Politics in Corporate Worship: What Would You Do?

[rsr]

... it's on a list of things that shouldn't be done (like honoring moms, honoring any human, really)

Now you've stopped preachin' and started meddlin'.

Seriously, I agree with your sentiments, at least generally. At least there is a biblical command to honor parents; I can find no injunction to pledge allegiance to any flag, nation or government. Too often, combining patriotism and worship conflates the two. If I had my druthers, I would not mix them, especially in a worship service.

Now, as a practical matter this can be really tricky, especially if you're in a community where patriotism displays flourish. Standing by your principles can be deeply offensive to those around you, and you should expect it to do so and not be surprised when it happens. Either it's important enough for you to take the heat, or it's not.

 

[KenH]

Now, as a practical matter this can be really tricky

Of course. Standing for principles quite often does.

 

[gb93433]

No. A funeral is not a worship service.

I would disagree. The funerals I have done have been some of greatest worship services that brought honor and glory to God. When you have over 100 people stand up one after another and testify of how God used the particular person in their life and how they are living for Jesus that is an incredible testimony of God's power and that person sold out for Jesus.

The man who got me started in business and the things of God in a deeper way was honored by about 1200 people who spoke for almost three hours of how God used him in their lives. The church only held about 600. That funeral changed my life. It was a tremendous point in my life to remember the power of God and to trust him for the rest of my life. That is worship.

 

[KenH]

I would disagree.

That's fine. We will just have agree to disagree.

Being a libertarian politically and an amillenialist eshatologically I am quite used to being an odd duck around a lot of Southern Baptists. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[tinytim]

No.

A funeral is not a worship service.

Have to disagree...

One of the best worship services I have ever been in was the funeral of a pastor I had when I was a teen.. Everyone was praising God for God's greatness.. Even the pastor's dad was on the on his feet, praising God for Salvation, and it turned into a Praise and Worship service! A funeral for a child of God SHOULD be worshipful... Another soldier returns home...

As for the OP... Pledging allegiance doesn't bother me.. We need to do it more.
After all, God gave us this country.. . Well, that was the general concensus up until the liberals took over in the 60s.. and now have corrupted America...

Ken, you tickle me.. you take a stand against the pledge, but support Obama...who supports abortion... seems you have your priorities mixed up! LOL

 

[Ruiz]

Every vacation bible school I have ever seen opens the day with a pledge to the American flag, a pledge to the Christian flag and a pledge to the Bible. Are you anti-pledge folks also opposed to this?

I am not anti-pledge. I am pro-pledge.

I just do not want to litter a great worship service by taking my focus of God and putting it on men. We have enough man-centered theology that we do not need man's government in the church too.

BTW, when you get to heaven and stand before God, will you stop and pledge allegiance to the flag? I won't, I hope to have perfected what I did in the worship service every week.

 

[Robert Snow]

A funeral is not a worship service. It is a tribute to a person who has died. In giving tribute, honoring this person's faith and trust in God is wonderful. Noting how this person worshiped God and was used to reach others is also a wonderful thing to mention and celebrate. However, the meeting is held to pay respect to a person, so regardless of how much this person was dedicated to God the service is not held strictly to honor God.

 

[tinytim]

Robert, the service I mentioned earlier started out NOT as a worship service to God.. but turned into one...

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Greetings, friends.

Here's the deal. In a recent thread, last month, I mentioned in passing that, as a matter of conscience, I had abstained from saying the pledge of allegiance in the middle of a corporate "worship" service at the church where I served as an interim music director.

I didn't cause a scene, didn't intentionally bring any attention to myself. I just briefly went behind the platform for a moment and then came back to the piano.

A fellow poster dissented with my opinion, saying the following:

I bet they are all so proud to have you serving as their minister of music being on such a higher spiritual plane than the rest of the congregation. I'm surprised that you would stoop so low as to serve people who would dare to say the Pledge of Allegiance in a church service. If they were on the same level as you they would know better. Shame on them for being so spiritually ignorant. Hopefully you taught them a lesson by your excellent example.

Honestly, if I served with a music minister who refused to participate based on arrogant misguided principals I would move for his dismissal.

Another poster who is no longer among us, in response, said:

As would I......

Here is my reasoning, which I stated at the time.

Did I say I was on a higher plane? No, I just disagree.

I don't think country worship has any place in the life of the believer, and it certainly doesn't need to be in church. If someone pledges allegiance outside of corporate worship, that is their choice and is an issue of conscience.

And I didn't do anything to stand out or prove a point. My actions were not to draw attention toward myself or done with an air of condescension.

I just am of the conviction that it is not appropriate to say the pledge, as my allegiance is elsewhere.

And doing it in corporate worship, I believe, is horrific.

Again, this in no way makes me arrogant. In fact, I did my best to not stick out. There is nothing misguided or arrogant about this belief, and if my conviction ever changes, I will change. This is just how I believe now.

Which one of us do you most agree with and why?

J,

Isn't it wonderful that you live in a country that protects your rights as a citizen under the 1st amendment?

 

[blackbird]

I think jaigner has a point. I have no problem saying the pledge of allegiance. There is an American flag on the platform at our church and on a few rare occasions we will say the pledge of allegiance. However, if someone doesn't want to say it, for whatever reason, that should be his privilege. I don't thing jaigner is saying the church ought to do away with this practice, but only that he shouldn't be forced to go along with it. After all, it is not a practice that God requires of us.

Here's my take on the matter

On or about the date July 4, 1776 a few good men got together and signed what is called The Declaration of Independance

Those signatures on that piece of paper gave me the right to do one of two things

1) It gave me the right to stand at attention---put my right hand over my chest and say a pledge of allegience---it gave me a right to do that

2) It gave me also the right NOT to pledge

If you want to pledge---well----pledge, then!!!

If you don't want to pledge----just stand there till its over

But if you take my job away from me if I do---or if you take my job away from me if I don't---------you may be without a doubt living in the land of the free and home of the brave---but you are also without a doubt the biggest Communist swine on this side of Joseph Stalin practicing your filth while at the same time hypocitically pledging allegience to something you know nothing about!!!!!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Do the Banksters down on Wall Street do the Pledge every morning?

 

[Bob Alkire]

A funeral is not a worship service.

I disagree with you. Every funeral service that I've ever been to has been an evangelical service. I don't recall a funeral service that I didn't see at lease a couple folks come to saving grace, accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior.

Most of the time after the first five minutes the service has left the details of the deceased person and went on with the message of salvation through Christ.

On the pledge, I've never been in a church that said the pledge, but if they did I would go along with them or if I felt like I couldn't I would resign or pull my letter and find another church. I was a member of a church for five years that woman didn't wear pants, my wife or I didn't agree with it but as long as we were members of that church she didn't wear pants. Why did we stay, to this day, one of the best church I've ever been a member of. But if my wife had not wanted to go along with it we would have left.

I was called to a church that preached out of the RSV only( at that time I was using the ASV 1901) I turned them down, I felt God couldn't be calling me there on that account.

 

[KenH]

Ken, you tickle me.. you take a stand against the pledge, but support Obama...who supports abortion... seems you have your priorities mixed up! LOL

1) I am only against "The Pledge" being done during a worship service directed to God.

2) If you have read my posts in the politics section during about the past year you would know that I have finally given up on both major parties and will only vote for candidates of the Libertarian Party or a few philosophically libertarian candidates in the two major parties such Congressman Ron Paul and U.S. Senatorial candidate Rand Paul. Candidates in the vein of such as George W. Bush and Barack Obama or Nancy Pelosi or John Boehner will not get my vote this year or any other year going forward.

 

[Pastor Larry]

The pledge should never be said in a church worship service (or church generally) for a number of reasons.

1. God, who knows what pleases him, has told us how to please him in worship, and pledging allegiance to a country is not something God said to do. It is sinful to presume that we know better how to worship God than God knows how to worship God.

2. The flag and patriotism is not about of the gospel. In the church, national boundaries are erased. There is no more Jew or Greek, Barbarian or Scythian, slave or free; we are all one in Christ. Therefore, the church must do nothing that highlights the very distinctions that Jesus died to erase.

3. The American flag is a stumblingblock to many for many different reasons. Those who are against "American imperialism" or those who who are natives of the countries that America is bombing and warring can be caused to stumble at the gospel over something that has nothing to do with the gospel. Can you imagine being a Pakistani immigrant who visits church for the first time and hears the pledge of allegiance to the American flag? What a shame.

4. The church is to preach the gospel alone. Nothing else. There is no room in the gospel for distinguishing the peoples that make up the church.

If I was in a church as a member where the pastor led the church in the pledge of allegiance, I would refuse to participate, and would be talking to him about it in no short order. This is not a matter of conscience; it is a matter of command.

 

[jaigner]

But if you take my job away from me if I do---or if you take my job away from me if I don't---------you may be without a doubt living in the land of the free and home of the brave---but you are also without a doubt the biggest Communist swine on this side of Joseph Stalin practicing your filth while at the same time hypocitically pledging allegience to something you know nothing about!!!!!

Wow. Communist swine. Nice.

I'm not sure I'd go that far. I just think it's petty, short-sighted and ignorant. Then again, many Baptist pastors are petty, short-sighted and ignorant.

So I guess it's par for the course.

 

[jaigner]

If I was in a church as a member where the pastor led the church in the pledge of allegiance, I would refuse to participate, and would be talking to him about it in no short order. This is not a matter of conscience; it is a matter of command.

Great response. Thank you.

I think it's important to remember that I'm specifically talking about the pledge in corporate worship. I'll be honest, I don't pledge at all anymore, but I'm not so bothered by it's presence in public school or other gatherings. I just feel it's completely inappropriate in corporate worship. In fact, it compromises corporate worship.

 

[RAdam]

Here's another reason not to pledge allegiance to the American flag in church:

Have you looked at American culture lately? Do you really think it honors God to pledge allegiance to a country that is so dishonoring to God, His Son, His word, and His commandments during a worship service supposed to be directed at Him?

Here's another thought: let's say this country begins physically persecuting Christians. They start torturing and killing us and our brethren in Christ. Are you still going to pledge allegiance to the flag of a country that does that in a worship service intended for God?

 

[sag38]

Communist Swine: I've been called a lot of things but this tops them all. Personally, I'd never lead the church to recite the Pledge during a church service (never have-never will). More so I was responding to the attitude of the poster.

 

[gb93433]

Have you looked at American culture lately? Do you really think it honors God to pledge allegiance to a country that is so dishonoring to God, His Son, His word, and His commandments during a worship service supposed to be directed at Him?

Here's another thought: let's say this country begins physically persecuting Christians. They start torturing and killing us and our brethren in Christ. Are you still going to pledge allegiance to the flag of a country that does that in a worship service intended for God?

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands: one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

How is saying the pledge worship to a flag?

Would you not take a stance for justice if you believed that there was not justice? That is in one of the Beatitudes, Mt. 5:9 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." It was the Christians in Germany who first supported Hitler.

I thank God for the men and women who protect my country and the freedoms I have to go within our country without fear and without being searched. If anyone has studied Pax Romana he would know that it is rather similar situation here in America. If America were threatened think of how many other nations would be threatened. If anyone has talked with some from particularother countries they would know that we have the freedoms to do much of what we want and to say what we want. That is not true in so many other countries. They would have their head chopped off.

Is anyone aware of what is going on in south Texas and Arizona. It looks like soon we may have war in our own land with some drug lords from Mexico.

 

[jaigner]

Communist Swine: I've been called a lot of things but this tops them all. Personally, I'd never lead the church to recite the Pledge during a church service (never have-never will). More so I was responding to the attitude of the poster.

What part of my attitude? The part that was inconspicuous about it? The part that is grieved that the church was doing this?

You, frankly, aren't in a position to judge my attitude.