Politics in Corporate Worship: What Would You Do?

[NiteShift]

Well, so what? So what if some group agrees with them? Why is that germaine to the discussion? Are the reasons for opposition the same? You didn't say. It seems to be a comment aimed at casting a certain light on your opposition.

You can take it any way you want RAdam. I explained myself to Pastor Larry

 

[NiteShift]

I just read this entire thread.

I must say that Pastor Larry is spot on.
I will not say much more that to say I agree with PL and that we also need to get over this silly notion that the US is somehow God's chosen people.
We are no more a special nation than Japan, England, Canada or China.

That's funny, I read through the whole thread and I didn't see anyone claim that the US is somehow God's chosen people.

 

[Salty]

That's funny, I read through the whole thread and I didn't see anyone claim that the US is somehow God's chosen people.

I think that is said like in the 8th verse of the Star Spangled Banner

 

[NiteShift]

I think that is said like in the 8th verse of the Star Spangled Banner

It is? Wait there is no 8th verse. You're funnin me Salty

 

[freeatlast]

Greetings, friends.

Here's the deal. In a recent thread, last month, I mentioned in passing that, as a matter of conscience, I had abstained from saying the pledge of allegiance in the middle of a corporate "worship" service at the church where I served as an interim music director.

I didn't cause a scene, didn't intentionally bring any attention to myself. I just briefly went behind the platform for a moment and then came back to the piano.

A fellow poster dissented with my opinion, saying the following:

I bet they are all so proud to have you serving as their minister of music being on such a higher spiritual plane than the rest of the congregation. I'm surprised that you would stoop so low as to serve people who would dare to say the Pledge of Allegiance in a church service. If they were on the same level as you they would know better. Shame on them for being so spiritually ignorant. Hopefully you taught them a lesson by your excellent example.

Honestly, if I served with a music minister who refused to participate based on arrogant misguided principals I would move for his dismissal.

Another poster who is no longer among us, in response, said:

As would I......

Here is my reasoning, which I stated at the time.

Did I say I was on a higher plane? No, I just disagree.

I don't think country worship has any place in the life of the believer, and it certainly doesn't need to be in church. If someone pledges allegiance outside of corporate worship, that is their choice and is an issue of conscience.

And I didn't do anything to stand out or prove a point. My actions were not to draw attention toward myself or done with an air of condescension.

I just am of the conviction that it is not appropriate to say the pledge, as my allegiance is elsewhere.

And doing it in corporate worship, I believe, is horrific.

Again, this in no way makes me arrogant. In fact, I did my best to not stick out. There is nothing misguided or arrogant about this belief, and if my conviction ever changes, I will change. This is just how I believe now.

Which one of us do you most agree with and why?

Hello jaigner. I commend you for your stance. As for me I NEVER say the pledge even outside of church since I believe it violates the command to swear not.(no oaths). :thumbs:

 

[Alcott]

Hello jaigner. I commend you for your stance. As for me I NEVER say the pledge even outside of church since I believe it violates the command to swear not.(no oaths).

I assume you know that the command of Jesus went even further, as he said, "Say 'yes, yes,' or 'no, no;' anything more than these comes of evil." So-- you don't pledge anything to anything/one. You must not sign anything like a "commitment card." You must not have a passport, since you must swear, or 'affirm,' your loyalty and defense of the constitution. Same for entering military service, plus an affirmation to obey the officers appointed over you. Certainly you made no "wedding vows." And, you never even joined Scouting.

Is all the above correct?

 

[freeatlast]

I assume you know that the command of Jesus went even further, as he said, "Say 'yes, yes,' or 'no, no;' anything more than these comes of evil." So-- you don't pledge anything to anything/one. You must not sign anything like a "commitment card." You must not have a passport, since you must swear, or 'affirm,' your loyalty and defense of the constitution. Same for entering military service, plus an affirmation to obey the officers appointed over you. Certainly you made no "wedding vows." And, you never even joined Scouting.

Is all the above correct?

You are correct. I would not join the military if I was required to make a pledge or swear allegiance. Making such a pledge does not cause it to happen. I would simply serve according to the Lord, not a constitution or I would not serve. I do not sign comment cards. I do not have a passport. I am single. I am not part of scouting. Like many today there is a wide spread effort to try and justify their disobedience to the Lord by trying to bring up scenarios where they claim one must disobey. However we never have to disobey. The Lord said if you love Me you will keep my commandments.
I assume you were refering to Matt 5:37. The context of the passage is dealing with being honest and not trying to exceed that with an oath. In other words having a pure heart. There ws a time when a man was as good as his word, however today I am afraid very few men have such a standard. :thumbs:

 

[Salty]

As for me I NEVER say the pledge even outside of church since I believe it violates the command to swear not.(no oaths). :thumbs:

So does that mean the Bible contradict itself? Even God said I swear...
Pledge is given 22 times
Even God gave an oath (oath 61 times)

Could be we need to take this verse in context.

Remember - we should never say "but I have always believed that" rather - what does the Bible teach - in context?

Remember - "and Judas went out and hanged himself" - "go thou and do likewise" is not quite in context

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Greetings, friends.

Here's the deal. In a recent thread, last month, I mentioned in passing that, as a matter of conscience, I had abstained from saying the pledge of allegiance in the middle of a corporate "worship" service at the church where I served as an interim music director.

I didn't cause a scene, didn't intentionally bring any attention to myself. I just briefly went behind the platform for a moment and then came back to the piano.

A fellow poster dissented with my opinion, saying the following:

I bet they are all so proud to have you serving as their minister of music being on such a higher spiritual plane than the rest of the congregation. I'm surprised that you would stoop so low as to serve people who would dare to say the Pledge of Allegiance in a church service. If they were on the same level as you they would know better. Shame on them for being so spiritually ignorant. Hopefully you taught them a lesson by your excellent example.

Honestly, if I served with a music minister who refused to participate based on arrogant misguided principals I would move for his dismissal.

Another poster who is no longer among us, in response, said:

As would I......

Here is my reasoning, which I stated at the time.

Did I say I was on a higher plane? No, I just disagree.

I don't think country worship has any place in the life of the believer, and it certainly doesn't need to be in church. If someone pledges allegiance outside of corporate worship, that is their choice and is an issue of conscience.

And I didn't do anything to stand out or prove a point. My actions were not to draw attention toward myself or done with an air of condescension.

I just am of the conviction that it is not appropriate to say the pledge, as my allegiance is elsewhere.

And doing it in corporate worship, I believe, is horrific.

Again, this in no way makes me arrogant. In fact, I did my best to not stick out. There is nothing misguided or arrogant about this belief, and if my conviction ever changes, I will change. This is just how I believe now.

Which one of us do you most agree with and why?

I would agree.

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=710612106

Listen to both parts. I think pastor weaver makes some very good points.

 

[freeatlast]

So does that mean the Bible contradict itself? Even God said I swear...
Pledge is given 22 times
Even God gave an oath (oath 61 times)

Could be we need to take this verse in context.

Remember - we should never say "but I have always believed that" rather - what does the Bible teach - in context?

Remember - "and Judas went out and hanged himself" - "go thou and do likewise" is not quite in context

Like I said the liberal church is always seeking ways to justify their sin. The bible never says we are to hang ourselves. Men twist scriptures by adding to them for their own use and self justification to over come conviction and live in disobedience. I have one Lord, not two. He alone receives my duty, not any pledge. For those who want to pledge to a flag, a statue or what ever else do so, but for me I make it to the Son of God and no one or nothing else. :thumbs:

 

[Salty]

Like I said the ...

It appears you took my post out of context - oh well

 

[freeatlast]

It appears you took my post out of context - oh well

My apologies. Please explain if you would? :tonofbricks:

 

[J.D.]

I would agree.

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=710612106

Listen to both parts. I think pastor weaver makes some very good points.

Pastor Weaver is good.

 

[NiteShift]

I would not join the military if I was required to make a pledge or swear allegiance. Making such a pledge does not cause it to happen. I would simply serve according to the Lord, not a constitution or I would not serve. I do not sign comment cards. I do not have a passport. I am single. I am not part of scouting. Like many today there is a wide spread effort to try and justify their disobedience to the Lord by trying to bring up scenarios where they claim one must disobey. However we never have to disobey. The Lord said if you love Me you will keep my commandments.
I assume you were refering to Matt 5:37. The context of the passage is dealing with being honest and not trying to exceed that with an oath. In other words having a pure heart. There ws a time when a man was as good as his word, however today I am afraid very few men have such a standard. :thumbs:

Was not Paul making an oath when he said, "I call God as my witness—and I stake my life on it—that it was in order to spare you that I did not return to Corinth." - 2 Co. 1:23

 

[freeatlast]

Was not Paul making an oath when he said, "I call God as my witness—and I stake my life on it—that it was in order to spare you that I did not return to Corinth." - 2 Co. 1:23

In the passage you gave Paul is not invoking an oath. He is simply calling God as a witness to what he (Paul) had already done. He is not swearing an oath to someone or something other then God.

To make a pledge of allegiance to a flag one is making a pledge that they are now required to carry out without conditions. The person in essence has made a vow to disregard God's calling, and commands, and place the flag above Him. We are warned not to make pledges/vows and then not keep them. You cannot have two masters. I choose to not make the pledge/vow and have just one Master. The falg/country will receive my support as long as it does not violate the word of God. However in those times when it does I have comitted no dishonor to the Lord by making a pledge that I cannot/will not keep. :thumbs:

 

[NiteShift]

In the passage you gave Paul is not invoking an oath. He is simply calling God as a witness to what he (Paul) had already done. He is not swearing an oath to someone or something other then God.

To make a pledge of allegiance to a flag one is making a pledge that they are now required to carry out without conditions. The person in essence has made a vow to disregard God's calling, and commands, and place the flag above Him. We are warned not to make pledges/vows and then not keep them. You cannot have two masters. I choose to not make the pledge/vow and have just one Master. The falg/country will receive my support as long as it does not violate the word of God. However in those times when it does I have comitted no dishonor to the Lord by making a pledge that I cannot/will not keep. :thumbs:

Really? Paul's words sound alot like swearing and affirming. In fact they sound exactly like that. At any rate his words are considerably more than just a yea or nay. Could it be that Paul realized Jesus only meant that we shouldn't swear falsely, and that a commitment is meant to be kept?

I would not join the military if I was required to make a pledge or swear allegiance.

I'll inform the army of your position on this. They'll be very disappointed, but may carry on after some fashion.

 

[freeatlast]

Really? Paul's words sound alot like swearing and affirming. In fact they sound exactly like that. At any rate his words are considerably more than just a yea or nay. Could it be that Paul realized Jesus only meant that we shouldn't swear falsely, and that a commitment is meant to be kept?



I'll inform the army of your position on this. They'll be very disappointed, but may carry on after some fashion.

I think that the Lord would have said that if that is what He meant. Adding to scripture is a very dangerous practice.:thumbs: