pledge of allegiance in church

[EdSutton]

Interestingly enough, the pledges to the two flags are said in my own church after we greet each other and welcome our visitors. (Did you get that?) The fact that our pastor is a chaplain for a reserve unit of sorts, and former military, probably led to the suggestion that this be done besides just on Fouth of July and Veteran's day, after 9/11. I may or may not totally agree, but would guess that I could find more valuable turf to fight over than this.
In His grace,
Ed

 

[bapmom]

It wouldn't be something Id voice a complaint over if we did it the same way Ed's church does.


We have many flags hanging in our auditorium though. I don't know why.........

 

[Joseph M. Smith]

Originally posted by bapmom:
It wouldn't be something Id voice a complaint over if we did it the same way Ed's church does.


We have many flags hanging in our auditorium though. I don't know why.........

Maybe your church is trying to pay attention to its global scope or its world missions concern. Here in Washington, DC, at the First Baptist Church of the City of Washington (yes, that's its name), they sometimes do a parade of flags from all the nations where Baptists are known to exist. Quite impressive.

I never gave much thought to the fact that our churches typically display the US and the Christian flags until I went to Britain, attended worship, and saw ... well, of course! .. the Union Jack and the Christian flag.

And then I got to thinking about the Hitler era in Germany and how the churches were forced to display the Nazi emblem .. I think I would just as soon see no reference to nationalism in the churches. The Kingdom of God transcends all national boundaries and allegiances.

 

[bapmom]

I think you are probably right, in that it shows we are a world-missions-minded church. At least that certainly is true of us.

 

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by Johnv:
Exactly, Marcia. The instructions of oath taking in Matt 5 is not an admonition of all oaths, only oaths "by" something. Scripture DOES NOT forbid the taking of oaths, pledges, etc. Eloidalmanutha's position is not in the scriptural context.

it's an issue of idolatry - pledging loyalty and devotion to a flag is idolatry - God said have no other gods before me.

God is a "global" God. He does not have "a" nation that does His will. No nation is His "favorite". His Kingdom is NOT of this world. To pledge allegiance to the flag of the USA is to say that the USA is your god, your protector, your salvation.

the word oath in Matt 5:33 is #3727 --- hordos which defined means:

1) that which has been pledged or promised with an oath

pledge = oath


*****************
http://www.answers.com/topic/oath

n., pl. oaths (ōTHz, ōths).

A solemn, formal declaration or promise to fulfill a pledge, often calling on God, a god, or a sacred object as witness.
The words or formula of such a declaration or promise.
Something declared or promised.
An irreverent or blasphemous use of the name of God or something held sacred.
An imprecation; a curse.

********************

http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/Term/66DA6058-6F77-46E3-BF79F34F972BF334/alpha/O/

oath

An attestation that one will tell the truth, or a promise to fulfill a pledge, often calling upon God as a witness. The best known oath is probably the witness’ pledge “to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth” during a legal proceeding. In another context, a public official usually takes an “oath of office” before assuming her position, in which she declares that she will faithfully perform her duties.

****************

Matt 5:33 ¶ Again, you have heard that it was said to the ancients: "You shall not swear falsely, but shall give your oaths to the Lord." Lev. 19:12; Num. 30:2
34 But I say to you, Do not swear at all, neither by Heaven, because it is God's throne; Isa. 66:1
35 nor by the earth, because it is the footstool of His feet; nor by Jerusalem, because it is the city of the great King. Isa. 66:1; Psa. 48:2
36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you are not able to make one hair white or black.
37 But let your word be Yes, yes; No, no. For the excess of these is from evil.

swear #3660 omnuo

1) to swear

2) to affirm, promise, threaten, with an oath

3) in swearing to call a person or thing as witness, to invoke, swear by

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by eloidalmanutha:
it's an issue of idolatry - pledging loyalty and devotion to a flag is idolatry - God said have no other gods before me.

That's a total perversion of the Commandment.

Making a promise is not idolatry (a pledge, btw, means making a promise). I can't think of a single person who worships the flag, or the country, who worships the flag or country.

 

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by eloidalmanutha:
it's an issue of idolatry - pledging loyalty and devotion to a flag is idolatry - God said have no other gods before me.

That's a total perversion of the Commandment.

Making a promise is not idolatry (a pledge, btw, means making a promise). I can't think of a single person who worships the flag, or the country, who worships the flag or country. </font>[/QUOTE]You are right, pledging allegiance is a total perversion of God's commandments.

I think you have rose colored glasses on -
or maybe they are red, white, and blue

 

[DeeJay]

Originally posted by RockRambler:
Please post a link showing where pledging allegiance to this country is a requirement for citizenship for a natural born citizen...I missed that in the Constitution. And since there was not pledge until 1892, then many of our forefathers were never citizens I assume under your understanding of citizenship.

Allegiance is like volunteerism...if it is mandated, then it is not of the heart.

I did not say pleging allegiance is a requirement for citizenship for a natural bor citizen

I said taking an oath of allegiance is a requirment to become a citizen of this country and I posted the link. If I stated otherwise, I mispoke. However if taking an oath of allegance is required to become a citizen then allegance to this country is assumed for those who are already citizens. Having allegance and saying the plege are two different things.

 

[DeeJay]

Eloidal
I believe that covenant promises of marriage are just that: promises. Funny, the judge never said a word about oaths . . . and I guess he would know

An oath is a promise. The wording you used to make that promise is called an oath. But if you prefer to ignore that fact so you can stand by your no oath stance, feel free.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath

"An oath (from Old Saxon eoth) is either a promise or a statement of fact calling upon something or someone that the oath maker considers sacred, usually a god, as a witness to the binding nature of the promise or the truth of the statement of fact. To swear is to take an oath."

 

[Bible Believing Bill]

Originally posted by eloidalmanutha:
Matt 22:15 ¶ Then going, the Pharisees took counsel so as they might trap Him in words.
16 And they sent to Him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Teacher, we know that You are true, and teach the way of God in truth, and it does not concern You about anyone, for You do not look to the face of men.
17 Then tell us, what do You think? Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?
18 But knowing their wickedness, Jesus said, Why do you test Me, hypocrites?
19 Show Me the tribute coin. And they brought a denarius to Him.
20 And He said to them, Whose image and inscription is this?
21 They said to Him, Caesar's. Then He said to them, Then give to Caesar the things of Caesar, and to God the things of God.
22 And hearing, they marveled. And leaving Him, they went away.

Context is taxes, money - no where does Jesus imply supporting or pledging allegiance to Caesar. I do not recall saying that we do not have to follow the laws of the land. [/QB]

Yes the context of this passage is taxes, but why would it not apply to other things required by Caesar? Taxes are required by law, then if we pay taxes we obey the law of land. If we obey one law we should be obeying all, except where it goes against the Bible.

Bill

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I say since our pennies, nickels, dimes, quarters and paper currency all have pictures of people that are long dead, why render to the living? LOL

It was Caesar's inscription on the penny, we have lincoln, jefferson, roosevelt, washington, kennedy, eisenhower, jackson, grant, and wilson to pay tribute to. lol

 

[tinytim]

Someone can pay tribute to me by sending me some benjamins!!!! lol

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by eloidalmanutha:
You are right, pledging allegiance is a total perversion of God's commandments.

You know very well wha I meant. You are perverting the Commandment by claiming that pledging or the taking of oaths is wrong.

I think you have rose colored glasses on - or maybe they are red, white, and blue

They must be yours. It would explain your obvious lack of scriptural understanding in this area.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by eloidalmanutha:
You are right, pledging allegiance is a total perversion of God's commandments.

You have never signed a contract? When you sign a contract you are pledging that you will fulfil the terms of the contract.

 

[HankD]

I have no problem saying the Pledge of Allegiance to my country anywhere.

In church I make it a prayer.

HankD

 

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by gb93433:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by eloidalmanutha:
You are right, pledging allegiance is a total perversion of God's commandments.

You have never signed a contract? When you sign a contract you are pledging that you will fulfil the terms of the contract. </font>[/QUOTE]signing a note or a contract is saying that you will fulfill the terms of an agreement.

an oath/pledge of allegiance is defined as giving your loyalty and dedicating your life to that country or organization above ALL, including God. This is why pledging allegiance to a flag/country/organization is idolatry - because you have given that flag/cty/org full authority. You have oathed your life to them. That is idolatry.

If you will notice that Jesus gave the specific example of "swearing by Jerusalem". This is in fact an oath or a pledge that Jerusalem is above all else - in higher estimation than God, according to Jesus. He said that if you swear or give an oath to anything other than a simple yes or no, you have done evil. It's not obscure, it's not hidden. It is the clear text, simple and to the point.

James 5:12 ¶ But before all things, my brothers, do not swear, neither by the heaven, nor by the earth, nor any other oath. But let your yes be yes, and the no, no, that you may not fall under judgment.

 

[HankD]

because you have given that flag/cty/org full authority. You have oathed your life to them. That is idolatry.

So say you:

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

"full authority" When the government goes to far in it's demands then : "We ought to obey God rather than men" and "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's".

Following your conception of a "vow" makes the institution of marriage idolatry which is initiated with "vows".

HankD

 

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by HankD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />because you have given that flag/cty/org full authority. You have oathed your life to them. That is idolatry.

So say you:

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

"full authority" When the government goes to far in it's demands then : "We ought to obey God rather than men" and "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's".

Following your conception of a "vow" makes the institution of marriage idolatry which is initiated with "vows".

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]* there is a difference between obeying the laws of the land and pledging an oath of allegiance - which means you would give your life for that government, godless as they all are. I never implied that we are not to obey the laws of the land.

* marriage is a covenant between your spouse and God. That "oath/vow/promise" is not pledging allegiance to them, but an agreement as God has ordained. Jesus is the head, the authority to which you have "pledged" the covenant.

* the subject is: OATH/PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE - not a covenant, or agreement, or contract, or marriage, or obeying the law of the land, or swearing to tell the truth in court. These are not the same things.

 

[HankD]

the subject is: OATH/PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE - not a covenant, or agreement, or contract, or marriage, or obeying the law of the land, or swearing to tell the truth in court. These are not the same things

I noticed you added the word OATH to the phrase "Pledge of Allegiance".

The word "oath" (or even the word "promise") does not appear in the Pledge of Allegiance which IMO is a simple verbalization that I affirm my loyalty to my country.

While hyper-patriotism I suppose could be over-done to the point of idolatry, IMO the act of a verbalization of loyalty to my country (which is odrdained of God) is not.

HankD

 

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by HankD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> the subject is: OATH/PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE - not a covenant, or agreement, or contract, or marriage, or obeying the law of the land, or swearing to tell the truth in court. These are not the same things

I noticed you added the word OATH to the phrase "Pledge of Allegiance".

The word "oath" (or even the word "promise") does not appear in the Pledge of Allegiance which IMO is a simple verbalization that I affirm my loyalty to my country.

While hyper-patriotism I suppose could be over-done to the point of idolatry, IMO the act of a verbalization of loyalty to my country (which is odrdained of God) is not.

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]You missed my earlier post:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Johnv:
Exactly, Marcia. The instructions of oath taking in Matt 5 is not an admonition of all oaths, only oaths "by" something. Scripture DOES NOT forbid the taking of oaths, pledges, etc. Eloidalmanutha's position is not in the scriptural context.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

it's an issue of idolatry - pledging loyalty and devotion to a flag is idolatry - God said have no other gods before me.

God is a "global" God. He does not have "a" nation that does His will. No nation is His "favorite". His Kingdom is NOT of this world. To pledge allegiance to the flag of the USA is to say that the USA is your god, your protector, your salvation.

the word oath in Matt 5:33 is #3727 --- hordos which defined means:

1) that which has been pledged or promised with an oath

pledge = oath


*****************
http://www.answers.com/topic/oath

n., pl. oaths (ōTHz, ōths).

A solemn, formal declaration or promise to fulfill a pledge, often calling on God, a god, or a sacred object as witness.
The words or formula of such a declaration or promise.
Something declared or promised.
An irreverent or blasphemous use of the name of God or something held sacred.
An imprecation; a curse.

********************

http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/Term/66DA6058-6F77-46E3-BF79F34F972BF334/alpha/O/

oath

An attestation that one will tell the truth, or a promise to fulfill a pledge, often calling upon God as a witness. The best known oath is probably the witness’ pledge “to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth” during a legal proceeding. In another context, a public official usually takes an “oath of office” before assuming her position, in which she declares that she will faithfully perform her duties.

****************

Matt 5:33 ¶ Again, you have heard that it was said to the ancients: "You shall not swear falsely, but shall give your oaths to the Lord." Lev. 19:12; Num. 30:2
34 But I say to you, Do not swear at all, neither by Heaven, because it is God's throne; Isa. 66:1
35 nor by the earth, because it is the footstool of His feet; nor by Jerusalem, because it is the city of the great King. Isa. 66:1; Psa. 48:2
36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you are not able to make one hair white or black.
37 But let your word be Yes, yes; No, no. For the excess of these is from evil.

swear #3660 omnuo

1) to swear

2) to affirm, promise, threaten, with an oath

3) in swearing to call a person or thing as witness, to invoke, swear by