5 point Gillinist
Active Member
I never said they did, I said all are without excuse due to general revelation. But If one seeks after God, it is presupposed that God has done a drawing work in their heart.
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Poll: “Many are saved having never heard the gospel”?
- Thread starter canadyjd
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I never said they did, I said all are without excuse due to general revelation. But If one seeks after God, it is presupposed that God has done a drawing work in their heart.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I understand what you are saying, and yet it seems to be OK to make any number of comments about me on this board. Some childish, some disrespectful, some false accusations but I just consider where that come form.
How many times do I need to say it is not another gospel it is just letting God be God. They want to claim God is sovereign but then say that He can not really be sovereign if He does not save people the way they say He has to. This might come as a surprise to Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham and lets not forget David, Isaiah, Ezekiel or any of the other OT prophets.
Psa 145:18 The LORD is near to all who call upon Him, To all who call upon Him in truth.
Psa 145:19 He will fulfill the desire of those who fear Him; He also will hear their cry and save them.
If they want to limit Gods' sovereignty that is up to them but I do not. That is the sticking point and I doubt that it will be crossed.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I agree it is hard being the youngest in a large family. If I caused offense then please accept my apology.
We are not going to agree on this or I suspect a number of other things but we are still brothers in Christ.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I believe that the drawing work of the Holy Spirit is the convicting people of their sinful nature.
unprofitable
Active Member
Ps 9:16 says, " The Lord is known by the judgment which he executeth." His judgments, statutes, and precepts of the kingdom are contained in the righteous law called the New Covenant,
The Father revealed to Peter, through that covenant given and guaranteed by the blood by Christ, Acts 4:12 that "Neither is salvation in any other; for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."
The Father limits himself by his covenant, This in no way limits his sovereignty but the covenant reveals that by which he will accomplish his will for his people and the way they are to walk. As Heb 8:5 says when the Father gave commandment unto Moses, "See saith he that thou make ALL things according to the pattern shown thee in the mount." We are to build according to that covenant pattern given unto us by the Father. This is also why we are not to add to nor take away from the scriptures (covenant). When the foundation is wrong then the whole building ends up being wrong.
The Father is not a double minded man. (James 1:8) James further brings out in the 17th verse that with the Father of lights, "...with whom is no variableness nor shadow of turning." Acts 4:12 lays a foundational truth by which we know the means of salvation. Ps 11:3 says, "If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?" Therefore he DOES NOT declare the name by which man can be saved then change that foundational truth. He DOES NOT say to one group, "I will bring you in by the gospel of Christ" then to another group "I will bring you in by some back door." That line of interpretation attempts to rob Christ of his glory under a false understanding of the sovereignty of God. Christ says in Jn 14:6, "I am the way" or the pattern and therefore prevents, by self limiting salvation to himself, any other way to the Father.
I would not give you ten cents for all the claims of people being saved by bibles falling out of airplanes or tracts being found on the ground. Paul says in Romans 10:14, "How then shall they call on whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe on whom they have not heard, and HOW SHALL THEY HEAR WITHOUT A PREACHER? The Ethiopian treasurer witnesseth the same. His reply when Phillip asked him if he understood what he was reading, "How can I except some man should guide me?"
As with the Ethiopian treasurer, the Lord sent deliverers to old covenant Israel, even when they were scattered under every nation under heaven. The pattern has not changed. When the Lord is ready to deliver his people, he will provide them with a witness who will tell them of the Deliverer. This is the sovereignty of God.
The Father revealed to Peter, through that covenant given and guaranteed by the blood by Christ, Acts 4:12 that "Neither is salvation in any other; for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."
The Father limits himself by his covenant, This in no way limits his sovereignty but the covenant reveals that by which he will accomplish his will for his people and the way they are to walk. As Heb 8:5 says when the Father gave commandment unto Moses, "See saith he that thou make ALL things according to the pattern shown thee in the mount." We are to build according to that covenant pattern given unto us by the Father. This is also why we are not to add to nor take away from the scriptures (covenant). When the foundation is wrong then the whole building ends up being wrong.
The Father is not a double minded man. (James 1:8) James further brings out in the 17th verse that with the Father of lights, "...with whom is no variableness nor shadow of turning." Acts 4:12 lays a foundational truth by which we know the means of salvation. Ps 11:3 says, "If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?" Therefore he DOES NOT declare the name by which man can be saved then change that foundational truth. He DOES NOT say to one group, "I will bring you in by the gospel of Christ" then to another group "I will bring you in by some back door." That line of interpretation attempts to rob Christ of his glory under a false understanding of the sovereignty of God. Christ says in Jn 14:6, "I am the way" or the pattern and therefore prevents, by self limiting salvation to himself, any other way to the Father.
I would not give you ten cents for all the claims of people being saved by bibles falling out of airplanes or tracts being found on the ground. Paul says in Romans 10:14, "How then shall they call on whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe on whom they have not heard, and HOW SHALL THEY HEAR WITHOUT A PREACHER? The Ethiopian treasurer witnesseth the same. His reply when Phillip asked him if he understood what he was reading, "How can I except some man should guide me?"
As with the Ethiopian treasurer, the Lord sent deliverers to old covenant Israel, even when they were scattered under every nation under heaven. The pattern has not changed. When the Lord is ready to deliver his people, he will provide them with a witness who will tell them of the Deliverer. This is the sovereignty of God.
all of us need to find a way to discuss these things without resorting to false accusations. You can always ignore those posts. You do not have to respond. I do it every day.
It is true they were not saved outside of Christ, however, they died not placing faith in the Risen Savior.
There is a difference between the understanding given Abraham when he heard the veiled Gospel ...
Galatians 3:8
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
... and the revealed Gospel you and I, and everyone from the day of Pentecost forward hear: that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, has died in our stead that we might be saved.
The Gospel was kept a mystery until Pentecost, and is given in understanding to men in this Age through the Ministry of the Comforter. Eternal Redemption was retroactive for Old Testament saints, whereas it is instantaneous for us.
While it is a popular Reformed teaching that men were regenerated in the Old Testament that they might have faith and thus be saved, the simple truth is that no man was born again until men began to receive the life of Christ through the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.
No man was reconciled to God prior to the Cross.
No man was eternally indwelt by God prior to Pentecost.
There is a significant difference between this Age and all those that came before. And one of the greatest differences is that now the Gospel is revealed to men:
Romans 16:25-26 KJV
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
God bless
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
The idiotic nature of this post is astounding.
Their faith was in the Promised One.
Hebrews 11:1-2,13-16
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old received their commendation.
These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.
If this is all, then there is no hope. All there is, is a despair that the human is dead in their sins. Undone, with no hope of finding peace.
What is needed is a hope for forgiveness. God tells us there is no other name, but Yeshua, Jesus, God the Son, by which one can be saved. It is very particular and specific. People cannot know that hope merely through observing nature. All the observation of nature does is to show us that there is a God who created. There is in that observation no hope of reconciliation...which is why men create idols and nature to worship. They cannot get to God on their own.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I agree and I do
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
FYI I am not a calvinist. Now as to those, the OT saints, I maintain that they were saved by God and I think that Enoch makes a good case for that view. Just as I disagree with calvinism and will continue to do so those that disagree with my view on this will continue to do so. Just as the thief on the cross was told by Christ Jesus that he would be in paradise that day, in other words saved, I feel that the OT saints were in paradise. Were they saved as in knowing the risen Christ, NO but I believe that during the time Christ was in the grave He went and took them to heaven. They came to know the messiah that they had been looking forward to.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
By trusting in the living God the creator. While Rom 1:18-19 tells how bad man can be Rom 1:20 tells us that man can know God through His creation. And as this psalm tells us
Psa 145:18 The LORD is near to all who call upon Him, To all who call upon Him in truth.
Psa 145:19 He will fulfill the desire of those who fear Him; He also will hear their cry and save them.
those that actually call out to Him He will hear. What it comes down to for me is that God is a God of love and as we are told in 1Ti 2:3-4 He desires all to be saved, not just those that were fortunate enough to hear the gospel message. God judges by the heart not by the words someone says. Mat_7:22-23
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Well do you deny that you limit what God can do? Just look at your own DoG and compare it to what the bible says.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Thank you for clarifying. I understand now your point and agree.
peace to you
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Yes I deny that I limit what God can do. That's a strawman argument.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You have just proven my point. I made this comment in post # 18
"You actually amaze me at times, actually most calvinists do that. Your the ones that trumpet that God is sovereign then turn around and say well only so much. He is not allowed to do anything that does not fit with my theology. So much for your sovereign god."
To which I received this comment
The idiotic nature of this post is astounding.#69 Reformed1689,
So you have just proven my point. You do not trust that the living God could actually save someone that calls out to God even though they have not heard the gospel. But at the same time you believe that God has to give people faith after they are saved so they will believe.
You keep presenting you r narrow view, just because people made idols does not mean they could never call out to God and I am quite sure that if they did God would hear them. Do you not believe that?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Then I would have to conclude that you no longer agree with the DoG. as they do limit God.
Only those that are included in the Unconditional Election will partake of the Limited Atonement and will be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace. So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God.
That is not what God says is it
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."
Your DoG denies both of these, the gospel call in calvinism is not a well meant call or sincere offer. Calvinist theology has made the good faith offer of salvation moot. If, according to Calvinism, you are not part of this select group then you are doomed for the start.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I understand the context of Galatians. Paul was specially addressing Jews that had come into the church and were attempting to convince Christians they had to keep the OT law, especially circumcision.
But his language in the condemnation was much broader. He says “any other gospel” but the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
Since your belief that “many are saved having never heard the gospel” deliberately removes Jesus Christ and Him crucified from the gospel, it is a different gospel, whether you understand that or not.
Now, addressing the sovereignty of God one last time. I do not “struggle” with God’s sovereignty. I accept and embrace it.
I also believe that God has revealed to us in His word the means by which He brings people to salvation. That is the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
Your belief “many are saved having never heard the gospel” directly contradicts scripture and puts God in conflict with Himself.
It diminishes the sacrifice of our Lord. It diminishes His name, His glory, His position at the right hand of the Father as the one and only means of salvation for God’s children.
Peace to you
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