th week. The mid point of Matthew 24 is when the abomination of desolation comes on the scene. Man, this pontucation stuff is fun”. -- Herb Evans


General Description ONLY of the 2nd Half of that Week!

I believe Matt.24:4-14 deals with persecution of Christians prior to AD 70 and the entire Church age since then! A "general description".


But the midpoint of the 70th Seven is Matt.24:15 at the start of the great tribulation!! It's the first specific sign of the Endtime that continues for 1290 (less 30 days) according to Dan.12:11; Matt.24:22; Rev.11:3. After Rev.12:5, the Endtime begins with the 1260 days of Rev.12:6...with 3 1/2 times left after the START of the Midweek Abomination!!!

You must think “pontification is fun” by squeezing two sets of 1260 days in the Chart of Revelation. There's only one period of 3 1/2 times for the Abomination in the Temple! Seal #2 cannot include a PEACE that you think he brings to the world after desecrating the
Temple! Antichrist will sign and then break the Covenant forged by Babylon the Great prior to the Endtime!!!

The 7-Year Covenant of Dan.9:27 will be a slick opportunity, a Trojan-Horse type of deception that produces a short respite in wars to destroy Israel! Before that occurs, Babylon the Great will commit acts of “fornication” by which all “nations and tongues and rulers” realize a peace that results in Israel removing the walls to protect her cities!! Ezek.38-39. Babylon the Great fulfills Dan.2:40-43 before anyone can be certain of the identity of Antichrist!!!

The Question to settle is not: “How much of Daniel's 70th week is covered in the seals, which can be disputed”. The question to settle is: “Why do Daniel and Jesus (and Revelation) restrict the ENDTIME to the second half and NOT the first half”?

Antichrist does not establish peace after he breaks the Covenant! No shred of evidence exists that he will rule the world with power to create the Covenant!! He will be just “one of many” who agree to the “mix among the seed of men” created by Mystery Babylon before her destruction by Ten Kings at Midweek!!!

[Watch now as the Pope begins to effect the creation of Babylon the Great as part of fulfilling Seal #One PRIOR TO THE ENDTIME! There can be no "taking away of peace" until it's there to "take away"!! The attempt to "mix the iron and clay in the seed of men" is now in full force!!! Dan.2:40-43].

Mel Miller www.lastday.net