Please Biblically Show Why The 5 Points Of Arminianism Are Correct?

[JesusFan]

It should be noted that a "Hyper-Calvinist" is not simply a "really serious Calvinist." There are actual different beliefs about truth and practice that even a "very serious" Calvinist would disagree with.

Just referring to sometimes people post things like"no need to preach the Gospel""God is just a puppet master""You have no choice/Gods fault that you are lost" etc when labeling the "evil/wrong/bad" doctrines of Calvinism!

 

[psalms109:31]

Sometime

Sometimes tells me that is not the biggest problem, a problem that can be fixed by working out the major problem out there. Most non-Cal I see on BB believe that there is those who will not come, but give those the benefit of the doubt. God can do the impossible and most are witnesses to this themselves with the way God dealt with them. Who see the impossibility with them and God still did the impossible with them through Jesus.

 

[Van]

hyper-Calvinists simply embrace the logical necessities of Calvinism, whereas the main-stream Calvinists hold on to logical paradoxes like God ordains whatsoever comes to pass but is not responsible for sin. A Hyper would simply embrace that if God ordains everything, He ordains sin.

 

[Robert Snow]

hyper-Calvinists simply embrace the logical necessities of Calvinism, whereas the main-stream Calvinists hold on to logical paradoxes like God ordains whatsoever comes to pass but is not responsible for sin. A Hyper would simply embrace that if God ordains everything, He ordains sin.

Some time ago I visited a Primitive Baptist church close to my house. They were definitely hyper-Calvinistic in there doctrine. Two times the pastor stated that the Elect were saved even if they never hear the Gospel. I left the service wishing I had spent the time at the circus.

Now, I'm not saying that all Primitive Baptist churches teach this, but this one surely did.

 

[preacher4truth]

Some time ago I visited a Primitive Baptist church close to my house. They were definitely hyper-Calvinistic in there doctrine. Two times the pastor stated that the Elect were saved even if they never hear the Gospel. I left the service wishing I had spent the time at the circus.

Now, I'm not saying that all Primitive Baptist churches teach this, but this one surely did.

I think they try to have an answer for all things. I'd like to see some Biblical evidence for this belief of theirs. I believe it (said belief) rests in mans logic, not within Biblical revelation.

 

[Van]

A slightly less eqresious claim is that all babies, and infants who die are elect and therefore go to heaven without understanding or embracing the gospel. I think Spurgeon made this claim? Fruit from the same tree.

 

[seekingthetruth]

Some time ago I visited a Primitive Baptist church close to my house. They were definitely hyper-Calvinistic in there doctrine. Two times the pastor stated that the Elect were saved even if they never hear the Gospel. I left the service wishing I had spent the time at the circus.

Now, I'm not saying that all Primitive Baptist churches teach this, but this one surely did.

I personally know of a Calvinist Baptist that strictly does not believe in evangelism of any sort.

And I see their point. If God has already chosen His elect, how is any church or individual going to change that? If God uses His Almighty power to "save whom He wishes", then my little measely testimony means nothing.

When you were in the Primitive Baptist Church did they also try to tell you that "foot washing" was a sacrement and that we are commanded to do it?

John

 

[Robert Snow]

I personally know of a Calvinist Baptist that strictly does not believe in evangelism of any sort.

And I see their point. If God has already chosen His elect, how is any church or individual going to change that? If God uses His Almighty power to "save whom He wishes", then my little measely testimony means nothing.

When you were in the Primitive Baptist Church did they also try to tell you that "foot washing" was a sacrement and that we are commanded to do it?

John

There were only fifteen or twenty people there. They were not rude, but they pretty much ignored me. A couple of people smiled and said hello.

They didn't even mention foot-washing.

After the service was over I jumped on my motorcycle and left.

 

[psalms109:31]

A slightly less eqresious claim is that all babies, and infants who die are elect and therefore go to heaven without understanding or embracing the gospel. I think Spurgeon made this claim? Fruit from the same tree.

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0411.htm

"II. This brings me now to note THE REASONS WHY WE THUS THINK INFANTS ARE SAVED.
First, we ground our conviction very much upon the goodness of the nature of God. We say that the opposite doctrine that some infants perish and are lost, is altogether repugnant to the idea which we have of Him whose name is love. If we had a God, whose name was Moloch, if God were an arbitrary tyrant, without benevolence or grace, we could suppose some infants being cast into hell; but our God, who heareth the young ravens when they cry, certainly will find no delight in the shrieks and cries of infants cast away from his presence. We read of him that he is so tender, that he careth for oxen, that he would not have the mouth of the ox muzzled, that treadeth out the corn. Nay, he careth for the bird upon the nest, and would not have the mother bird killed while sitting upon its nest with its little ones. He made ordinances and commands even for irrational creatures. He finds food for the most loathsome animal, nor does he neglect the worm any more than the angel, and shall we believe with such universal goodness as this, that he would cast away the infant soul I say it would he clear contrary to all that we have ever read or ever believed of Him, that our faith would stagger before a revelation which should display a fact so singularly exceptional to the tenor of his other deeds. We have learned humbly to submit our judgments to his will, and we dare not criticise or accuse the Lord of All; we believe him to be just, let him do as he may, and? Therefore, whatever he might reveal we would accept; but he never has, and I think he never will require of us so desperate a stretch of faith as to see goodness in the eternal misery of an infinite cast into hell. You remember when Jonah—petulant, quick-tempered Jonah—would have Nineveh perish God gave it as the reason why Nineveh should not be destroyed, that there were in it more than six score thousand infants,—persons, he said, who knew not their light hand tram their left. If he spared Nineveh that their mortal life might be spared, think you that their immortal souls shall be needlessly cast away! I only put it to your own reason. It is not a case where we need much argument. Would your God cast away an infant? If yours could, I am happy to say he is not the God that I adore.
Again, we think it would be inconsistent utterly with the known character of our Lord Jesus Christ. When his disciples put away the little children whom their anxious mothers brought to him, Jesus said, "Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not for of such is the kingdom of heaven," by which he taught, as John Newton very properly says, that such as these made up a very great part of the kingdom of heaven. And when we consider that upon the best statistics it is calculated that more than one third of the human race die in infancy, and probably if we take into calculation those districts where infanticide prevails, as in heathen countries, such as China and the like, perhaps one half of the population of the world die before they reach adult years,—the saying of the Savior derives great force indeed," Of such is the kingdom of heaven." If some remind me that the kingdom of heaven means the dispensation of grace on earth, I answer, yes, it does, and it means the same dispensation in heaven too, for while part of the kingdom of heaven is on earth in the Church, since the Church is always one, that other part of the Church which is above is also the kingdom of heaven. We know this text is constantly used as a proof of baptism, but in the first place, Christ did not baptize them, for "Jesus Christ baptized not;" in the second place, his disciples did not baptize them, for they withstood their coming, and would have driven them away. Then if Jesus did not, and his disciple did not, who did,' It has no more to do with baptism than with circumcision. There is not the slightest allusion to baptism in the text, or in the context; and I can prove the circumcision of infants from it with quite as fair logic as others attempt to prove infant baptism. However, it does prove this, that infants compose a great part of the family of Christ, and that Jesus Christ is known to have had a love and amiableness towards the little ones. When they shouted in the temple, "Hosanna!" did he rebuke them? No; but rejoiced in their boyish shouts. "Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings hath God ordained strength," and does not that text seem to say that in heaven there shall be "perfect praise" rendered to God by multitudes of cherubs who were here on earth—your little ones fondled in your bosom—and then suddenly snatched away to heaven. I could not believe it of Jesus, that he would say to little children, "Depart, ye accursed, into everlasting fire in hell!" I cannot conceive it possible of him as the loving and tender one, that when he shall sit to judge all nations, he should put the little ones on the left hand, and should banish them for ever from his presence. Could he address them, and say to them, "I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink, sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not? "How could they do it? And if the main reason of damnation lie in sins of omission like there which it was not possible for them to commit, for want of power to perform the duty how, then, shall he condemn and cast them away?
Furthermore, we think that the ways of grace, if we consider them, render it highly improbable, not to say impossible, that an infant soul should be destroyed. What saith Scripture? "Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." Such a thing as that could not be sail of an infant cast away. We know that God is so abundantly gracious that such expressions as the "unsearchable riches of Christ," "God who is rich in mercy," "A God full of compassion," "The exceeding riches of his grace," and the like are truly applicable without exaggeration or hyperbole. We know that he is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works, and that in grace he is able to do "exceeding abundantly above what we can ask or even think." The grace of God has sought out in the world the greatest sinners. It has not passed by the vilest of the vile. He who called himself the chief of sinners was a partaker of the love of Christ. All manner of sin and of blasphemy have been forgiven unto man. He has been able to save unto the uttermost them that come unto God by Christ, and dons it seem consistent with such grace as this that it should pass by the myriads upon myriads of little ones, who wear the image of the earthy Adam, and never stamp upon them the image of the heavenly? I cannot conceive such a thing. He that has tasted and felt, and handled the grace of God, will, I think, shrink instinctively from any other doctrine than this, that infants dying such, are most assuredly saved."

 

[seekingthetruth]

There were only fifteen or twenty people there. They were not rude, but they pretty much ignored me. A couple of people smiled and said hello.

They didn't even mention foot-washing.

After the service was over I jumped on my motorcycle and left.

I don't blame you.

I have found that most Calvinists do ignore us regular Christians unless we are willing to listen to the doctrine of Calvinism.

My theory is that if a "foot washing" church washes my feet just one time, that they will denounce that practice forever.

John aka 'stinky feet'

 

[Rippon]

I see their main argument is some don't even have the ability to come to Jesus,

Speaking of "WOW", just who are those who have this special ability to come to Jesus on their own power? Can someone dead in trespasses and sins,blinded and hardened in their sins,hating God and without hope in this world have the strength of will,insight, to come to Jesus on their own? Of course not. All of us are in that state before regeneration.

 

[psalms109:31]

Speaking of "WOW", just who are those who have this special ability to come to Jesus on their own power? Can someone dead in trespasses and sins,blinded and hardened in their sins,hating God and without hope in this world have the strength of will,insight, to come to Jesus on their own? Of course not. All of us are in that state before regeneration.

Through the power of the word of God, but it places not one road, but two believe in Jesus and be saved or not and continue to condemnation.

God has placed life and death before us through His word so choose Jesus and live.

It amazes me how men lower the power of the word of God that brought life out of nothing

 

[Winman]

Speaking of "WOW", just who are those who have this special ability to come to Jesus on their own power? Can someone dead in trespasses and sins,blinded and hardened in their sins,hating God and without hope in this world have the strength of will,insight, to come to Jesus on their own? Of course not. All of us are in that state before regeneration.

So, when tens of thousands of people pack stadiums to hear evangelists every one of them was regenerated? Did God drag them there? If so, why doesn't every single person in the crowd accept Christ?

Reality doesn't support Total Depravity as Calvinism (and you) understand it. If people truly hated God as you say, there is no way huge crowds would attend these events.

 

[12strings]

If people truly hated God as you say, there is no way huge crowds would attend these events.

I think it's safe to say that there are MANY people who attend church for 20, 30, 50 years who hate God and never stop hating him...and i think every calvinist, arminian, pelagian, or anyone else would agree that it's true.

 

[Winman]

I think it's safe to say that there are MANY people who attend church for 20, 30, 50 years who hate God and never stop hating him...and i think every calvinist, arminian, pelagian, or anyone else would agree that it's true.

I think that is total nonsense. If you hate God you are not going to attend church.

Paul said the Jews had a zeal for God, he did not say they hated God. He said they were unwilling to submit to the righteousness which is by faith, and sought to establish their own righteousness. Nevertheless, Paul said they had a zeal for God. They did not hate God.

There is a reason huge crowds flock to evangelistic events, people are hungry for God, people are looking for answers. This does not support Total Depravity whatsoever.

It is amazing how Calvinism warps one's view of their fellow man. I wonder if the people at your church suspect that you think they hate God? But perhaps they suspect you hate God. Nice.

 

[Rippon]

So, when tens of thousands of people pack stadiums to hear evangelists every one of them was regenerated?

How in the world have you arrived at that from my words. Of they all are not regenerate.

Did God drag them there?

God drags no one. That's your faulty view of Calvinism.

If so, why doesn't every single person in the crowd accept Christ?

Since your premise is flawed --the above is a non-starter.

Reality doesn't support Total Depravity as Calvinism (and you) understand it.

That's a joke. I am a Calvinist --you are a rabid anti-Calvinist --and yet you say Calvinism as I understand it.

Scripture supports pervasive corruption. It is also very evident to the eyes and ears of any observant individual.

If people truly hated God as you say, there is no way huge crowds would attend these events.

I'm sure some God-haters are in the crowds of these events.

 

[Winman]

If people hate God as YOU said, why would they attend an event where they know they will hear preaching about God? It doesn't make a bit of sense and you know it. And I am not wrong about your view of Calvinism, you stated your view.

This excuse that non-Cals do not understand Calvinism is as lame as a two legged dog, all we have to do is listen to you.

Paul said the Jews had a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. The problem is identified, they lacked proper knowledge. Why? False doctrine. Lots of folks want to know of God but have been blinded by false doctrine, by lies of the devil. Paul said he was ignorant. He did not hate God, in fact he thought he was serving God when he persecuted Christians.

There are folks who hate God, these are usually athiests, but most people do not hate God.

 

[Rippon]

It amazes me how men lower the power of the word of God that brought life out of nothing

How have I lowered the power of God when I have accurately spoken of what the Word of God teaches that people are depraved and their wills are in bondage to the Devil?

 

[Rippon]

If people hate God as YOU said,...

There are folks who hate God, these are usually athiests, but most people do not hate God.

Every unregenerate person hates God. That means the majority of the human race --not just the self-proclaimed atheists in the pack. Most people do in fact hate God.

 

[psalms109:31]

How have I lowered the power of God when I have accurately spoken of what the Word of God teaches that people are depraved and their wills are in bondage to the Devil?

Have you lowered it I am not your judge, if you haven't then I am not talking about you but others who do!

This is what the word teaches about the power of the word of God is to the dead and we being filled by the same Holy Spirit that resided in Jesus Christ are the messengers of those words of life for the dead.

1 John 1
The Incarnation of the Word of Life
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our[Some manuscripts your] joy complete.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

John 5:25
Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

2 Corinthians 5:
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[Or Christ, that person is a new creation.] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[Or be a sin offering] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.