Politics in Corporate Worship: What Would You Do?

[RAdam]

If you have a personal conviction, then abide by it, but I think it's judgmental to assume it's a sin for those who do incorporate the pledge into worship services. I've already stated that for me, the pledge inspires worship to God. It is not a sin for me to say the pledge during church service simply because someone else says it's wrong FOR THEM to do so. It's not a sin for me to honor mothers during worship on Mother's Day. If it's a sin for you, then don't do it.

I get tired of people trying to pin their own personal convictions on others and judging others as sinning based on their own opinion and interpretation of scripture.

A personal conviction does not give one authority to do something in a worship service directed at God.

 

[thegospelgeek]

If you want to be patriotic:

• Vote. Not just in large, general elections. Participate in the local elections and the primary processes.
• Stay in contact with your elected representatives on local and national levels. Be part of the solution where possible. Be a thorn when necessary.
• Find out about a young man/woman going through basic training (who may be 18 and away from home for the first time). Send them a card or letter of encouragement.
• Find out about a deployed soldier/seaman/airman. Provide specific support for their (and/or their young family's) needs. They don't have to be in a combat zone but could be on remote assignment in some other "garden spot".
• Other....

In short, being patriotic is like ministry. You have to get your hands a little dirty for it to be the real thing.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but as the father of two soldiers I can not say how much these things help those deployed. Both of my boys have recieved cards and packages from churches or Christians while in Iraq. My oldest just became a Christian and I can not help but think that those small tokens and the prayers of those who sent them played a role in his commitment (contrary to what many believe). My youngest is going on his second 13 month tour in September and I hope and pray that he gets more of this kind of support. It means so much to them.

 

[jaigner]

Personally I am convinced that most worship services in America are nothing more than songs among the dead to make them feel good and calling that coming into God's presence. start calling men and women to join you in reaching those in the community and see how many come. It is much the same as in Amos' day. I have done that and initially I got very few to join me. (When I started making disciples that changed and upset the power brokers). There are times when I have gotten rebellion in subtle and outward ways. Once I had a deacons start yelling at me in a deacon's meeting because I wanted to bring in someone to teach them how to witness to Mormons. He asked, "What are you trying to do? Stir up the community?" I told him, "Yes." They had a regular practice of inviting the Mormon bishop to come and teach about once a year.

Yes. Beyond that, worship is something that happens outside of the church building. Corporate worship is symbolic of the rest of one's life. I don't see that happening a lot, either.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Personally I am convinced that most worship services in America are nothing more than songs among the dead to make them feel good and calling that coming into God's presence.

Wow....what a statement. Sad commentary indeed but thanks for telling the truth.

Faith comes by hearing....:thumbs:

 

[Alcott]

A funeral is not a worship service. It is a tribute to a person who has died.

Then going by much of the reasoning on this thread, since funerals are not focused on God, but on someone besides God, they do not belong 'in church.' Correct? Furthermore, if we have a lifeless body there to look at, to admire, perhaps adore, to praise what 'it' once did... funerals, as usually done, are exercises in idolatry. But it appears most would still have funerals in church, but many would not have the P of A.

And since no scripture tells us to have funerals, in church or anywhere, are we sinning if we do anything besides dig the hole and throw it in, or burn it and get rid of the ashes?

 

[sag38]

I have never conducted a funeral service where I did not lead the congregation to worship. Whether some did or not is beside the point. Today I went to the funeral of man who displayed a life of serving Christ in everything he did. Many were impacted by his witness and ministry. We celebrated his life in which we laughed and cried. More importantly we sang great hymns of the faith, heard a sermon from Psalm 1, was comforted from John 14, and the gospel was presented uplifting Jesus as being the way, the truth, and the life. You can say what you want but at this funeral service there was indeed worship and in my heart there is still joy in knowing that I was in God's presence at this worship/funeral service.

As I think about it, I wonder if anyone would tell Isaiah that he wasn't at a worship service when he attended King Uzziah's funeral?

 

[TomVols]

As I think about it, I wonder if anyone would tell Isaiah that he wasn't at a worship service when he attended King Uzziah's funeral?

Passage? Just curious.

 

[NiteShift]

1) Several come to mind, (2) yes, those are among them though there are more, and (3) we can and should. All worship should edify believers.

But the point I am trying to make perhaps clumsily is that the God whom we are worshipping has told us how to worship when we gather for worship.

Let me try an analogy: You, as a wife, know what you like, what pleases you on your anniversary. Your husband, who wants to please you, should listen to you and believe you when you tell him what makes you happy on your anniversary. He should not go out on his own and say, "Well, playing golf makes me feel good, and therefore I will play golf to honor my wife on our anniversary." Why? Because his playing golf does not make you feel good (in the example). IT doesn't honor you.

When God has told us how to worship him, we don't have the right to consider what we think helps us to worship him. It's not our call. It is God's call.

And again, I would make the point that the distinct nature of the church is the absence of nationality. We should do nothing to send any other message. The pledge of allegiance divides the church because not all are American in the church, and we are asking people in the church to divide themselves on the basis of national allegiance rather than unify themselves on the basis of the gospel.

As a part of worship, absolutely right. It is a sin to sing Happy Birthday to someone as a part of the worship of God.

Now the church may, on some other occasion, do that, just as it may recite the Pledge of Allegiance on another occasion (whether that would be wise or not is another matter, and I think it to be manifestly unwise to practice any sort of national or political issue as a part of the church).

But the point in this discussion was about reciting the pledge during a worship service. And that's what I am talking about.

Well then you must think that God is offended by any type of announcement regarding activities after church or outside of church. Before television and the internet, church was where people not only learned about the Lord and sang praises, it was also where they found out who had died, who had been born, who needed help, who was having a get-together. I seriously doubt that God was offended by all that. Do we have a kind father in heaven or some stern tight-lipped taskmaster? As for the Pledge, ok then don't say it. Do you also think that our Lord is angry when we ask His blessing on our country? Is singing God bless America a sin? I'm sure some here would think so. God has blessed us greatly here. I think that thanking him for those blessings and asking his continued blessings on our country are pleasing to him.

"And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?"

 

[Pastor Larry]

Well then you must think that God is offended by any type of announcement regarding activities after church or outside of church.

As a part of worship, yes I think it is inappropriate. That's why we have all our announcements at the beginning and at the end, so that we don't interrupt worship in song and message with announcements. We have announcements, then we begin worship. We sing, pray, sing and take the offering, preach, pray, and sing. We do these things because God has commanded each one of them. We have the ordinances periodically as well, again, because God has commanded them. We do not do anything in worship that God has not commanded us to do.

However, these announcements generally do serve a body function in that they announce fellowship events, Bible study events, etc, all of which are legitimate biblically prescribed functions. The pledge of allegiance does not fit into any of those categories. BTW, the Pledge of Allegiance leads people to lie in church because we are not "one nation under God" with "liberty and justice for all." Many in our country are not under God, and they do not have liberty and justice. So we are in effect asking people to tell lies as a part of worship to God.

Do we have a kind father in heaven or some stern tight-lipped taskmaster?

Yes we do. He demands perfection, and everyone who doesn't have it goes to hell for eternity. It is far more austere than you can imagine. In fact, because of his perfect demands, he killed his own son. And he did that because of his perfection and our sinfulness. So he is a Father who is a stern tight-lipped taskmaster. He tells us what to do, and then he did it for us. And now he calls us to walk worthy of it.

Do you also think that our Lord is angry when we ask His blessing on our country?

No, that it a biblical command (1 Tim 2:1-2). Saying the Pledge of Allegiance is not.

Is singing God bless America a sin?

Not really, but it is inappropriate for gospel worship since it doesn't have anything to do with the gospel, and divides people on the national lines that Jesus died to erase.

God has blessed us greatly here. I think that thanking him for those blessings and asking his continued blessings on our country are pleasing to him.

I completely agree. In the Bible, these things are commanded as a part of worship -- to praise God for his mercy to us and to pray for continued mercy.

That is exactly my point: We do these things because God has commanded us to. He has told us that this pleases him. He has not said that about pledging allegiance to a political entity.

 

[sag38]

Quote:
As I think about it, I wonder if anyone would tell Isaiah that he wasn't at a worship service when he attended King Uzziah's funeral?
Passage? Just curious.

In Isaiah 6, Isaiah is attending the funeral of King Uzziah when he looks up and sees the pre-incarnate Christ.

 

[sag38]

SAG's Bible argument crashes and burns....

Actually, I stand corrected. Some assume that Isaiah was at Uzziah's funeral. Somewhere along the line that's what was what I read or was taught. However, the scripture doesn't say this directly. Isaiah simply states that in the year of Uzziah's death he saw the Lord..... It's an assumption to say he was Uzziah's funeral when he saw the Lord.

 

[Ruiz]

I ask and I want to ask again: Who here would, when meeting God, ask to say the pledge of Allegiance?

You come before the throne of God in all His awe and glory. In the midst of the splendor, you stand to give a pledge of allegiance to the flag.

I would find it rather inappropriate as I do of those who wish to pledge in the midst of a church service. Our service is as close to God's awe and glory we will experience this side of glory.

Personally, I believe those who wish to say the pledge in our church does not fully understand the Awe and Glory God shows forth in His Church.

 

[NiteShift]

As a part of worship, yes I think it is inappropriate. That's why we have all our announcements at the beginning and at the end, so that we don't interrupt worship in song and message with announcements.

You are hair-splitting PL. It is not as if a pledge of allegiance would be recited right in the middle of a sermon. It would be separate, just as all of your examples are. Though to be honest I have never seen the pledge recited in any church service.

Yes we do. He demands perfection, and everyone who doesn't have it goes to hell for eternity. It is far more austere than you can imagine. In fact, because of his perfect demands, he killed his own son. And he did that because of his perfection and our sinfulness. So he is a Father who is a stern tight-lipped taskmaster. He tells us what to do, and then he did it for us. And now he calls us to walk worthy of it.

Thank you for presenting the gospel to me. I am familiar with it and have been baptized in His name.

Not really, but it is inappropriate for gospel worship since it doesn't have anything to do with the gospel, and divides people on the national lines that Jesus died to erase.

Singing God Bless America is a prayer set to music. It is a request. Not inappropriate at all. But I will say that the Quakers agree with you, as well as Rev Wright.

 

[TomVols]

You are hair-splitting PL. It is not as if a pledge of allegiance would be recited right in the middle of a sermon. It would be separate, just as all of your examples are. Though to be honest I have never seen the pledge recited in any church service.

Apples and bowling pins. Churches do make a recitation of a pledge or singing of the national anthem (we haven't touched on that yet) as a component of worship. Larry's reference to announcements ABOUT ministry, etc., are an obvious distinction that's hard to miss unless one is intentionally overlooking it.

Singing God Bless America is a prayer set to music. It is a request.

That's another apple altogether :tongue3:

But I will say that the Quakers agree with you, as well as Rev Wright.

This appears to be ad hominem since you bring up Jeremiah Wright, who is coming from a far different place than Pastor Larry or I am. We come from a prescriptive stance that the Bible dictates the content of our worship. Wright believes our response to God is dictated by our cultural trappings or our cultural setting/situation. Come to think of it, he sounds just like.......

 

[NiteShift]

Churches do make a recitation of a pledge or singing of the national anthem (we haven't touched on that yet) as a component of worship.

So then what is the problem? Several have said that it has no place in the church and that is what the OP contended. So do you approve or disapprove of this component of worship?

This appears to be ad hominem since you bring up Jeremiah Wright, who is coming from a far different place than Pastor Larry or I am. We come from a prescriptive stance that the Bible dictates the content of our worship. Wright believes our response to God is dictated by our cultural trappings or our cultural setting/situation.

True, Rev. Wright is coming from a different place, in his case the land of hatred for white America. But he has arrived at the same destination. I only pointed that out.

Come to think of it, he sounds just like.......

Sounds just like me? And you think that I am arguing only on the basis of cultural trappings. Thanks for making me aware ...

Jesus wondered why the 9 cleansed lepers never came back to thank him for the gift that they had received. It would take an ungrateful wretch not to thank him for his blessings upon us and to ask that they continue, and we might even do this in church. I hope that doesn't run afoul of your prescriptive stance.

 

[Pastor Larry]

You are hair-splitting PL. It is not as if a pledge of allegiance would be recited right in the middle of a sermon. It would be separate, just as all of your examples are. Though to be honest I have never seen the pledge recited in any church service.

It's a pretty important hair. The worship service is more than just a sermon. It's the whole thing from music to prayer to preaching to offering.

Thank you for presenting the gospel to me. I am familiar with it and have been baptized in His name.

I wasn't doubting that. I was simply asking the question. But I wonder how many people wouldn't have recognized that as the gospel.

Singing God Bless America is a prayer set to music. It is a request. Not inappropriate at all. But I will say that the Quakers agree with you, as well as Rev Wright.

I doubt that either the Quakers or Wright agree with me.

 

[NiteShift]

I doubt that either the Quakers or Wright agree with me.

They would agree with the statement that singing God Bless America in church is inappropriate. Likely not much else though. No disrepect to you pastor.

 

[RAdam]

They would agree with the statement that singing God Bless America in church is inappropriate. Likely not much else though. No disrepect to you pastor.

Well, so what? So what if some group agrees with them? Why is that germaine to the discussion? Are the reasons for opposition the same? You didn't say. It seems to be a comment aimed at casting a certain light on your opposition.

Does saying the pledge of allegiance during a worship service honor God?

 

[Dale-c]

I just read this entire thread.

I must say that Pastor Larry is spot on.
I will not say much more that to say I agree with PL and that we also need to get over this silly notion that the US is somehow God's chosen people.
We are no more a special nation than Japan, England, Canada or China.

 

[J.D.]

I just read this entire thread.

I must say that Pastor Larry is spot on.
I will not say much more that to say I agree with PL and that we also need to get over this silly notion that the US is somehow God's chosen people.
We are no more a special nation than Japan, England, Canada or China.

I'll second that. And the next time the song leader tells us to open our hymn books to "Battle Hymn of the Republic", I may just get up and walk out!