Master doesn't prove total inability
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Poll: “Many are saved having never heard the gospel”?
- Thread starter canadyjd
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Master doesn't prove total inability
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Do you think God can do as He pleases?
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Yes, but we are also told that the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins so while we may be spiritually dead that does not mean that we can not think and respond to that conviction. Why do you avoid the texts that do not fit with your theology?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Why do you continue to refuse to deal with the scripture I gave you?
So show us how they can both be true.
How do you square DoG {Only those that are included in the Unconditional Election will partake of the Limited Atonement and will be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace.} with, God who desires all to be saved and whoever calls on Him will be saved.
That is not a strawman question but it is one you will not answer.
I have given you this three times now and still no answer. Why is that?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
No answer?
God must keep his word and not go against what he has said. God does what He says, which means he has no pleasure in the things you want him to do when his word goes against yours.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So if God desires that all be saved then that is what He wants to happen, correct? And if He says that if you confess faith in Him then you will be saved, correct? So if you agree with that then why do you not just say that? As I have said and now by your comments it would seem you agree with.
That 1Ti 2:3-4 & Rom 10:13 contradicts what the DoG says and since we should trust what the bible says then that would mean that the DoG is wrong and should be discarded.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Well, the point of Paul using the analogy of slavery in Romans was to show a person’s will is enslaved to sin and then points to Jesus as delivering them, freeing them, from that sin.
He really didn’t go into detail on how that happens in Romans 7, but it does appear the person is unable to do good and instead is forced to engage in sin, even if there is some sort of desire to do good.
That does appear to support “inability” until they are “delivered” or freed by Christ.
peace to you
So what you are telling me is that a lost person never does anything that is good ever?
Surely you dont believe that
you are correct. Total Depravity means all of our being has been corrupted not that we are as bad as we can be. Seemingly, even Hitler and Stalin.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
No, I don’t believe that, but the word “good” is relative. Paul tells us our good works are as filthy rags to God. So, even when we think we are doing “good” apart from God, and others may applaud our good works apart from God, we are still falling short, missing the mark, which is what the word “sin” means.
“Inability” doesn’t mean we cannot chose to be decent people, according to cultural norms. We can obey laws, be good citizens, volunteer to help people and so on. Atheist do that all the time.
Inability only refers to, imo, coming to a saving knowledge of Christ and Him crucified without the direct intervention of God Holy Spirit to free the person’s will from its enslavement to sin.
At least, that’s my understanding of what scripture teaches.
peace to you
Man can do "good" things in the eyes of others. And as mentioned, are not as outwardly evil as we could be. Man does charitable deeds (whatever motivates this altruism). Even moderators and admin here on the BB.
But in the eyes of God? Even our BEST, in our opinion the MOST righteous works, are considered filth to God. Sin corrupts us and taints everything we are and do with its evil. In God's judgment man can do nothing to please God and it takes divine intervention that will allow such a hell-deserving character to even repent (a "good" thing that we cannot do) and believe the Gospel (another "good" thing we cannot do)
God demands perfection and, of course, all but a few BB members fall short of that. We all know your names.
But in the eyes of God? Even our BEST, in our opinion the MOST righteous works, are considered filth to God. Sin corrupts us and taints everything we are and do with its evil. In God's judgment man can do nothing to please God and it takes divine intervention that will allow such a hell-deserving character to even repent (a "good" thing that we cannot do) and believe the Gospel (another "good" thing we cannot do)
God demands perfection and, of course, all but a few BB members fall short of that. We all know your names.
you brought up good so i responded to your statement.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
You are correct. I should have more precise in my language. Thanks for catching that.
In Romans 7, Paul speaks of the OT Law as being “good”, and being unable to do “good”; that is keep the Law. It was not possible because the will is enslaved to sin.
peace to you
So your position is that the unregenerate can only sin in every single action they make?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Well, sin is “falling short” or “missing the mark” and it is God who makes the judgment of what falls short of His expectations. Scripture tells us our good works are as filthy rags to God. Also, scripture tells us that it is impossible to please God without faith.
So, to answer your question directly, yes, but I wouldn’t limit it to the unregenerate. Even Christians can fall short in what they do.
Based on Ephesians, God has created good works for us as Christians to walk in. So, anytime we as Christians fail to walk in the good works God has prepared for, we are sinning.
Peace to you
unprofitable
Active Member
Darrel C asked how were men saved while the gospel of Christ remained a mystery.
The salvation and sacrifice of Christ was known in the garden represented in the sacrifice of the lamb. The Lord instructed Adam and Eve, that while it was types and shadows, it represented Christ and his work.
1 Peter 1:8, "Who having not seen, ye love, in whom now, though you see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory. This was experienced by Adam and Eve and all the OT saints.
vs 9, Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls
vs 10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come to you.
vs 11 Searching what or what matter of time THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST WHICH WAS IN THEM (to be IN Christ) did signify , when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow
vs 12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you BY THEM that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
How can prophets be a witness and prophesy of grace if they did not know nor understand it? The above verses speak clearly that the spirit of Christ (therefore his life) was in the OT saints therefore so was the faith of the gospel.
The OT saints knew that the law was types and shadows and that OT covenant Israel as a kingdom represented more on a higher spiritual level
Christ and John the Baptist (OT saint-see vs 10) came preaching the kingdom of God.
Bro Mitchell has already made a very effective point. I will add what was also hidden was the form of the New Covenant kingdom represented by the church, locally, literally and visibly.
May the Lord guide us in all truth by his Holy Spirit sent/given to us (the body of Christ) by our Lord and Savior
The salvation and sacrifice of Christ was known in the garden represented in the sacrifice of the lamb. The Lord instructed Adam and Eve, that while it was types and shadows, it represented Christ and his work.
1 Peter 1:8, "Who having not seen, ye love, in whom now, though you see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory. This was experienced by Adam and Eve and all the OT saints.
vs 9, Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls
vs 10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come to you.
vs 11 Searching what or what matter of time THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST WHICH WAS IN THEM (to be IN Christ) did signify , when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow
vs 12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you BY THEM that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
How can prophets be a witness and prophesy of grace if they did not know nor understand it? The above verses speak clearly that the spirit of Christ (therefore his life) was in the OT saints therefore so was the faith of the gospel.
The OT saints knew that the law was types and shadows and that OT covenant Israel as a kingdom represented more on a higher spiritual level
Christ and John the Baptist (OT saint-see vs 10) came preaching the kingdom of God.
Bro Mitchell has already made a very effective point. I will add what was also hidden was the form of the New Covenant kingdom represented by the church, locally, literally and visibly.
May the Lord guide us in all truth by his Holy Spirit sent/given to us (the body of Christ) by our Lord and Savior
unprofitable
Active Member
Rom 10:14 "HOW THEN SHALL THEY CALL on him in whom they have not believed? And HOW SHALL THEY BELIEVE on him of whom THEY HAVE NOT HEARD? And HOW SHALL THEY HEAR without a preacher
How is the Lord near to those who have not heard since to hear of him is necessary to be able to call upon him?
The gentiles regularly called upon their false gods. How could they know they were calliing upon the only true God (Jn 17:3)
without the knowledge that only Christ could reveal:
Christ said no man cometh unto the Father but by the son. We can easily say that no man can call upon the Father but by (the knowledge) of the son.
How can they call upon him in truth if THEY HAVE NOT HEARD of him who declared he was the truth and the true knowledge of the Father?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I have dealt with this before but I will copy a response here for you
By trusting in the living God the creator. While Rom 1:18-19 tells how bad man can be Rom 1:20 tells us that man can know God through His creation. And as this psalm tells us
Psa 145:18 The LORD is near to all who call upon Him, To all who call upon Him in truth.
Psa 145:19 He will fulfill the desire of those who fear Him; He also will hear their cry and save them.
Those that actually call out to Him He will hear. What it comes down to for me is that God is a God of love and as we are told in 1Ti 2:3-4 He desires all to be saved, not just those that were fortunate enough to hear the gospel message. God judges by the heart not by the words someone says. Mat_7:22-23
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