I was on the mission field some time ago in a third world country, where there were many coming to know the Lord. We had both evangelistic meetings and met many of the people in their homes. As we went to peoples' homes, a Catholic priest followed from a distance, going to those same homes bribing those families to come back to the RCC--a hellish religion of works that leads people to hell. It knows not the gospel of Jesus Christ but teaches that works saves.We disagree over things. But I also disagree with some of my evangelical and Protestant brethren. I guess I can't just cut off a huge sector of Christians as fellow believers.
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Pope Benedict to Resign at End of Month
- Thread starter Zaac
- Start date
Zaac
Well-Known Member
I'll have to go back and check but I'm not sure if anyone has denied that there are saved Catholics. But there are no Catholics or anything else who have been saved practicing a salvation by works theology.
I still don't think anyone said that.
Are they saved?
One of curious things is that almost all Roman Catholics can articulate and agree with the Apostles' Creed which underlies our mutual Christian faith. If no other device exists I can't think of a single thing in there that a biblical Baptist could disagree with. So if we begin with (a) charity and (b) a common confession (obviously they call it a creed but I don't) why not anticipate we might have more in common with them than we realize.
I've been leading ecumenical and inter-faith dialogues for years. I don't agree with everything my friends from other perspectives say but I can respect them. While my Muslim friends believe that Jesus was never crucified and that it was Ishmael and not Isaac who would have been sacrificed I can disagree, I can even point out that in their system there is no hope of salvation. Yet I can also be respectful.
Catholicism (Roman or Eastern) is a part of Christianity. Honestly, in some areas of the world all we have are Catholics or Catholic missions. When I've been out in the mission field I've found multiple times that I've partnered with Roman Catholics who are also bringing the Gospel to people.
We disagree over things. But I also disagree with some of my evangelical and Protestant brethren. I guess I can't just cut off a huge sector of Christians as fellow believers.
You don't have to worry about cutting off what God has not grafted in. Catholicism as taught from the doctrine sent out by the Pope IS NOT Christian no matter how ecumenically we want it to be so.
The Catholic Church believes itself to be on par with God's word and thus the false teaching abounds.
They teach that there are intermediaries other than Christ.
And what does the Catholic Church teach about how one is saved?
Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
You Are Right...
I know this never goes over well in this forum because we try so hard (and we should as long as we don't do so AT THE EXPENSE of true or the Word of God)) to not deliberately offend anyone....BUT....Zaac, you and DHK are right about this matter....and brother preachinjesus is just plain old wrong. If you ask these people what they REALLY believe most of them probably can't tell you much other than what they may have heard from their priest (so-called). If you ask them what kind of actual "authority" the pope has on earth as opposed to the authority of the Word of God or what they believe about Mary or what their "mass" is all about, then their answers OUGHT to give anyone with Biblical discernment enough information to know that these dear people, though sincere, are NOT truly saved OR true Bible Believers. Enough said for now.
Bro.Greg:saint:
I know this never goes over well in this forum because we try so hard (and we should as long as we don't do so AT THE EXPENSE of true or the Word of God)) to not deliberately offend anyone....BUT....Zaac, you and DHK are right about this matter....and brother preachinjesus is just plain old wrong. If you ask these people what they REALLY believe most of them probably can't tell you much other than what they may have heard from their priest (so-called). If you ask them what kind of actual "authority" the pope has on earth as opposed to the authority of the Word of God or what they believe about Mary or what their "mass" is all about, then their answers OUGHT to give anyone with Biblical discernment enough information to know that these dear people, though sincere, are NOT truly saved OR true Bible Believers. Enough said for now.
Bro.Greg:saint:
Well the night is late and I'm more than a bit tired...suffice to this and I'll return later:
I think a lot of us have received a picture if Catholicism which differs from what Catholicism actually is and believes. So this is my challenge...go and find a local Roman Catholic priest, make friends with him (he is a human being after all) and ask him to define Catholic theology. Ask him what it means to be saved for a Catholic. Ask him about their view of faith and works. Ask him about their view of the Person and work of Jesus Christ. Ask him to tell you about how sacraments function soteriologically. Ask him these questions.
That is my challenge.
I think a lot of us have received a picture if Catholicism which differs from what Catholicism actually is and believes. So this is my challenge...go and find a local Roman Catholic priest, make friends with him (he is a human being after all) and ask him to define Catholic theology. Ask him what it means to be saved for a Catholic. Ask him about their view of faith and works. Ask him about their view of the Person and work of Jesus Christ. Ask him to tell you about how sacraments function soteriologically. Ask him these questions.
That is my challenge.
Thomas Helwys
New Member
Do all of you on here believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven? Seems like some believe that one's view of Jesus is the only way to heaven.
Zaac
Well-Known Member
Did these things long ago. He doesn't get to define Catholic theology. That comes from the Catholic Church that they believe to always be right and on par with the word of God.
And they will pretty much tell you the same kind of stuff you hear coming from Mormons. You can say the exact same thing that Baptists say as their answer if you wish. But the problem is, their TRUTH is not the same because the JESUS whom they have fashioned to meet their own desires is not the same as the Jesus of the Bible.
That's the whole problem of adding to God's word. You end up with something that looks like the real thing, but ain't.
12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. 2 Cor. 11:12-15
Do I need to know how sacraments function soteriologically when they've fashioned a Jesus that is not the Jesus of the Bible? When you're telling people something other than what God's truth says and that's what your truth is based upon, why would it matter what a priest has to say if the Catholic Church, that is never wrong, says something that disagrees with God's word?
quantumfaith
Active Member
Zaac
Well-Known Member
4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 2 Cor. 11:4
My wife's entire family, brothers, sisters, parents, aunts, uncles, etc. are DEVOUT RC's. There is an aunt who is a nun, and an uncle who is a priest. I've talked to each and every one of them at length. They are VERY NICE people, all of them. I would say NONE of them are saved. Why? Because I've talked to them about what it is they believe. Nothing Scriptural at all. Everyone of them, priest and nun included, cannot tell you if they are going to Heaven or not. It all depends on their "state of grace" at the moment of death, how long in Purgatory they need to spend, etc. I've listened to "masses" for people in my wife's family, LONG DEAD, who are still being prayed for, that God might accept them into Heaven. Jesus is a "minor" figure in the RCC. Mary is CENTRAL. They claim she is CO-Mediatrix!!! Anyone that thinks the RCC is Christian is deceiving themselves, and are Biblically illiterate, IMHO.
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Bronconagurski
New Member
That is so sad, to be so close to salvation, yet so far away. Praying for them, brother. I know the feeling when it comes to family. I have a sister-in-law that won't even admit that Jesus was a real person that lived upon the earth.
Zaac
Well-Known Member
This hurts my heart because you have got so many folks in the world just like this. And it's just reinforced when they are RIGHT THERE in your family.
This is why it is IMPERATIVE that the Body of Christ not send conflicting messages about the eternal state of anyone who is trusting in salvation by anything other than by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and His COMPLETED atoning work on the Cross.
Originally Posted by Baptist4life View Post
My wife's entire family, brothers, sisters, parents, aunts, uncles, etc. are DEVOUT RC's. There is an aunt who is a nun, and an uncle who is a priest. I've talked to each and every one of them at length. They are VERY NICE people, all of them. I would say NONE of them are saved. Why? Because I've talked to them about what it is they believe. Nothing Scriptural at all. Everyone of them, priest and nun included, cannot tell you if they are going to Heaven or not. It all depends on their "state of grace" at the moment of death, how long in Purgatory they need to spend, etc. I've listened to "masses" for people in my wife's family, LONG DEAD, who are still being prayed for, that God might accept them into Heaven. Jesus is a "minor" figure in the RCC. Mary is CENTRAL. They claim she is CO-Mediatrix!!! Anyone that thinks the RCC is Christian is deceiving themselves, and are Biblically illiterate, IMHO.
I understand that this is your opinion now, but do you feel that this RC'ism is just a "Religious" dodge to totally trying to understand Christ & His teachings, so they can just live the life they want to (ie sinful) then go someplace to get it absolved & then sin again?
My wife's entire family, brothers, sisters, parents, aunts, uncles, etc. are DEVOUT RC's. There is an aunt who is a nun, and an uncle who is a priest. I've talked to each and every one of them at length. They are VERY NICE people, all of them. I would say NONE of them are saved. Why? Because I've talked to them about what it is they believe. Nothing Scriptural at all. Everyone of them, priest and nun included, cannot tell you if they are going to Heaven or not. It all depends on their "state of grace" at the moment of death, how long in Purgatory they need to spend, etc. I've listened to "masses" for people in my wife's family, LONG DEAD, who are still being prayed for, that God might accept them into Heaven. Jesus is a "minor" figure in the RCC. Mary is CENTRAL. They claim she is CO-Mediatrix!!! Anyone that thinks the RCC is Christian is deceiving themselves, and are Biblically illiterate, IMHO.
I understand that this is your opinion now, but do you feel that this RC'ism is just a "Religious" dodge to totally trying to understand Christ & His teachings, so they can just live the life they want to (ie sinful) then go someplace to get it absolved & then sin again?
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Well, I've often thought the reason so many people are RCs is because it's so "easy" to be one! You can pretty much live any way you want, just as long as you go to "mass" every once in awhile and get your eucharist. My wife's family even joke that the reason the RCC started having Saturday afternoon "mass" was so people could get church out of the way before the bars and nightclubs got full! Also, you don't have to get up Sunday morning with that hangover! Sad.
Zaac
Well-Known Member
That's an interesting question EWF. I know you didn't ask me, but what I've found is that this is just a part of what they were born into, kinda like Muslims.
You're brought up a certain way and you just adopt the mores of that culture. The RCC answer to dealing with sin just happens to be the answer that they were taught, and now believe.
It's wrong, but it is what they were taught.
And there are some ardent believers in this way especially in your Latin countries. as with all non-believers, nothing but the supernatural hand of God can remove the scales.
I had this boss I worked for (about 20 years) who is a VP of Sales & Marketing. He is also a total sociopath & a strict Roman Catholic. The RC part can completely exonerate his daily life style which is to cheat on his wife, humiliate people, destroy their lives & then go to confession & communion on the weekend. Its part of his systematic life style .....sin for 6 days & repent on the seventh. He does religion as he does his jogging... tipping his hat to God. The funny thing is he is convinced his behavior rewards him. He is successful in business, his wife stays with him (probably due to monetary recompense), he commands peoples lives etc.....you will love this, He is VP of Sales & his last name is Cheetham. God has a sense of humor.
:laugh::laugh: He does indeed!
Earth, Wind, & Fire, sure enough Roman Catholicism is a merit theology (based on work, work, work). My problem with the current Pope, as I documented above, is that he twice stated that there is no Salvation outside the walls of the Roman Catholic Church. He said this on vacation in Italy after he became Pope and he said it before he became Pope in the Vatican document Dominus Iesus. He said that second-wave and third-wave Protestant churches were not really churches at all.
I think that Catholicism is incapable of reform. Specifically, they should rescind the 16th century Council of Trent, which, as you know, cursed Protestants to hell for saying that the just shall live by faith.
As far as I know, the only reform since 1054 AD, when the Eastern Orthodox denominations split from Roman Catholicism over the issue of the Bishop of Rome's proclaiming himself head of all Christians and the sole representative of Jesus on earth (Vicar of Christ), was to allow the Mass to be said in the native language of the country about 50 years ago.
Here is the documentation of the Pope's statements against Protestant and Eastern Orthodox denominations:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/19692094/...t/pope-other-denominations-not-true-churches/
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html
I think that Catholicism is incapable of reform. Specifically, they should rescind the 16th century Council of Trent, which, as you know, cursed Protestants to hell for saying that the just shall live by faith.
As far as I know, the only reform since 1054 AD, when the Eastern Orthodox denominations split from Roman Catholicism over the issue of the Bishop of Rome's proclaiming himself head of all Christians and the sole representative of Jesus on earth (Vicar of Christ), was to allow the Mass to be said in the native language of the country about 50 years ago.
Here is the documentation of the Pope's statements against Protestant and Eastern Orthodox denominations:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/19692094/...t/pope-other-denominations-not-true-churches/
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html
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I grew up in the RCC; spent 20 years there. I never heard the gospel once.
My extended family are Catholics. I am the black sheep. They don't want to hear the gospel. They are "good enough." They think that I have gone off the deep end, so to speak. They are happy with "their religion," they don't want to hear another. In effect they have totally rejected the gospel. They listen only to what the priest will tell them, which is not the gospel at all.