pictures of a brain with mental illness for fred

[Earth Wind and Fire]

We go to Schiedelmans (They are NOT Italian) for bagels and rye. No lox, though. Salted cod out the wazoo but no lox. Now I'm hungry for a good pastrami. Think you could get a good pastrami on rye? Ain't happening. You can get a good corned beef but everyone ruins it with Russian dressing and calls it a Reuben.

Back to the pastrami. It made me think of a pastrami I had in Baltimore back in the day. I can almost smell and taste it. Is that in my brain or my mind? I'm getting anxious thinking I could run to the market and get a pound. Now I'm thinking if I do that I will be disappointed because pre-packaged grocery store pastrami is nothing like Jewish deli patrami.

Where is my anxiety? Does it exist? Where does disappointment come from? (or should that be From where does disappointment come?) I get one emotional response to deli pastrami and quite another from pre-packaged? What's that all about. Am I out of my mind or losing my brain?

Here....try this!

http://www.google.com/search?q=Carn...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

 

[padredurand]

Here....try this!

http://www.google.com/search?q=Carn...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Now you gone and done it. I'm ordering tonight. Tuesday is pastrami night at padre's house!

 

[fortytworc]

Mind you, Let your YES be YEA & Your NO.....well you know the rest of the story without all the bible proof testing :laugh:

I'm not sure how this fits in, but I think it does. In 2001 I was diagnosed as having Parkinson's disease. I had probably had it for maybe three years before the official diagnoses was made. I was44 years young. PD does not show up in any blood test. MRIs and x-rays don't show it. I was poked, stuck, interviewed, shocked, told to do this and that with my arms, fingers, eyes. "Walk down this hall from here to there, turn around and come back."
I was eventually sent to a doctor who had founded the 'Parkinson's Disease and Movement Disorder Clinic' at Ohio State University. She had me move, walk, tap, stomp, and a few other things. After about 20 minutes of this she told my wife and I that I had PD. I made a feeble attempt at talking her out of it. I could tell she knew what I was doing. She stopped me, looked me straight in the eyes and said, "Mr. Collins, There is no doubt in my mind that you have PD. Fast forward to the summer of 2009. After taking certain medications for PD 8 years
The side effects of a couple of them caused me to experience a break from reality. I experienced a very strong psychotic break from reality. All five of my senses were involved. This made all of my experiences very real to me. I was convinced there were people (wasn't sure they weren't aliens) were out to terrorize me, frame me for crimes that would send me to prison, make me harm and even kill my wife and our dog, and eventually kidnap, torture and kill me. I "saw" a man painting a nearby house wave at me right before him "phased out, and then back in." He then proceeded up his ladder to continue painting. While standing at a certain place in our apartment I "heard" a click in one ear as a voice said "I've got a clear shot. I can take him out with one shot to the back of his head." I dropped both arms to my hips and said, "Please do it!" I was tired of being in a state of constant terror. After admitting myself to the hospital and speaking with several doctors practicing various specialties it was decided that I needed some of my medications changed, replaced, and stopped. A little over two days later I went home. It took a few weeks, but I began being able to thing logically again. The hallucinations stopped. The paranoia stopped. Soon I was back to normal. Make of it what you will, but my PD and its treatment were and are physical. The adjustment in my meds to treat my psychosis is physical. My PD and the treatment all have to do with chemicals, neurotransmitters, and hormones being out of whack. The psychotic break was a mental break (a temporary mental illness) with roots in an organic, physical illness. Not sin. Not the devious work of an evil psychiatric, medical pharmaceutical system. Not the devil or demons. I offer this to anyone that it may help. Fred’s will always abound. (Until Jesus physically returns. But His Love, Grace, and Mercy will always be with us.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Now you gone and done it. I'm ordering tonight. Tuesday is pastrami night at padre's house!

Chase it down with a couple a Zocor & enjoy LOL

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'm not sure how this fits in, but I think it does. In 2001 I was diagnosed as having Parkinson's disease. I had probably had it for maybe three years before the official diagnoses was made. I was44 years young. PD does not show up in any blood test. MRIs and x-rays don't show it. I was poked, stuck, interviewed, shocked, told to do this and that with my arms, fingers, eyes. "Walk down this hall from here to there, turn around and come back."
I was eventually sent to a doctor who had founded the 'Parkinson's Disease and Movement Disorder Clinic' at Ohio State University. She had me move, walk, tap, stomp, and a few other things. After about 20 minutes of this she told my wife and I that I had PD. I made a feeble attempt at talking her out of it. I could tell she knew what I was doing. She stopped me, looked me straight in the eyes and said, "Mr. Collins, There is no doubt in my mind that you have PD. Fast forward to the summer of 2009. After taking certain medications for PD 8 years
The side effects of a couple of them caused me to experience a break from reality. I experienced a very strong psychotic break from reality. All five of my senses were involved. This made all of my experiences very real to me. I was convinced there were people (wasn't sure they weren't aliens) were out to terrorize me, frame me for crimes that would send me to prison, make me harm and even kill my wife and our dog, and eventually kidnap, torture and kill me. I "saw" a man painting a nearby house wave at me right before him "phased out, and then back in." He then proceeded up his ladder to continue painting. While standing at a certain place in our apartment I "heard" a click in one ear as a voice said "I've got a clear shot. I can take him out with one shot to the back of his head." I dropped both arms to my hips and said, "Please do it!" I was tired of being in a state of constant terror. After admitting myself to the hospital and speaking with several doctors practicing various specialties it was decided that I needed some of my medications changed, replaced, and stopped. A little over two days later I went home. It took a few weeks, but I began being able to thing logically again. The hallucinations stopped. The paranoia stopped. Soon I was back to normal. Make of it what you will, but my PD and its treatment were and are physical. The adjustment in my meds to treat my psychosis is physical. My PD and the treatment all have to do with chemicals, neurotransmitters, and hormones being out of whack. The psychotic break was a mental break (a temporary mental illness) with roots in an organic, physical illness. Not sin. Not the devious work of an evil psychiatric, medical pharmaceutical system. Not the devil or demons. I offer this to anyone that it may help. Fred’s will always abound. (Until Jesus physically returns. But His Love, Grace, and Mercy will always be with us.

Thanks for the testimony. Right now Im dealing with my beautiful 20 something niece who has been traumatically abused by her father & she is a mess & has developed OCD....I believe to be a result of long term abuse....she needs both psychiatric treatment which includes both counseling & medical treatment. She is Catholic & the nuns told her that whenever she was anxious to cry out to Jesus & he will save you. Well a year ago she was huddled in a corner, in the fetal position, no shower, wanting to die, not having eaten in days saying Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. I also have a nephew who I believe was sexually abused who stays in one bedroom, unable to leave, depressed, unable to work, unable to drive a car, unable to interact with people, unable to go to school. My brother, a trained pastor used to think like Fred until his child began his long slide into suicidal depression. Now my brother takes the boy to both a psychiatrist for Meds & to a weekly psychologist for therapy .......The family are all independent Fundamentalists Baptists who are all very Christian people but that hasnt stopped the depression & I know they have tried to correct it by prayer etc.

Truthfully if people like Fred were correct, then mental illness would be fairly easy to reverse & I sincerely wish he was in all honesty, but unfortunately he is not....drugs, trauma, abuse, chemical imbalances, tumors, childhood diseases, genetics, alcoholism, age etc all have deleterious effects on both mind & body. Lets face those facts & move on.....and pray sincerely for those affected.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

I am correct. And one cannot reverse mental illness as mental illness does not exist.

Drugs, trauma, etc., do affect the mind. But they do not make the mind sick. The mind cannot get sick, being immaterial.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I am correct. And one cannot reverse mental illness as mental illness does not exist.

Drugs, trauma, etc., do affect the mind. But they do not make the mind sick. The mind cannot get sick, being immaterial.

Well Fred, stand on your soap box all night long if you wish....hold your breath to if you find that appealing, however you are wrong minded (ha ha ha) & nobody cares about your opinion......so be an island unto your self & have a pleasant evening. I'm done with you.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

And EW&F, you stand on your soap box, hold your breath if you find that appealing. You are wrong.

And I could care less how many think I am wrong. What they think about me doesn't hurt me one bit. Nor does it change the fact that the mind cannot get sick.

 

[seekingthetruth]

My wife read this thread tonight, and she made a very good comment about it.

She said that usually when a person has a very dogmatic denial of an issue it is because that issue is quite personal to them.

Hmmmm.

Fred, could it be that you have been diagnosed with a mental illness, and your way of dealing with it is denial?

John

 

[Arbo]

Well Fred, stand on your soap box all night long if you wish....hold your breath to if you find that appealing, however you are wrong minded (ha ha ha) & nobody cares about your opinion......so be an island unto your self & have a pleasant evening. I'm done with you.

I think I'll do the same.

Stead- Good luck holding on to your theory. May you never need to test it.

 

[Arbo]

My wife read this thread tonight, and she made a very good comment about it.

She said that usually when a person has a very dogmatic denial of an issue it is because that issue is quite personal to them.

Hmmmm.

Fred, could it be that you have been diagnosed with a mental illness, and your way of dealing with it is denial?

John

I've wondered the same.

Arbo signing off.

 

[Fred's Wife]

The idea of mental illness as a biological entity is easy to refute. In 1988, Seymour S. Kety, M.D., Professor Emeritus of Neuroscience in Psychiatry, and Steven Matthysse, Ph.D., Associate Professor of Psychobiology, both of Harvard Medical School, said "an impartial reading of the recent literature does not provide the hoped-for clarification of the catecholamine hypotheses, nor does compelling evidence emerge for other biological differences that may characterize the brains of patients with mental disease"

In 1992 a panel of experts assembled by the U.S. Congress Office of Technology Assessment concluded: "Many questions remain about the biology of mental disorders. In fact, research has yet to identify specific biological causes for any of these disorders. ... Mental disorders are classified on the basis of symptoms because there are as yet no biological markers or laboratory tests for them."

Columbia University psychiatry professor Jack M. Gorman, M.D., said "We really do not know what causes any psychiatric illness."

Another Columbia University psychiatry professor, Jerrold S. Maxmen, M.D., said "It is generally unrecognized that psychiatrists are the only medical specialists who treat disorders that, by definition, have no definitively known causes or cures. ... A diagnosis should indicate the cause of a mental disorder, but as discussed later, since the etiologies of most mental disorders are unknown, current diagnostic systems can't reflect them."

Psychiatrist Peter Breggin, M.D., said "there is no evidence that any of the common psychological or psychiatric disorders have a genetic or biological component."

Truth About Mental Illness and Disease

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Since I have never been to a psychiatrist and there has been no psychiatrist to visit me, I would have to answer "No, I have never been diagnosed with a mental illness"

Unless, of course it is by EW&F and others on this forum.

Of course, they would be wrong if they had.

 

[agedman]

Since I have never been to a psychiatrist and there has been no psychiatrist to visit me, I would have to answer "No, I have never been diagnosed with a mental illness"

Unless, of course it is by EW&F and others on this forum.

Of course, they would be wrong if they had.

Are you sure?

If the mind is as you state it to be, how would you know?

How would you prove you were not sick in the mind as the man from Gadara and have to have the demonic forces exercised to be able to sit "in (your) right mind" as he did?

After all according to you, the mind can't be seen. In fact, there may not be a mind at all, for it is unseen - maybe it is all a figment of the imagination.

 

[fortytworc]

And EW&F, you stand on your soap box, hold your breath if you find that appealing. You are wrong.

And I could care less how many think I am wrong. What they think about me doesn't hurt me one bit. Nor does it change the fact that the mind cannot get sick.

For anyone interested you may want to read this article and go to the web site.
That "Mind" is immaterial is still a debatable philosophy. I think anyone who comes to a conclusion after searching out the arguments on all of the philosophical angles should be prepared to logically prove and argue there belief. Mr. Steadfast Fred; It appears to me that there are very intelligent people who would argue whatever they have decided on this philosophy. The fact is that they disagree among themselves on this. Having just this small bit of knowledge tells me that though you have come to your own conclusions on the nature of mind it really is much more than saying, "Show me a picture...." If it were that easy the debate would have been over soon after photography was introduced to us. Even if everyone on this thread has made their 'Mind' up that would not be the end of it. I would just ask that you would consider a milder approach if this is brought up elsewhere. On just about any topic when someone comes in like gangbusters with accusations, oversimplifications, and dogmatic answers to complicated issues there is an overall feeling of condemnation, maybe failure, and usually a strong self defensive stance. You end up loosing the opportunity you may have had to communicate your beliefs to others and you end up preaching to the choir.

http://www.philosophyofmind.info/
Philosophy of Mind

The philosophy of mind is the branch of metaphysics that studies the nature of mind, what it is that makes us conscious beings. The central question in the field is whether the mind is material or immaterial: are we merely physical beings, or something more? Do we have immaterial souls that animate our bodies, or are we merely electrical activity in an organic brain?
Substance Dualism

Substance dualism is well-established among non-philosophers. It is the view that there are two fundamentally different types of substance--physical and non-physical--and that human beings are made up of two components: physical bodies and non-physical minds. This theory has many attractions, but is now seen by many, rightly or wrongly, as old-fashioned and naive.
Substance Monism

In opposition to substance dualism is substance monism, the view that there is no distinction between the mental and physical realms, that everything is fundamentally the same. Although it is possible to argue that everything is mental, as idealism does, it is much more common to hold that everything is physical, to endorse “physicalism” or “materialism”.
Materialism

The theory of choice for many scientists is materialism, which denies the existence of strange, non-physical substances and insists that we are entirely physical beings. Materialist theories attempt to reduce mentality to physicality, analyzing mental states in terms of physical states. There are various such analyses available: behaviorism analyses mental states in terms of behavior; functionalism analyses mental states in terms of their functional role; mind-brain identity theory identifies mental states with brain states.
Property Dualism

There is, however, a third option: property dualism. Property dualism is substance monist; it agrees with materialism that there are only physical substances. However, it concedes to the dualist that these substances have both physical and non-physical properties, and that the non-physical properties cannot be fully explained in purely physical terms. Although this position is intended to capture the best elements of both positions, it arguably ends up with the liabilities of both as well.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

If mind is not purely physical, it seems necessary that it be, to at least some extent, a non-physical substance. The philosophical term "substance" refers to

an entity like an acorn, a leaf, a dog, or an angel. Substances . . . are particular. A particular acorn cannot be in more than one place at the same time. . . . A substance is a continuant, that is it can change by gaining new properties and losing old ones, yet it remains the same thing . . . . Substances are basic, fundamental existents. They are not in or had by other things [as properties are]. . . Substances are unities of parts, properties, and capacities . . . . A substance has causal powers. It can act as a causal agent in the world.

(J. P. Moreland in Christian Perspectives on Being Human, p. 58.)

Nowhere in this definition is there the statement that a substance is necessarily material; and though that is the way we are accustomed to thinking of substances, to set that as part of the definition is to assume that physicalism must be true. This would be begging the question, for one thing, and it would also leave us with an unresolvable dilemma regarding mind, if it is indeed true that physicalism is incompatible with rationality and free will. So the more open definition seems more suitable.

Mind, I propose (following a long train of much smarter thinkers than myself) is an immaterial substance coexisting with the material body. We are forced to that conclusion by the inadequacy of the physical alternative. Mind interacts with body primarily through the brain, and according to the brain's capacity to express mind. Native (genetic) brain capacity, nutritional condition, education, sleep, health, etc. all physically affect the capacity of the brain to operate, and mind is subject in its physical limitations to the capacity and functioning of the brain.

Excerpt from http://www.thinkingchristian.net/C278308471/E20060313140239/index.html

The whole is a rather lengthy article, but reveals that the mind is, as I have said all along... immaterial.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

How Authority Is Taken From Pastors and Church Leaders - http://e-booktime.com/Merchant2/excerpts/dahexcerpt.htm

E. Fuller Torrey says:



“The term itself is nonsensical, a semantic mistake. The two words cannot go together ... you can no more have a mental ‘disease’ than you can have a purple idea or a wise space.”

The word mental means “mind” and the mind is not the same as the brain. Also, the mind is really more than just a function or activity of the brain. Brain researcher and author Barbara Brown insists that the mind goes beyond the brain. She says:

“The scientific consensus that mind is only mechanical brain is dead wrong ... the research data of the sciences themselves point much more strongly toward the existence of a mind-more-than-brain than they do toward the mere mechanical brain action.”

God created the human mind to know Him and to choose to love, trust, and obey Him. In the very creative act, God planned for mankind to rule His earthly creation and to serve as His representatives on earth. Because the mind goes beyond the physical realm, it goes beyond the reaches of science and cannot be medically sick.

Since the mind is not a physical organ, it cannot have a disease. While one can have a diseased brain, one cannot have a diseased mind, although he may have a sinful or unredeemed mind. Torrey aptly says:

“The mind cannot really become diseased any more than the intellect can become abscessed. Furthermore, the idea that mental ‘diseases’ are actually brain diseases creates a strange category of ‘diseases’ which are, by definition, without known cause. Body and behavior become intertwined in this confusion until they are no longer distinguishable.

It is necessary to return to first principles: a disease is something you have, behavior is something you do.”

One can understand what a diseased body is, but what is a diseased mind? It is obvious that one cannot have a diseased emotion or a diseased behavior. Then why a diseased mind? Nevertheless, therapists continually refer to mental-emotional-behavioral problems as diseases.

Thomas Szasz criticizes what he calls the “psychiatric impostor” who “supports a common, culturally shared desire to equate and confuse brain and mind, nerves and nervousness.” Not only are brain and mind not synonymous, neither are nerves and nervousness. One might nervously await the arrival of a friend who is late for an appointment, but the nerves are busy performing other tasks. Szasz further says: “It is customary to define psychiatry as a medical specialty concerned with the study, diagnosis, and treatment of mental illness. This is a worthless and misleading definition. Mental illness is a myth ... the notion of a person ‘having a mental illness’ is scientifically crippling.

 

[fortytworc]

Excerpt from http://www.thinkingchristian.net/C278308471/E20060313140239/index.html

The whole is a rather lengthy article, but reveals that the mind is, as I have said all along... immaterial.

In my opinion this is something that can easily and rationally be discussed. There is all kind of room for trying to understand and help someone. A door is open through which ideas can pass both ways. Having this as one tool among many can bring people to a place where someone with OCD can be helped even though there may not be total agreement. The mind is still able to maneuver through the whole in hope of finding a part that can be used. For me it sure beats what occurred in most of this thread.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

In my opinion this is something that can easily and rationally be discussed. There is all kind of room for trying to understand and help someone. A door is open through which ideas can pass both ways. Having this as one tool among many can bring people to a place where someone with OCD can be helped even though there may not be total agreement. The mind is still able to maneuver through the whole in hope of finding a part that can be used. For me it sure beats what occurred in most of this thread.

What occurred in this thread was clarification at least for me. Once again, the religious fundamentalist right has proven to me that they are extremely narrow minded & shallow when it comes to suffering of their fellow human beings. Really no surprise there. After viewing this thread, I hope it is a game changer for viewers. My advise, run away from these types.....you are not compromising your beliefs, only accepting that God is bigger than these fringe dogmatic medieval believers.

 

[seekingthetruth]

What occurred in this thread was clarification at least for me. Once again, the religious fundamentalist right has proven to me that they are extremely narrow minded & shallow when it comes to suffering of their fellow human beings. Really no surprise there. After viewing this thread, I hope it is a game changer for viewers. My advise, run away from these types.....you are not compromising your beliefs, only accepting that God is bigger than these fringe dogmatic medieval believers.

:applause::applause::thumbsup::thumbsup: