Please Explain the "I" in TULIP

[glfredrick]

Listen to the Calvinist rebutal:

"You come at it sideways"

"You address other issues like regeneration." Calvinism refers to irresisitible grace as quickening or "regeneration before faith."

"You never hit it on the head."

"I think you missed the mark by miles."

"You said too much."

"Your interpretations are very strained."

"Your views are not freely interpreted through context." Ah I was wondering when the magic context dust would be sprinkled over the response.

"You are going through any means to discredit." Implication, unchristian means.

"You do not understand Calvinism theology." Yet another oldie but dusty classic.

But spotted among the avalanche of off the shelf bluster was this piece of original work:

In Acts 16:14 you completely discredit Gods Spirit in opening Lydias heart to give it a more man-centric, effort, and merited flavor via religious practice. That is unscriptural to say the least. God opened her heart (Lydias) and I certainly wouldn't attempt to discredit that, ever, as you have done.

But this is what I actually said:

How did God “open her heart”? The answer from the text is that because she was a worshiper of God, having listened to God and learned from God through the words of the prophets and having accepted the One who sent Him, she had the prerequisite beliefs (i.e. belief in God’s promised Messiah) to accept Jesus. Simply put, if you reject God and His word, your heart will not be open to Jesus.

Now does this "discredit the Holy Spirit?" Nope How did Lydia learn of God? The work of the Holy Spirit!! Is this a man-centric view? Nope, it is a God-centric view, you must believe in the One who sent Jesus before you can believe in His Christ. The Father gave the Son. And without a belief in the Father, there can be no belief in the Son.

Thus a strawman argument, which again is all Calvinism has to offer.

No, because you do...

 

[preacher4truth]

No, because you do...

Note how Van initially gives the credit to Lydias works (v. God opening her heart) THEN attempts to later give back the credit to God. Unbelievable.

God and God alone opens hearts, and none of it is attributed to some pre-salvation worship, works, acts, deeds, nothing. This belief of his is increasingly more common, and is totally unscriptural. Sounds to me like a Robert Schullerism.

 

[kyredneck]

...about irresistible grace...

Irresistible, as in: made to jump for joy in your mother's womb (John the Baptist), made to hope while on your mother's breast (David), born after the Spirit by the time you are weaned (Isaac), made alive when you were dead (Lazarus).

 

[Aaron]

OK, I've not looked into "Irresistible Grace" much at all to my recollection. Contrary to assumption, I don't have a stack of reformed books.

Perhaps some who are more knowledgable about irresistible grace could expound upon:

1. What "Calvin" and calvinists meant/mean by this, and what it doesn't mean, or how it is miscontrued by non-cals and otherwise.

2. What is its extent.

3. Scriptural support/proof.

4. Passages that seem to refute this explained.

5. Other helpful thoughts and explanations on this.

- Peace

"Irresistible" grace is like "irresistible" conception. You had nothing whatever to do with your physical birth. It's the same with one's spiritual birth. It happens according to God's will and in God's time.

Scripture? "Ye must be born again."

 

[Van]

3) Yes, I say you challenge the Spirit here as the One who opened her heart. You equate Lydias heart being opened by God by equating it, and attributing it to her past religious works. This is exactly what you have done here. It's plainly seen in your response, as you attribute it (God opening her heart) to her worshipping God (works) not to the Spirit of God Himself, which is plainly what text teaches, He and He alone. It's not by works, it's by His Spirit alone. If you have a problem with that, and want to challenge His Spirit as the sole One who did this, then no one can help you.

Here is what I said:
How did God “open her heart”? The answer from the text is that because she was a worshiper of God, having listened to God and learned from God through the words of the prophets and having accepted the One who sent Him, she had the prerequisite beliefs (i.e. belief in God’s promised Messiah) to accept Jesus. Simply put, if you reject God and His word, your heart will not be open to Jesus.

[snip - please don't accuse others of lying, it is unnecessarily inflammatory] You did not say I challenged the Spirit, you said discredit the Spirit.

I did not address Lydia's "works" but her beliefs. Why not address what I actually said, [snip]?

We know that God opened her heart. That is not in dispute. Where we part company is in how God opened her heart. I base my view on the context and you base yours on reading your man made doctrine into the text.

 

[mandym]

I base my view on the context and you base yours on reading your man made doctrine into the text.

These kind of personal attacks only serve to create animosity. It does not make you correct, neither does it lend to your credibility.

 

[Crabtownboy]

It is a false belief first introduced by the Gnostics, picked up by St. Augustine when he was a Gnostic and he incorporated it into his belief system. Calvin was greatly influenced by Augustine and he brought it into his theology. Too bad that he did.

Oops, I misread the I as a T in the title of the thread ... was before I had my morning coffee. I can show the path on the "T". Should I start another thread?

 

[preacher4truth]

3) Yes, I say you challenge the Spirit here as the One who opened her heart. You equate Lydias heart being opened by God by equating it, and attributing it to her past religious works. This is exactly what you have done here. It's plainly seen in your response, as you attribute it (God opening her heart) to her worshipping God (works) not to the Spirit of God Himself, which is plainly what text teaches, He and He alone. It's not by works, it's by His Spirit alone. If you have a problem with that, and want to challenge His Spirit as the sole One who did this, then no one can help you.

Why lie? You did not say I challenged the Spirit, you said discredit the Spirit.

I did not address Lydia's "works" but her beliefs. Why not address what I actually said, why lie?

We know that God opened her heart. That is not in dispute. Where we part company is in how God opened her heart. I base my view on the context and you base yours on reading your man made doctrine into the text.

"Challenge" and "discredit" are synonymous. No need for the lie nonsense, no one is lying here. Care to keep the name calling out of it?

You base Lydias heart being opened due to her worship (works), and now change it to "beliefs?" Same difference. It's not that we've "parted" ways, I'm simply on a different path than you are and attribute all of the saving, opening of hearts, regeneration, all of it to God and He alone, not to any single thing man has done.

You are saying God opened her heart because of her works which is error.

 

[preacher4truth]

Oops, I misread the I as a T in the title of the thread ... was before I had my morning coffee. I can show the path on the "T". Should I start another thread?

No problem. Yes, perhaps another thread please? It's difficult enough to try to keep any thread on topic as it is. Thanks.

 

[preacher4truth]

Irresistible, as in: made to jump for joy in your mother's womb (John the Baptist), made to hope while on your mother's breast (David), born after the Spirit by the time you are weaned (Isaac), made alive when you were dead (Lazarus).

But see, you have some other foundational understandings of it (IG) that come into play before you look at your texts, where you see it at work.

Do you have any foundational or other helpful things to share on what IG is?

 

[kyredneck]

...Do you have any foundational or other helpful things to share on what IG is?

Yes, Jn 3:8: THE SPIRIT BLOWS WHERE HE WILLS, SO IT IS WITH EVERYONE BORN OF THE SPIRIT.

 

[glfredrick]

The interesting thing about IG is that most are not actually opposed to it, but rather see it as a failure because of God's timing, which is also irresistible and uncontrollable.

As the old saw goes, "God did not do it now, so God cannot do it at all." I find that concept coming up time and again in these discussions. Yet, when pressed hard, even those most adamant against God's sovereignty will admit that, yes, IF God did desire to enforce His will on someone, He could. So, in the end, for me at least, the issue is one of questioning God and God's motives, rather than some grand scriptural case that can be made that says that God is not actually sovereign.

 

[Van]

Here is your quote:
You base Lydias heart being opened due to her worship (works), and now change it to "beliefs?"

[personal attack deleted]. Here is my quote for the third time:

How did God “open her heart”? The answer from the text is that because she was a worshiper of God, having listened to God and learned from God through the words of the prophets and having accepted the One who sent Him, she had the prerequisite beliefs (i.e. belief in God’s promised Messiah) to accept Jesus. Simply put, if you reject God and His word, your heart will not be open to Jesus.

 

[Van]

Summary of thread: Irresistible Grace is one of the false doctrines of Calvinism. It has no support in scripture, but is supported by reading into vague passages the claimed doctrine. God opens a persons heart so that means by irresistible grace. God grants repentence so that means by irresistible grace. And on and on it goes.

 

[jbh28]

I think it may be helpful to define what you think Irresistible Grace is. And I say that for everyone before they continue on if they believe it is biblical or not.

 

[preacher4truth]

I think it may be helpful to define what you think Irresistible Grace is. And I say that for everyone before they continue on if they believe it is biblical or not.

Exactly. Thank you.

 

[Van]

John 3:8 does not read: THE SPIRIT BLOWS WHERE HE WILLS, SO IT IS WITH EVERYONE BORN OF THE SPIRIT.

Here is how it actually reads:8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” NASB

So it is easy to see how support is claimed where none exists. Even if the misrepresented version was an apt paraphrase, it still provides no support for the doctrine. The biblical truth is every believer is born of God. This is true whether you believe, with Calvinism, that in order to be a believer you must be born again, or whether you believe scripture which says God causes believers to be born again, John 1:12-13.

 

[preacher4truth]

Here is your quote:
You base Lydias heart being opened due to her worship (works), and now change it to "beliefs?"

[personal attack deleted]. Here is my quote for the third time:

How did God “open her heart”? The answer from the text is that because she was a worshiper of God, having listened to God and learned from God through the words of the prophets and having accepted the One who sent Him, she had the prerequisite beliefs (i.e. belief in God’s promised Messiah) to accept Jesus. Simply put, if you reject God and His word, your heart will not be open to Jesus.

You've addressed her worship, which is works, and allude to that as to why God opened her heart. You say "How did God open her heart?" And then tie that into because she was a worshiper which is works. God opened her heart all on His own will and purpose, not "because" she worshiped nor for any other reason.

Looks like a non-cal here has a fairly long leash in calling others liars. Totally unecessary.

 

[webdog]

Acts 7:51 "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

1 Thessalonians 5:19 "Do not quench the Spirit. "

Irresistible grace appears to be resistable.

 

[preacher4truth]

Acts 7:51 "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

1 Thessalonians 5:19 "Do not quench the Spirit. "

Irresistible grace appears to be resistable.

That's what I'm trying to get at.

It seems so, unless the entire title "irresistible grace" is just a bad title, or, those passages are then misunderstood and misused that you reference.