Pictoral Chart of Revelation

[Mel Miller]

Chart of Revelation

Sorry, but you neglected to read Mark 13:26, which is the Lord's coming in powere and glory-not the rapture. It is THEN that he gathers the elect. Mark 13 matches Mathew 24 in the same time frame. -- Herb Evans

______________________________________________________________

Herb,

I have often observed how a person will evade the issue by assuming I
"neglected to read" the entire context of a passage.

I try to "QUOTE" Scripture exactly as Jesus spoke those words; NOT as
I wish Him to say. Are you suggesting we can change His "gathering
of the Elect from the earth" to His gathering them from heaven? You
are doing that because you believe He is coming twice...once to raise
the Pre-Tribulation saints who "die in the Lord" and years later to raise
the Tribulation saints who "die in the Lord". I Thess.3:13-14; Rev.14:13.

We both believe Jesus must come FOR all the saints before He comes WITH us! But I have not suggested you failed to read John 6:38-40 like you stated I failed to read Mark 13:26! Are you assuming Jesus does NOT "raise up ALL the surviving Trib-Saints FROM earth at His second coming in great power and glory"!! You did that by suggesting I failed to read the
very verse that supports a Post-Trib Rapture!!!

Instead, why not offer some evidence, from the words of Jesus Himself, that there are TWO last days...one just to raise up Pre-Trib saints from
earth TO heaven years before He comes WITH them? Until you do that, it seems presumptuous for you to
deny that Jesus describes the Rapture in verse 27! Are you suggesting I misquoted His promise to "gather every believer from earth TO heaven"?
You admit Mark 13:27 occurs at the same time as Matt.24:31! "He sends the angels to gather all the saints (including tribulation martyrs who die
in the Lord) FROM all extremities of the heavenS"!!!

Jesus "gathers the saints TO heaven" at the second coming at the same time the angels "gather them FROM the heavenS"! At least the Greek text states: "He gathers the Elect TO heaven (episunaxei; 3rd person singular)
and "He sends (apostelei; 3rd person singular) the angels so THEY can complete the gathering FROM the heavenS"!! (episunaxousin; 3rd person PLURAL)!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :jesus: places the Rapture on the last day!

 

[Herb Evans]

Sorry, but you neglected to read Mark 13:26, which is the Lord's coming in power and glory-not the rapture. It is THEN that he gathers the elect. Mark 13 matches Mathew 24 in the same time frame. -- Herb Evans

[Mel Miller]Herb, I have often observed how a person will evade the issue by assuming I "neglected to read" the entire context of a passage.

I also get annoyed also at folks assuming that I have not read such and such. Still, I have avoided nothing that pertains to the issue of the thread. -- Herb Evans

I try to "QUOTE" Scripture exactly as Jesus spoke those words; NOT as
I wish Him to say. Are you suggesting we can change His "gathering
of the Elect from the earth" to His gathering them from heaven? You
are doing that because you believe He is coming twice...once to raise
the Pre-Tribulation saints who "die in the Lord" and years later to raise
the Tribulation saints who "die in the Lord". I Thess.3:13-14; Rev.14:13.

What you say about it being a gathering is true, but it was and is the timeframe that I am concerned about per Anderson's initial post. This gathering occurs at the second coming in power and glory and is not a gathering of pre-tribulation saints but a gathering of post tribulation saints. You are arguing in a circle by calling them pre-tribulation saints, since I am arguing against that. -- Herb Evans

We both believe Jesus must come FOR all the saints before He comes WITH us! But I have not suggested you failed to read John 6:38-40 like you stated I failed to read Mark 13:26! Are you assuming Jesus does NOT "raise up ALL the surviving Trib-Saints FROM earth at His second coming in great power and glory"!! You did that by suggesting I failed to read the very verse that supports a Post-Trib Rapture!!!

I am assuming nothing. I call it a post-trib gathering. You are arguing with yourself here. By quoting resurrection scripture from John 6, you have established nothing in Mark 13 in regard to time frame. My contention is that the gathering in Mark 13 is the same timeframe as in Matthew 24 and that it occurs after the coming in power and glory. My original intention was to prove that Mark 13:27 was not the pre-trib rapture. If you want to call it a post-trib rapture--FINE! My concern was the time frame and not the details of the gathering. -- Hreb Evans

Instead, why not offer some evidence, from the words of Jesus Himself, that there are TWO last days...one just to raise up Pre-Trib saints from earth TO heaven years before He comes WITH them? Until you do that, it seems presumptuous for you to deny that Jesus describes the Rapture in verse 27! Are you suggesting I misquoted His promise to "gather every believer from earth TO heaven"?
You admit Mark 13:27 occurs at the same time as Matt.24:31! "He sends the angels to gather all the saints (including tribulation martyrs who die
in the Lord) FROM all extremities of the heavens"!!!

Again, my intention was to establish the time frame not the details. If you want it to be a post-trib rapture, I have no problem with that. Obviously, the rapture of the 2 witnesses as well as some other raptures in the trib is on the table. For you to blindside me and cause me to think that you were siding with Anderson on Mark 13:27 being a pre-trib rapture to introduce your hobby horse into that discussion is petty. -- Herb Evans

Jesus "gathers the saints TO heaven" at the second coming at the same time the angels "gather them FROM the heavenS"! At least the Greek text states: "He gathers the Elect TO heaven (episunaxei; 3rd person singular)
and "He sends (apostelei; 3rd person singular) the angels so THEY can complete the gathering FROM the heavenS"!! (episunaxousin; 3rd person PLURAL)!!!

Have that your way as long as this is post trib stuff. My argument was with Anderson's take not this. You challenged me without an explanation that you were changing the subject. -- Herb Evans

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :jesus: places the Rapture on the last day!

What is the last day? How many "last days" are there? -- Herb Evans

 

[robycop3]

You do well, Dr. Evans, & others, to disagree with almost everything Anderson says. IMO, this cat's a wing nut on the order of E.G. White or Charles Taze Russell, trying to found his own cult.

The view of "the end" I've heard all my life is

A. Jesus removes all Christians from the earth, coming invisibly to do it. (Being all-powerful, He need not be physically present nor visible to accomplish His will.)

B. The tribulation, the reign of the Antichrist, to be fully manifested after the rapture, since there will be no Christians to oppose him.(However, there will be many who come to Christ if they've not taken the mark of the beast, and realize what has happened.)

C. The battle of Armageddon, Christ's visible, glorious return as King of kings in which He gathers the Trib saints to Himself, ends all man-made governments, & casts the AC & his false prophet into hell (gehenna) by the power of His spoken word.

 

[Ed Edwards]

:yawn:

"Hreb Evans"

This must be Herb's dylexic twin?

 

[Mel Miller]

Chart of Revelation

:yawn:

"Hreb Evans"

This must be Herb's dylexic twin?

________________________________________________________

Ed,

Did you mean "dialectic"? That may mean:

1. A contradiction and its possible solution.

OR

2. The testing of truth by discussion!

In the case of Jesus, we must dismiss #1 as He was never guilty
of theoretical contradictions...not even of truth hidden in parables.

But any one who mis-uses the contexts of His second coming to
theorize about a Pre-Trib Rapture IS guilty! The prime argument
I've heard, for 75 years, to support a theoretical Pre-Trib Rapture
comes straight from Christ's revelation about the Rapture at His
second coming ... of which Herb allows Jesus may have taught!!
The so-called "any-moment, pre-trib rapture" was extracted right
out of Matt.24:36 to establish, theoretically, that Jesus may take
us to heaven at any moment and, therefore, "NO SPECIFIC SIGN"
of His coming must precede a secret-invisible rapture to heaven!!!

Does Herb's theory fit the mold of #1 by suggesting (not revealing)
that Jesus had multiple "last days" in mind for the Rapture?! That
may indeed qualify as a "dylexic" condition characteristic of #1!! I
would not question Herb's sincerity; but only the "details" of his
hypothesis that Jesus could have had two "last days" in mind!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

[npetreley]

I agree that Jesus also "sends the angels to gather the Elect, at the sound of a great trumpet, from all extremities of the heavenS"! Matt.24:31. But it would be impossible for angels to raise us from the dead or to know whom to gather from the earth!! Paul gives the destination of those "gathered unto Jesus"... a "Synagogue" (noun) in the Sky!!! 2 Thess.2:1.

Wow, you're reading WAY too much into an omitted detail.

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It doesn't say ANYTHING about whether or not the dead are raised. It doesn't say they are not, and it doesn't say they are. And if they are, it doesn't say the Angels would have to do it just because they are GATHERING the elect.

Maybe you're not the first to read too much into this short quote. Paul had to clarify it to the Thessalonians.

15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

 

[saturneptune]

I just created this Pictoral chart of the Book of Revelation. Please take a look at it:

http://www.faithfulwordbaptist.org/pictoralchart.htm

I also made this list of scriptures about the rapture:

http://www.faithfulwordbaptist.org/pre-tribulation.htm

The truth is so simple.

Sincerely,
Pastor Steven L Anderson
Faithful Word Baptist Church
www.faithfulwordbaptist.org

If people would stop responding to Anderson's posts, he would go away.

 

[Herb Evans]

:yawn:

"Hreb Evans"

This must be Herb's dylexic twin?

Well, Edward Squared, you discovered my pen name. -- Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

________________________________________________________

Ed,

Did you mean "dialectic"? That may mean:

1. A contradiction and its possible solution.

OR

2. The testing of truth by discussion!

In the case of Jesus, we must dismiss #1 as He was never guilty
of theoretical contradictions...not even of truth hidden in parables.

But any one who mis-uses the contexts of His second coming to
theorize about a Pre-Trib Rapture IS guilty! The prime argument
I've heard, for 75 years, to support a theoretical Pre-Trib Rapture
comes straight from Christ's revelation about the Rapture at His
second coming ... of which Herb allows Jesus may have taught!!
The so-called "any-moment, pre-trib rapture" was extracted right
out of Matt.24:36 to establish, theoretically, that Jesus may take
us to heaven at any moment and, therefore, "NO SPECIFIC SIGN"
of His coming must precede a secret-invisible rapture to heaven!!!

Does Herb's theory fit the mold of #1 by suggesting (not revealing)
that Jesus had multiple "last days" in mind for the Rapture?! That
may indeed qualify as a "dylexic" condition characteristic of #1!! I
would not question Herb's sincerity; but only the "details" of his
hypothesis that Jesus could have had two "last days" in mind!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

Wow! Man, are you off base, both with what herb Evans is saying and with the pretrib rapture originating in the Gospels. I note that you did not answer my question about how many last days that there are; you merely characterize my question with a slur. -- Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

If people would stop responding to Anderson's posts, he would go away.

That might be so, if one is not interested in truth or exposing error, something that I thought was the purpose of a forum. Too many folks are ready to silence someone, if they say something that rubs them the wrong way. Could it be that you cannot refute what Anderson is saying. -- Herb Evans

 

[MB]

question please

Hi Pastor Stevens;
I read what you had to say and I know I'm a late comer on this subject but, I would like to see just where scripture says that the Rapture or catching away is in the middle of the Tribulation? It seems to me that tribulation does not necessarily mean The 7 year Tribulation. The word "Tribulation" I believe means trials and we all have trials everyday.

I'm not trying to dispute what you've said here, I'm just looking for the evidence that apparently I just don't see. I've read different opinions on this and well it seems everyone has there own ideas. Truthfully I really don't think that man is suppose to know when because Christ said only the Father knows the day and hour.

I believe that it has to be soon if not the world will fall apart on it's own and man will kill himself with out any help from God.

One thing I do know is that it will happen because, God said so.

Maybe my view of things aren't the correct ones on this but in my opinion it seems reasonable that God didn't want us to know in order to keep us on our toes all the time. Instead of knowing exactly when we should straighten up, because He is about to bust through the door.
I'd really like to see a verse that says when? One that really nails it down.
Peace Brother
MB

 

[saturneptune]

That might be so, if one is not interested in truth or exposing error, something that I thought was the purpose of a forum. Too many folks are ready to silence someone, if they say something that rubs them the wrong way. Could it be that you cannot refute what Anderson is saying. -- Herb Evans

Hebrews 11:27

 

[Herb Evans]

Not only him but you. After debating Baptist Pastor Theologean, JArthur, and at times Brother Bob, debating you is quite a simple task, not really worthy of the keyboard.

Then i suggest that you do not answer me or Anderson. Perhaps, you should leave the thread, if you do not want to do anything but act as a spoiler. Yawn! -- Herb Evans

 

[saturneptune]

Hebrews 11:27

 

[Herb Evans]

Hi Pastor Stevens;
I read what you had to say and I know I'm a late comer on this subject but, I would like to see just where scripture says that the Rapture or catching away is in the middle of the Tribulation? It seems to me that tribulation does not necessarily mean The 7 year Tribulation. The word "Tribulation" I believe means trials and we all have trials everyday.
MB

Perhaps, we should discontinue "tribulation terminology" and instead use the 70th week of Daniel, EACH half. -- Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

Amen to the yawn, big mouth, hot air, nothing to say.

Well, why is it so with you, Mr. spoiler. You could change. -- Herb Evans

 

[MB]

Hi Herb;
I hope I'm not getting into something I'll regret here, but don't take what I said as though it's written in stone. It seems every generation has thought at one time or another the Lord's a coming. It seems Paul thought so? Don't you agree that it's not so much His coming we should worry about but being ready for it? I read a book once by a very smart man named John Walvoord. (I hope I spelled it right.) Any way he's a professor at the Dallas theological seminary. He explained about the 70 weeks of Daniel and how the last week would be the tribulation The name of the book was "The Blessed Hope and The Tribulation" If I remember right he believes the Rapture is before the tribulation. Although it seemed to me that he didn't nail it down to a fact either.
Since you mentioned the 70 weeks and all do you believe that you know if the rapture happens before or after or maybe in between. If so Then you must have a definite proof of when. I'd like to read this in scripture if it's self explanatory.
Peace Brother;
MB

 

[Herb Evans]

IMMINENT RAPTURE - NO TRIBULATION for CHURCH SAINTS​

. . . Maranatha . . . --1Cor. 16:22

. . . Occupy till I come . . . --Luke 19:13

. . . The Lord is at hand . . . --Phil. 4:5

. . . Surely I come quickly . . . — Rev. 22:20

For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also WE LOOK for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ [not the tribulation] . . . --Phil. 3:20-21

LOOKING for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ [not the tribulation] . . . --Titus 2:13

Be patient . . . unto the COMING OF THE LORD [not the tribulation] . . . --James 5:7

When HE shall APPEAR, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at HIS COMING [not the tribulation's coming] . . . --1 John 2:28

Unto them that LOOK FOR HIM [not the tribulation] shall HE APPEAR the second time . . . -- Heb. 9:28

So that ye come behind in no gift; WAITING for the COMING OF OUR LORD Jesus Christ [not the tribulation] . . . --1 Cor. 1:7

And to WAIT for his Son [not the tribulation] from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which DELIVER US from the WRATH TO COME. -- 1 Thess. 1:10

And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient WAITING FOR CHRIST [not the tribulation] . . . --2 Thess. 3:5

We have been sent a letter and tract, distributed by a nonsectarian ship (without a flag, during war time), a so called "Christian Missionary Society," P.O. Box .4097, Phoenix, Arizona 85030 (a freelance, bloodsucking, para-church organization), which seeks to promote the theory that present day believers will go through the Tribulation. This cowardly author does not indicate his name but offers $ 100,000, in his news letter, for one scripture to prove the pre tribulation, rapture false doctrine. One can imagine what happens if it takes two verses or three to prove it. Still, the author looks for the Tribulation, but we look for a Saviour.

The tract offers $ 100,000, to anyone, who can prove Christians will be raptured before the soon coming great Tribulation. Still, the author does not produce one verse of scripture that proves the church "will" go through the Tribulation or that the Rapture is "not" imminent; he merely challenges and gainsays the opposition, a familiar tactic with eschatological false teachers.

The First Big Lie​

The author of the letter uses the worn out, fairy tale that the pre-Tribulation rapture of the church, "began in Scotland in 1830, by a 15year-old girl (Margaret MacDonald). Her pastor, Edward Irving, accepted it, then the Plymouth Brethren Church accepted it, then Dr. C.I. Scofield accepted it, and put it the footnotes of his Scofield Bible, and it has scattered all over the world.

The author of the tract says further, "The Early Church did not believe In the 'imminent' coming of Christ, as the writings of the early Church fathers tell us! John Wesley, Charles Wesley, Charles Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, John Knox, Martin Luther, John Calvin, George Whitefield, A.B. Simpson, George Mueller, John Newton, William Tyndale, John Wycliffe, and other great reformation preachers did not believe it."

The truth of the matter is that the certain church reformers wrote:

"I believe that all the signs which are to precede the last days have already appeared. Let us not think that the coming of Christ is far off; let us look up with heads lifted up; let us expect our Redeemer's coming with longing . . . "-- Martin Luther

“Scripture uniformly enjoins us to LOOK with expectation for the advent of Christ." --John Calvin

“The Lord Jesus shall return, and that with expedition. "-- John Knox

“All those excellent and learned men whom . . . God has sent into the world in THESE LATTER days to give the word of warning do gather out of the Scriptures that the last days cannot be far off. Peradventure it may come in my day, old as I am, or in my children's days . . ." -- Latimer

"They (the early church fathers) held not only the premillennial view of Christ's coming, but also regarded that coming as imminent. The Lord had taught His personal return at any moment, and so they looked for Him to come in their day. Not only so. but they also taught His personal return as being immediately . . . We may say, therefore, that the early Church lived in constant expectation of their Lord, and hence was not interested in the possibility of a Tribulation period in the future." --Thiessen

*Note: quotes are from Things to Come, by J. Dwight Pentecost --pp. 203, 204.

In other words, certain early church fathers, looked and waited, for a Saviour, as the scriptures admonish; they did not look or wait for the tribulation, as does our cowardly false teacher.

The Second Big Lie, a Half Truth​

The half Truth of the author of the letter puts Christ's coming for his Church Age "elect," after the Great Tribulation. In his tract, he asks, "Who are Christ's ‘elect’?” He answers, "they are those who have believed in Him, the Christians."

After deceiving his readers, with his private definitions and interpretations, which portray Church Age Christians, as the ONLY saints in God's program, he proceeds to argue, in a circle, that Church Age Christian elect saints will go through the Tribulation. The truth of the matter is that the term "elect" and "saints" apply, to the Old Testament saints AND New Testament elect, as well as the tribulation saints and elect (Job 5:1, Psa. 148:14; Matt. 27:52; Rev. 15:3; Isa. 45:4; Isa. 65:9).

The church will NOT go through the tribulation but Israel will. Those Jewish and Gentile saints/elect, who are converted (Rev. 5:9; 7:9), during this tribulation, will of course, be there. The elect of Matthew 24:21-22, who our author likes to crow about, are Jewish elect/saints—not Church Age elect/saints . . . These Jews are told to flee Judea (24:16), hopefully not on the Jewish "sabbath" (24:20). JEWS! Jewish elect!

The Third Big Lie​

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. --Rev. 5:9

The author tells us that the Rapture occurs between the sixth seal (Rev. 6:12) and the seventh seal (Rev. 7:14; 8:1 ), after the moon and sun goings on. But what about those who came up hither, in Rev. 4: 1, who are found singing in heaven, before the seals are even opened? WHERE DID THEY COME FROM?

Hallelujah! Thank you Jesus! Praise de Lawd! Amen! Do I have a witness?

--by Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

Removed duplicate

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller:
//The prime argument
I've heard, for 75 years, to support a theoretical Pre-Trib Rapture
comes straight from Christ's revelation about the Rapture at His
second coming ... of which Herb allows Jesus may have taught!!
The so-called "any-moment, pre-trib rapture" was extracted right
out of Matt.24:36 to establish, theoretically, that Jesus may take
us to heaven at any moment and, therefore, "NO SPECIFIC SIGN"
of His coming must precede a secret-invisible rapture to heaven!!!//


Interesting, I thought I was the first one to use Matt 24:31
in that manner. I've sure not seen it taught by anyone
in the 55 years that i've been a Christian.