pictures of a brain with mental illness for fred

[12strings]

Excerpt from http://www.thinkingchristian.net/C278308471/E20060313140239/index.html

The whole is a rather lengthy article, but reveals that the mind is, as I have said all along... immaterial.

1. I don't really see why this debate has gone on this long. There is certainly an immaterial aspect to ourselves that is our real self, whether you call it "mind", "spirit", "heart". No one can deny this.

2. However, that does not settle the larger discussion. It may simply mean that people are using the word "mental illness" in an incorrect way, when they should be saying: "brain illness". I have no doubt that much of modern psychology is over-diagnosing people's problems that a good pastoral counselor could have just as good or better results...However there ARE physical & Brain conditions that can affect the way we think.

3. Our job as christians is not to get people off drugs. It is to give the gospel, and give godly counsel to a person, whether they are on drugs or have a label or not.

 

[fortytworc]

What occurred in this thread was clarification at least for me. Once again, the religious fundamentalist right has proven to me that they are extremely narrow minded & shallow when it comes to suffering of their fellow human beings. Really no surprise there. After viewing this thread, I hope it is a game changer for viewers. My advise, run away from these types.....you are not compromising your beliefs, only accepting that God is bigger than these fringe dogmatic medieval believers.

My gut tells me you are correct. I seem to be under some compulsion of belief that causes me to keep trying to reason with the unreasonable. I think that certainly people of reasonable intelligence will see that 1+1=2. It really is hard for me to let go and use my energy on actually moving forward. I'm not sure that this mentality is restricted to conservative religious fundamentalists. Though the percentage is higher in that group I have come across many narrow minded fascist liberals. I suppose they should all be left preaching to the choir.

 

[annsni]

My wife read this thread tonight, and she made a very good comment about it.

She said that usually when a person has a very dogmatic denial of an issue it is because that issue is quite personal to them.

Hmmmm.

Fred, could it be that you have been diagnosed with a mental illness, and your way of dealing with it is denial?

John

I stated that back a few pages ago too John.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

1. I don't really see why this debate has gone on this long. There is certainly an immaterial aspect to ourselves that is our real self, whether you call it "mind", "spirit", "heart". No one can deny this.

2. However, that does not settle the larger discussion. It may simply mean that people are using the word "mental illness" in an incorrect way, when they should be saying: "brain illness". I have no doubt that much of modern psychology is over-diagnosing people's problems that a good pastoral counselor could have just as good or better results...However there ARE physical & Brain conditions that can affect the way we think.

3. Our job as christians is not to get people off drugs. It is to give the gospel, and give godly counsel to a person, whether they are on drugs or have a label or not.

If people are being given mind-altering drugs, why shouldn't they be told to get off of them?

Revelation reveals that during the Great Tribulation, people will not repent of their sorceries, and by their sorceries all nations of the Earth will be deceived.

The Greek word for 'sorceries' is the word 'pharmakeia' and means 'medication.' It is where we get our word 'pharmacy' from.

People would not repent of their medication and deceived all nations of the Earth with their medications. Sounds like mind-altering drugs to me.

And the Word of God reveals that people need to repent, or turn away from taking them.

 

[DHK]

I am correct. And one cannot reverse mental illness as mental illness does not exist.

Drugs, trauma, etc., do affect the mind. But they do not make the mind sick. The mind cannot get sick, being immaterial.

We are all under the curse. Man is a fallen creature. The Bible says that "we wait for the redemption of our bodies." The "mind" though in a sense is immaterial, is in another sense like a muscle and needs to be exercised. Thus we have commands in the Bible such as:

Comfort "the feeble-minded."
--If the mind is totally immaterial how can it be feeble?

"Let this mind be in you which is also in Jesus Christ."
--We are to conform our minds to the same mind which is in Christ Jesus. This takes effort.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
--Again, the renewing of our mind; it involves the exercise of our mind.

2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
--The battle is in the mind. If it is not waged properly, it may fail.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
--In this great warfare Paul chose to serve God with his mind. That is where the battle takes place.

You can allow your mind to become sick and perverted by the world.
You can allow your mind to become strong and healthy by the word.
Which do you choose?

There are some that have genuine chemical imbalances of the brain that cause the mind to malfunction. That is a fact of science.
It is also a fact that a great percentage of those in mental institutions today, are there because of spiritual problems. They are there because of a burden of guilt, the consequence of sin, a condemned conscience, etc. They cannot find the freedom from sin that will alleviate the freedom of the mind. The mind has become sick.

In a sense we all have imperfect minds (mental illness??). Why? Because we are not perfect and do not live in a perfect world. We live under the curse. We wait for the redemption of our bodies. Our minds will not be perfect until we receive our glorified bodies at the resurrection.

 

[12strings]

If people are being given mind-altering drugs, why shouldn't they be told to get off of them?

-Because I am not a doctor, I'm a pastor, and If I pastorally counsel someone to get off their medications and they do something crazy, I could be sued by their family or the state, and could lose everything and deprive my family of their provision. That's why...It's simply not my place...
-I may think they don't need them; and if we get to a place in counsel that they also believe they don't need them, I should say, "You might be right about that, you should talk to your doctor about that."
-If I were a Doctor, then I could make an informed recommendation to them.
-I agree with your general position more than you know...But if someone has been treated with medication by a doctor for some time, It is not my place to make them stop.
-If if feel very strongly that their medications are doing more harm than good, I may suggest they get a second doctoral opinion, perhaps from a doctor that I know is more likely to see non-medical solutions.

Revelation reveals that during the Great Tribulation, people will not repent of their sorceries, and by their sorceries all nations of the Earth will be deceived.

The Greek word for 'sorceries' is the word 'pharmakeia' and means 'medication.' It is where we get our word 'pharmacy' from.

People would not repent of their medication and deceived all nations of the Earth with their medications. Sounds like mind-altering drugs to me.

And the Word of God reveals that people need to repent, or turn away from taking them.

If we take your logic to it's end, we should repent of ALL medications...and CAFFIENE! (Don't get me started!) Also, laughing gas, morphine, and vicaden are out.

The brain is a complex thing, as is the mind, as is the body, and they are all connected. Sometimes treating one can improve function of the other.

 

[12strings]

We are all under the curse. Man is a fallen creature. The Bible says that "we wait for the redemption of our bodies." The "mind" though in a sense is immaterial, is in another sense like a muscle and needs to be exercised. Thus we have commands in the Bible such as:

Comfort "the feeble-minded."
--If the mind is totally immaterial how can it be feeble?

"Let this mind be in you which is also in Jesus Christ."
--We are to conform our minds to the same mind which is in Christ Jesus. This takes effort.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
--Again, the renewing of our mind; it involves the exercise of our mind.

2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
--The battle is in the mind. If it is not waged properly, it may fail.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
--In this great warfare Paul chose to serve God with his mind. That is where the battle takes place.

You can allow your mind to become sick and perverted by the world.
You can allow your mind to become strong and healthy by the word.
Which do you choose?

There are some that have genuine chemical imbalances of the brain that cause the mind to malfunction. That is a fact of science.
It is also a fact that a great percentage of those in mental institutions today, are there because of spiritual problems. They are there because of a burden of guilt, the consequence of sin, a condemned conscience, etc. They cannot find the freedom from sin that will alleviate the freedom of the mind. The mind has become sick.

In a sense we all have imperfect minds (mental illness??). Why? Because we are not perfect and do not live in a perfect world. We live under the curse. We wait for the redemption of our bodies. Our minds will not be perfect until we receive our glorified bodies at the resurrection.

Excellent post, although I still agree with Fred that the mind is not material.

 

[annsni]

An interesting question for Fred:

One year ago yesterday, my daughter was recovering from serious surgery for a softball sized pancreatic tumor. She was just 21. That day one year ago yesterday, she started vomiting. Over the next 10 days, she continued to vomit uncontrollably and after doing innumerable tests, it was decided that there was nothing wrong with her. She had no infection, no gastric ilius, no fluid in her abdomen pressing on her stomach - absolutely no reason for her to be vomiting every 3-7 minutes around the clock. The doctor finally came in and told us that they didn't know what else to do - they couldn't find the cause of this. We were losing her.

So, was there sin in her life that was causing this? What would that sin be? She's a good kid - not in trouble at all.

Oh - and the only medication that helped her was not the anti-nausea meds. They did nothing for her. Instead, it was Ativan that worked - a medication that is used for anxiety and is very strong. It is a medication that works on "mental illness", not physical illness.

If it was sin, why is it then that God decided to heal her the very night the doctor said that they didn't know what else to do? If it was sin, nothing changed in that overnight other than the fact that we anointed her with oil and prayed for her. She confessed no sin - even when we asked her when anointing her. Whatever it was that was causing this, it was not physical according to the doctors.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

We are all under the curse. Man is a fallen creature. The Bible says that "we wait for the redemption of our bodies." The "mind" though in a sense is immaterial, is in another sense like a muscle and needs to be exercised. Thus we have commands in the Bible such as:

Comfort "the feeble-minded."
--If the mind is totally immaterial how can it be feeble?

"Let this mind be in you which is also in Jesus Christ."
--We are to conform our minds to the same mind which is in Christ Jesus. This takes effort.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
--Again, the renewing of our mind; it involves the exercise of our mind.

2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
--The battle is in the mind. If it is not waged properly, it may fail.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
--In this great warfare Paul chose to serve God with his mind. That is where the battle takes place.

You can allow your mind to become sick and perverted by the world.
You can allow your mind to become strong and healthy by the word.
Which do you choose?

There are some that have genuine chemical imbalances of the brain that cause the mind to malfunction. That is a fact of science.
It is also a fact that a great percentage of those in mental institutions today, are there because of spiritual problems. They are there because of a burden of guilt, the consequence of sin, a condemned conscience, etc. They cannot find the freedom from sin that will alleviate the freedom of the mind. The mind has become sick.

In a sense we all have imperfect minds (mental illness??). Why? Because we are not perfect and do not live in a perfect world. We live under the curse. We wait for the redemption of our bodies. Our minds will not be perfect until we receive our glorified bodies at the resurrection.

Chemical imbalance has never been proven, DHK. So it is not a 'fact of science.'

Here is a video of a woman who was diagnosed with a 'chemical imbalance', was put on pills for 12 years and her problems worsened to the point of thoughts of suicide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q9odRajmc0

Thankfully, she found out that there are no tests that prove 'chemical imbalance' and got off of those drugs two years ago.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

-Because I am not a doctor, I'm a pastor, and If I pastorally counsel someone to get off their medications and they do something crazy, I could be sued by their family or the state, and could lose everything and deprive my family of their provision. That's why...It's simply not my place...
-I may think they don't need them; and if we get to a place in counsel that they also believe they don't need them, I should say, "You might be right about that, you should talk to your doctor about that."
-If I were a Doctor, then I could make an informed recommendation to them.
-I agree with your general position more than you know...But if someone has been treated with medication by a doctor for some time, It is not my place to make them stop.
-If if feel very strongly that their medications are doing more harm than good, I may suggest they get a second doctoral opinion, perhaps from a doctor that I know is more likely to see non-medical solutions.



If we take your logic to it's end, we should repent of ALL medications...and CAFFIENE! (Don't get me started!) Also, laughing gas, morphine, and vicaden are out.

The brain is a complex thing, as is the mind, as is the body, and they are all connected. Sometimes treating one can improve function of the other.

Actually, I do not believe that pharmakeia is speaking of all drugs, only mind altering drugs. Revelations says they deceived the nations with their pharmakeia.

There is nothing wrong with a pastor telling a person the dangers of psychotropic drugs and why they should be avoided.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

An interesting question for Fred:

One year ago yesterday, my daughter was recovering from serious surgery for a softball sized pancreatic tumor. She was just 21. That day one year ago yesterday, she started vomiting. Over the next 10 days, she continued to vomit uncontrollably and after doing innumerable tests, it was decided that there was nothing wrong with her. She had no infection, no gastric ilius, no fluid in her abdomen pressing on her stomach - absolutely no reason for her to be vomiting every 3-7 minutes around the clock. The doctor finally came in and told us that they didn't know what else to do - they couldn't find the cause of this. We were losing her.

So, was there sin in her life that was causing this? What would that sin be? She's a good kid - not in trouble at all.

Oh - and the only medication that helped her was not the anti-nausea meds. They did nothing for her. Instead, it was Ativan that worked - a medication that is used for anxiety and is very strong. It is a medication that works on "mental illness", not physical illness.

If it was sin, why is it then that God decided to heal her the very night the doctor said that they didn't know what else to do? If it was sin, nothing changed in that overnight other than the fact that we anointed her with oil and prayed for her. She confessed no sin - even when we asked her when anointing her. Whatever it was that was causing this, it was not physical according to the doctors.

Since there is no such thing as 'mental illness', Ativan does not 'work on mental illness.'

Lorazepam is a drug that slows activity in the brain, allowing the brain to relax. The vomiting is not caused by a 'sick mind', rather it is caused activity in the brain, chemicals (not imbalanced) working overtime and having an adverse reaction on the brain and the body.

Lorazepam has many side effects and some can be quite severe, some affecting the hearts ability to function properly.

 

[annsni]

There is nothing wrong with a pastor telling a person the dangers of psychotropic drugs and why they should be avoided.

So my daughter should not have used ativan?

 

[Steadfast Fred]

I did not say that, annsni.

Ativan is not a mind-altering drug. It affects the brain, not the mind. It slows down the chemicals in the brain allowing it to relax.

Just to let you know, I said people should not be taking 'psychotropic' drugs. Ativan is not classified as a psychotropic drug.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

If patients come to me asking them if they should take medication due to anxiety, I would not tell them to take psychotropic drugs. Instead, I would tell them to have a talk with the Lord.

The Bible tells us to "Cast our cares on Him", so psychotropic drugs for anxiety is not the answer. Oh, they may squelch the anxiety, but that is going to the wrong source for solution to a spiritual problem. Anxiety is a spiritual problem, and as such should be handled in a spiritual matter.

Now, if those same patients came to me asking for medications that dealt with physical ailments, then I could recommend drugs that were not psychotropic in nature.

 

[annsni]

If patients come to me asking them if they should take medication due to anxiety, I would not tell them to take psychotropic drugs. Instead, I would tell them to have a talk with the Lord.

So you are a doctor?

 

[Steadfast Fred]

I've been caled "Doc" for many years now.

 

[annsni]

I've been caled "Doc" for many years now.

Are you a licensed physician?

 

[DHK]

Chemical imbalance has never been proven, DHK. So it is not a 'fact of science.'

Here is a video of a woman who was diagnosed with a 'chemical imbalance', was put on pills for 12 years and her problems worsened to the point of thoughts of suicide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q9odRajmc0

Thankfully, she found out that there are no tests that prove 'chemical imbalance' and got off of those drugs two years ago.

So you say:
"Chemical imbalance has never been proven, DHK. So it is not a 'fact of science.'"

Never say never. That also is a fact. It is also factual that the plague of obesity that has reached our nation is simply caused by over-eating, but there is a small percentage, maybe 2-4% that may be caused by "a chemical imbalance" in the brain. Things happen in the brain which cannot be dismissed.

Tell me. Do you have an answer for all the thousands and thousands of epileptics (about one out of every ten individuals) that must rely on drugs to control this brain disorder. It is not a chemical imbalance per se, as it has to do with the neurons and snyapses, and nerves in the brain. But it is a malfunction of the brain, and is treated with drugs that are far more potent, powerful and potentially dangerous than any anti-depressant mentioned in your video link. Yet without these life saving drugs the epileptic's life would be in danger constantly and shortened very quickly.

It is easy to sit in the armchair and say drugs for the brain are wrong. But medicine does have its place. There have been "pastors" down throughout the years that have forbidden their members to seek any doctors or medical attention at all, often ending up with fatal consequences. God has given us a brain to use and develop those things that are best for the betterment of the human body. Even Luke was a physician and no doubt tended to Paul in his travels.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

So you say:
"Chemical imbalance has never been proven, DHK. So it is not a 'fact of science.'"

Never say never. That also is a fact. It is also factual that the plague of obesity that has reached our nation is simply caused by over-eating, but there is a small percentage, maybe 2-4% that may be caused by "a chemical imbalance" in the brain. Things happen in the brain which cannot be dismissed.

Tell me. Do you have an answer for all the thousands and thousands of epileptics (about one out of every ten individuals) that must rely on drugs to control this brain disorder. It is not a chemical imbalance per se, as it has to do with the neurons and snyapses, and nerves in the brain. But it is a malfunction of the brain, and is treated with drugs that are far more potent, powerful and potentially dangerous than any anti-depressant mentioned in your video link. Yet without these life saving drugs the epileptic's life would be in danger constantly and shortened very quickly.

It is easy to sit in the armchair and say drugs for the brain are wrong. But medicine does have its place. There have been "pastors" down throughout the years that have forbidden their members to seek any doctors or medical attention at all, often ending up with fatal consequences. God has given us a brain to use and develop those things that are best for the betterment of the human body. Even Luke was a physician and no doubt tended to Paul in his travels.

Not all epilepsy is caused by neurons and synapses in the brain, DHK. Unless we want to call the Word of God a lie when it identifies one young lads epileptic episodes as being due to a demon in the lad.

One cannot just say, Oh, you have epilepsy, I am going to prescribe this Lamotrigine and it will take care of the problem.

That's the problem in today's society. A magic pill for everything, when not all things are of the physical realm even when they seem to be.

God is pushed out of the picture altogether. Who needs God? We have a pill that can take care of that problem...

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

My gut tells me you are correct. I seem to be under some compulsion of belief that causes me to keep trying to reason with the unreasonable. I think that certainly people of reasonable intelligence will see that 1+1=2. It really is hard for me to let go and use my energy on actually moving forward. I'm not sure that this mentality is restricted to conservative religious fundamentalists. Though the percentage is higher in that group I have come across many narrow minded fascist liberals. I suppose they should all be left preaching to the choir.

Yes .....this is true also, sorry to say.