Please Explain 1 John 2 "Jesus propiation For Sins Of Whole World!"

[JesusFan]

here is the chance to help me become " a better calvinist"

What would be the biblical way to understand and view what the HS inspired the Apostle John to write in this passage of scriptures?

As My prior postings that were made regarding on how cals view this topic were coming pretty much from the same views epoused in John calvin commentaries, and MORE importantly, from the Bible itself!

 

[Amy.G]

It means Christ satisfied God's wrath against sin for EVERYONE.

 

[freeatlast]

here is the chance to help me become " a better calvinist"

What would be the biblical way to understand and view what the HS inspired the Apostle John to write in this passage of scriptures?

As My prior postings that were made regarding on how cals view this topic were coming pretty much from the same views epoused in John calvin commentaries, and MORE importantly, from the Bible itself!

He is the satisfaction "for our sins, but not only for ours but for the sins of the whole world" (A.V.). Vincent says: "The sins of (A.V., italicized) should be omitted; as in Rev., for the whole world. Compare 1 John 4:14; John 4:42; 12:32. 'The propitiation is as wide as the sin' (Bengel). If men do not experience its benefit, the fault is not in its efficacy. Dusterdieck (cited by Huther) says, 'The propitiation has its real efficacy for the whole world; to believers it brings life, to unbelievers, death.' Luther: 'It is a patent fact that thou art a part of the whole world; so that thine heart cannot deceive itself, and think, the Lord died for Peter and Paul, but not for me.' "
Smith comments: "for the sins of the whole world." This is grammatically possible (cf. Matt. 5:20), but it misses the point. There are sins, special and occasional, in the believer; there is sin in the world; it is sinful through and through. The apostle means, 'for our sins and that mass of sin, the world.' "
Translation: My little children, these things I am writing to you in order that you may not commit an act of sin. And if anyone commit an act of sin, One who pleads our cause we constantly have facing the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous One. And He Himself is a satisfaction for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the whole world.
—Wuest's Word Studies

 

[HankD]

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

HankD​

 

[Rippon]

It means Christ satisfied God's wrath against sin for EVERYONE.

That would be the view of a Universalist Amy.

If Christ propitiated the sin of every single person --then they will never face the wrath of God in eternal perdition.

Instead,from among all tribes,nations and languages the Lord has propitiated the sins of His elect ones.He selected them before He created the world,He died for them at Calvary, and in their lifetimes is when He activates His propitiatory power. That is,Christ as the propitiatory sacrifice,shields and removes from them the wrath of the Father. They,and they alone,will not suffer eternal condemnation.

 

[Greektim]

here is the chance to help me become " a better calvinist"

What would be the biblical way to understand and view what the HS inspired the Apostle John to write in this passage of scriptures?

As My prior postings that were made regarding on how cals view this topic were coming pretty much from the same views epoused in John calvin commentaries, and MORE importantly, from the Bible itself!

I think we jump quickly to conclusion that John's use of "world" can automatically refer to every soul who ever lived. I think it is just his way of using OT language which spoke of the nations. Thus eventually John draws out what he means by "world" in Revelation (5:9; 7:9; 10:11; 14:6; & others) by calling it every tribe, tongue, and nation. This is biblical language which Paul called the gospel in Gal. 3:8. God's mission was not to save every single human being otherwise God is a failure. God's mission is to redeem creation including humanity.

He started this mission for humanity after humanity was divided into nations at the tower of babel in Gen. 11. Then Gen. 12 God promises to bless the cursed nations through Moses. This is the gospel according to Paul. Thus, we need to read the NT assuming the authors picked up this missional motif. Jesus did at the end of his ministry in Lk 24:46-47. It is amazing to see all the places the nations are mentioned throughout the Bible. This is just John's verbage to refer to the nations. So... he was not just a propitiation for us but for every tribe, tongue, and nation.

This interpretation has the advantage of reading Scripture canonically seeing an Author and a constant theme throughout the text. Otherwise, John's language is too distinct and different from other writers. This brings continuity to the Bible.

 

[Skandelon]

here is the chance to help me become " a better calvinist"

What would be the biblical way to understand and view what the HS inspired the Apostle John to write in this passage of scriptures?

As My prior postings that were made regarding on how cals view this topic were coming pretty much from the same views epoused in John calvin commentaries, and MORE importantly, from the Bible itself!

If you really want to be a "better Calvinist" on this matter then you should study the likes of Shedd, AA Hodge, C. Hodge, Dabney and the like who (like Calvin himself) taught that the work of Christ was a perfect satisfaction for the sin of every person in that it removed all legal impediments or obstructions for the salvation of every person save their own unbelief. In other words, they taught that Christ's work fully satisfied the demands of God's justice for every single person.

 

[HankD]

That would be the view of a Universalist Amy.

If Christ propitiated the sin of every single person --then they will never face the wrath of God in eternal perdition.

Instead,from among all tribes,nations and languages the Lord has propitiated the sins of His elect ones.He selected them before He created the world,He died for them at Calvary, and in their lifetimes is when He activates His propitiatory power. That is,Christ as the propitiatory sacrifice,shields and removes from them the wrath of the Father. They,and they alone,will not suffer eternal condemnation.

Propitiation is different than justification.

The blood of Christ is sufficient for the sin of the world.

God therefore has a basis for mercy which is sufficient for every human being should all desire to come.

Justification requires God's mercy without which no one would be saved.

Luke 18

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.​

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other:

The pharisee was totally self assured that he was righteous.
The publican pleaded for mercy.


HankD

 

[Robert Snow]

here is the chance to help me become " a better calvinist"

Why on earth would I want to do that?

 

[Robert Snow]

That would be the view of a Universalist Amy.

Wrong!

They must trust Christ to have this forgiveness applied on their behalf.

 

[The Archangel]

Wrong!

They must trust Christ to have this forgiveness applied on their behalf.

The problem is this: You must think the atonement was only potential not actual.

This issue gets to the very heart of substitutionary/penal atonement. And, it is of great importance whom Christ was substituting Himself for.

If Christ substituted Himself for every person without exception, and God's just and holy wrath was poured out upon Christ (which it was), and an actual propitiation took place, then there is nothing for those who have not accepted Christ to be punished for in hell.

In reality, an unlimited atonement leads to universalism. (I'm not calling you or Amy universalists. In history, those who held to a general atonement usually slipped into universalism).

However, if Jesus substituted Himself for some (not all), then those people have been actually forgiven based on Jesus' substitutionary sacrifice and the rest (the non-elect) will bear the just wrath of God for all eternity since it Christ wasn't substituting Himself for them.

In the end, it has to be one of two options: 1) The atonement actually accomplished propitiation or 2) the atonement made propitiation possible. In the second case, that means our salvation must be based on something other than the death of Christ.

The Archangel

 

[convicted1]

Tip toe through the TULIPs........

 

[convicted1]

Christ satisfied God's wrath in regards to sin. W/O His work on the cross, I am afraid that God would have wipped us all off.

 

[HankD]

Propitiation is the Well of Mercy.

All who will may draw from it.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.​

HankD

 

[HankD]

In the end, it has to be one of two options: 1) The atonement actually accomplished propitiation or 2) the atonement made propitiation possible. In the second case, that means our salvation must be based on something other than the death of Christ.

The Archangel

Unless you think like God then there are other options:

Isaiah 55

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.​

HankD

 

[Van]

Reply to Skandelon

If you really want to be a "better Calvinist" on this matter then you should study the likes of Shedd, AA Hodge, C. Hodge, Dabney and the like who (like Calvin himself) taught that the work of Christ was a perfect satisfaction for the sin of every person in that it removed all legal impediments or obstructions for the salvation of every person save their own unbelief. In other words, they taught that Christ's work fully satisfied the demands of God's justice for every single person.

If I understand your assertion a better Calvinist would be more of a non-Calvinist. I agree.

1 John 2:2 is crystal and needs no fancy commentary to make it say something consistent with Calvinism's false doctrine.

Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, but becoming the means of salvation did not save anyone. Only when God uses the mechanism, by placing a person spiritually in Christ where they undergo the circumcision of Christ do they receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's sin offering sacrifice on the cross.

This is not rocket science.

 

[Skandelon]

The problem is this: You must think the atonement was only potential not actual.

This issue gets to the very heart of substitutionary/penal atonement. And, it is of great importance whom Christ was substituting Himself for.

If Christ substituted Himself for every person without exception, and God's just and holy wrath was poured out upon Christ (which it was), and an actual propitiation took place, then there is nothing for those who have not accepted Christ to be punished for in hell.

Unbelief.

"As no man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open to all men; neither is there any other thing which keepeth us back from entering in, save only our own unbelief." - John Calvin

Even scholarly Calvinists affirm the universal nature of the satisfaction of Christ's atoning work and readily admit that men's unbelief is the ONLY impediment or obstacle for their salvation. See quote below...

Nor is there any debate as to the universal reference of some of the benefits purchased by Christ. Calvinists believe that the entire dispensation of forbearance under which the human family rest since the fall, including for the unjust as well as the just temporal mercies and means of grace, is part of the purchase of Christ's blood. They admit also that Christ did in such a sense die for all men, that he thereby removed all legal obstacles from the salvation of any and every man, and that his satisfaction may be applied to one man as well as to another if God so wills it." (p. 416)."The design of Christ in dying was to effect what he actually does effect in the result. 1st. Incidentally to remove the legal impediments out of the way of all men, and render the salvation of every hearer of the gospel objectively possible, so that each one has a right to appropriate it at will, to impetrate temporal blessings for all, and the means of grace for all to whom they are providentially supplied. ... After the manner of the Augustinian Schoolmen Calvin, on 1 John ii. 2, says, 'Christ died sufficiently for all, but efficiently only for the elect.'--So Archbishop Ussher, Numbers 22 and 23 of Letters published by his Chaplain, Richard Parr, D.D." (p. 417)"A bona fide offer of the gospel, therefore, is to be made to all men--1st. Because the satisfaction rendered to the law is sufficient for all men. 2d. Because it is exactly adapted to the redemption of all. 3d. Because God designs that whosoever exercises faith in Christ shall be saved by him. Thus the atonement makes the salvation of every man to whom it is offered objectively possible. The design of Christ's death being to secure the salvation of his own people, incidentally to the accomplishment of that end, it comprehends the offer of that salvation freely and honestly to all men on the condition of their faith. No man is lost for the want of an atonement, or because there is any other barrier in the way of his salvation than his own most free and wicked will."23. How can the condemnation of men for the rejection of Christ be reconciled with the doctrine that Christ died for the elect only? - AA Hodge

There are hundreds more of these quotes from men like C. Hodge, Dabney, Shedd and the like...

 

[Skandelon]

If Christ substituted Himself for every person without exception, and God's just and holy wrath was poured out upon Christ (which it was), and an actual propitiation took place, then there is nothing for those who have not accepted Christ to be punished for in hell.

R.L. Dabney, a respected Calvinistic scholar, refutes this line of reasoning when he writes:

"Nor would we attach any force to the argument, that if Christ made penal satisfaction for the sins of all, justice would forbid any to be punished. To urge this argument surrenders virtually the very ground on which the first Socinian objection was refuted, and is incompatible with the facts that God chastises justified believers, and holds elect unbelievers subject to wrath till they believe. Christ's satisfaction is not a pecuniary equivalent, but only such a one as enables the Father, consistently with His attributes, to pardon, if in His mercy He sees fit. The whole avails of the satisfaction to a given man is suspended on his belief. There would be no injustice to the man, if he remaining an unbeliever, his guilt were punished twice over, first in his Saviour, and then in Him"​

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Skandelon,
Your problem is that you don't understand what these calvinist writers are saying. If they believed that Christ was the propitiation for every single person that has ever been, then they would say so, and they don't. Moreover whatever you may say, If Christ were the propitiation for every single person, then God would be propitiated with regard to every single person, and Clearly He isn't. 'He who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him' John 3:36). Otherwise you would have to say that there is something defective in the propitiation made by Christ because it hasn't worked.

What Hodge et al are saying is that there is no lack in the propitiation made by Christ. No one will ever come to Him in repentance and faith and be told, "I'm sorry! You can't come in. There just isn't enough blood to go round!" All who come in that way will be saved (John 6:37). To quote Dabney, 'Christ's satisfaction is not a pecuniary equivalent, but only such a one as enables the Father, consistently with His attributes, to pardon, if in His mercy He sees fit.'

Now, what does 1John 2:2 mean? There are two possibilities consistent with other Scriptures.
1. The Lord Jesus, by His suffering and death, has propitiated God towards men and women 'Of all nations, tribes peoples and tongues' (Rev 7:9).

2. The Lord Jesus has propitiated God towards the world in which we live. It was cursed in Gen 3:15 (cf. also 5:29). The sacrifice of Noah in Gen 8:20f prefigured the suffering of Christ and so God promised not to estroy the earth. However, although the world is still subject to 'futility,' 'The creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God' (Rom 8:20-21. cf. vs 22-3). When Christ returns, not only will we receive new resurrection bodies, but so will the creation (2Peter 3:13 etc.). Then the curse on the earth will be no more (Rev 22:3).

Personally, I favour the second suggestion.

Steve

 

[JesusFan]

Skandelon,
Your problem is that you don't understand what these calvinist writers are saying. If they believed that Christ was the propitiation for every single person that has ever been, then they would say so, and they don't. Moreover whatever you may say, If Christ were the propitiation for every single person, then God would be propitiated with regard to every single person, and Clearly He isn't. 'He who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him' John 3:36). Otherwise you would have to say that there is something defective in the propitiation made by Christ because it hasn't worked.

What Hodge et al are saying is that there is no lack in the propitiation made by Christ. No one will ever come to Him in repentance and faith and be told, "I'm sorry! You can't come in. There just isn't enough blood to go round!" All who come in that way will be saved (John 6:37). To quote Dabney, 'Christ's satisfaction is not a pecuniary equivalent, but only such a one as enables the Father, consistently with His attributes, to pardon, if in His mercy He sees fit.'

Now, what does 1John 2:2 mean? There are two possibilities consistent with other Scriptures.
1. The Lord Jesus, by His suffering and death, has propitiated God towards men and women 'Of all nations, tribes peoples and tongues' (Rev 7:9).

2. The Lord Jesus has propitiated God towards the world in which we live. It was cursed in Gen 3:15 (cf. also 5:29). The sacrifice of Noah in Gen 8:20f prefigured the suffering of Christ and so God promised not to estroy the earth. However, although the world is still subject to 'futility,' 'The creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God' (Rom 8:20-21. cf. vs 22-3). When Christ returns, not only will we receive new resurrection bodies, but so will the creation (2Peter 3:13 etc.). Then the curse on the earth will be no more (Rev 22:3).

Personally, I favour the second suggestion.

Steve

Think that this all goes back to whatI posted before on this topic....
The Cross of Christ/atonement work of Jesus/His death had the worth to SAVE ALL AND ANY that would come to Him for salvation, its just that ONLY those whom are elected by God will come unto Him and be saved!