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Pope Benedict to Resign at End of Month
- Thread starter Zaac
- Start date
Is that his Sith name????
Yeah and it's false.
You must be talking about there co redeemer Mary. In fact it seems they never pray to Christ. Maybe it's the actual flesh of Christ you are talking about you know the flesh of Christ the bread preist pray over and it turns in to the flesh of Christ. Maybe even its all those so called Saints they pray to or maybe the beads they count as they pray to Mary. Hail Mary holy mother of god. The problem is which god. is it Mary or the Pope himself? Faith misplaced might as well not exist because it does nothing.
Sure they can be saved but they have to place that faith in Christ alone.
I would certainly disagree Catholics are not Christian they will even tell you they aren't. They claim the church is there key to Salvation instead of the gospel.
Sounds as if to me you wish you were Catholic. Certainly you must have read where he considers Islam as a religion of God and that it's true.
MB
Zaac
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure if that is the case. :laugh: It's good to be compassionate. But we must not lose sight that we are first dealing with sinful individuals who must repent and turn to Jesus as who HE says He is.
I do believe a lot of times in our attempts to be compassionate , we can start to forsake keeping God first because of a "cause".
So let's love on unsaved Catholics just as we would anyone else who doesn't know Christ. But let's not let our idea of compassion help them to stumble right into hell because we don't want to tell them they are unsaved because they have not gone through Christ for salvation.
I wish someone could instruct me as to how to change my profile. I don't see an edit option.
Probably best I not post my testimony and reasons for becoming Catholic on this thread as I no longer consider myself a Baptist and only posted in this forum by mistake. I would be glad to share my testimony in the appropriate forum, however.
BTW, there is so much mis-information on this thread as to the pope and what he has said about Islam and other Baptists 'ideas' about Catholicism it is difficult not to comment but I will respect the rules of the board.
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Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
Alrighty Then...
Walter...I'm glad you came back up here and told us that because inquiring minds do want to know! If you will kindly tell us where to look in the non-Baptist forums for your testimony and comments about it I'm sure there are those of us who will be happy to join you there for what may be a very interesting discussion. I'd very much like to see what, of what you call "mis-information", you can factually refute. I won't speak for anyone else but I will only say (for myself) that it is my sincere desire to base and build my life here on earth on God's truth and not man's lies. I am searching for the truth,regardless of the topic under discussion. Denominationally...if I have to be labeled....I am a Baptist ONLY because I believe that Bible-Believing Baptists are, due to their generally higher regard for the absolute authority of the Holy scriptures, closer to the truth in the biblical sense than all the other denominations. If I didn't honestly believe that then I would never darken the door of the assembly I fellowship and worship at. I would be most interested in why and for what reasons you believe the Catholic Church to be superior to the Baptists (or any other denomination for that matter). Let us know where to look!
On a seperate note...I appreciate your intent and respect for the posting rules of the Board. Sometimes you have to do a post like the one above just to get a message across. I know that is true. Your respect for the rules tells me something positive about you.
Bro.Greg:saint:
Walter...I'm glad you came back up here and told us that because inquiring minds do want to know! If you will kindly tell us where to look in the non-Baptist forums for your testimony and comments about it I'm sure there are those of us who will be happy to join you there for what may be a very interesting discussion. I'd very much like to see what, of what you call "mis-information", you can factually refute. I won't speak for anyone else but I will only say (for myself) that it is my sincere desire to base and build my life here on earth on God's truth and not man's lies. I am searching for the truth,regardless of the topic under discussion. Denominationally...if I have to be labeled....I am a Baptist ONLY because I believe that Bible-Believing Baptists are, due to their generally higher regard for the absolute authority of the Holy scriptures, closer to the truth in the biblical sense than all the other denominations. If I didn't honestly believe that then I would never darken the door of the assembly I fellowship and worship at. I would be most interested in why and for what reasons you believe the Catholic Church to be superior to the Baptists (or any other denomination for that matter). Let us know where to look!
On a seperate note...I appreciate your intent and respect for the posting rules of the Board. Sometimes you have to do a post like the one above just to get a message across. I know that is true. Your respect for the rules tells me something positive about you.
Bro.Greg:saint:
I don't believe there will be any comforts in hell like a seat. I just wonder how he will explain all that false doctrine he preached on judgement day. Actually when you think of all those whom he helped to mislead it would make him worse than Hitler.
Crabtown believes you are judging him. I believe it's an accurate discernment. His own fruits are what has already judged Him.
MB
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Hi Brother Greg. I will post my testimony in the 'Other Christian Denominations' forum. I may not get it posted today but will do so as soon as I can give it the time and effort it deserves. I look forward to discussions with you. I've been asked to present my testimony for RCIA anyway and this will keep me from procrastinating.
Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
Thanks...and...
Walter...just one additional thing. I presume you will be creating a seperate thread down there in which to "frame" the discussion and I, for one, will look forward to it and on my part at least will do my best to keep it civilized in a Biblical and Christian kind of way. I would only ask you to do this one thing.....I know you are Catholic now so in being that (if what I believe I know about Catholicism is true) you must needs be regard the edicts or statements of the Pope as equally (at least) authoritative as the Scriptures. I'm sure you realize and know that Baptists and most other professing Christians do NOT believe that. That being said, we (we baptists) cannot accept the Pope's words as authoritative (no disrespect intended....just stating the facts of our position).(To us he (the Pope) is just another fallen man in need of a Saviour) I do believe that even Catholics regard and accept the Scriptures as the Word of God..EVEN IF THEIR REGARD AND RESPECT FOR THEIR AUTHORITY MAY BE DIVIDED BY THEIR EQUAL REGARD AND RESPECT FOR THE AUTHORITY OF THE POPE. You may feel free to correct me if I am mistaken. In any case...my only point is simply that if you desire to make any ground in convincing we Baptists of the validity of your claims or your conversion to Catholicism (and I do hope you are truly open-minded enough to honestly discuss it) then you must be prepared to offer firm Biblical references to back up your actions. Our authority is ONLY the Bible. Personally, I prefer the KJV ( I am actually a KJVO adherent) but I know that as a practicing Catholic you may be using something other such as the Douay-Rheims, NRSV or some other. In any case, I'll be looking forward to seeing your thread down in the other forum. I hope some of our other brothers up here will join us.
By the way...forgive for not knowing but what is RCIA?
Bro.Greg:saint:
Walter...just one additional thing. I presume you will be creating a seperate thread down there in which to "frame" the discussion and I, for one, will look forward to it and on my part at least will do my best to keep it civilized in a Biblical and Christian kind of way. I would only ask you to do this one thing.....I know you are Catholic now so in being that (if what I believe I know about Catholicism is true) you must needs be regard the edicts or statements of the Pope as equally (at least) authoritative as the Scriptures. I'm sure you realize and know that Baptists and most other professing Christians do NOT believe that. That being said, we (we baptists) cannot accept the Pope's words as authoritative (no disrespect intended....just stating the facts of our position).(To us he (the Pope) is just another fallen man in need of a Saviour) I do believe that even Catholics regard and accept the Scriptures as the Word of God..EVEN IF THEIR REGARD AND RESPECT FOR THEIR AUTHORITY MAY BE DIVIDED BY THEIR EQUAL REGARD AND RESPECT FOR THE AUTHORITY OF THE POPE. You may feel free to correct me if I am mistaken. In any case...my only point is simply that if you desire to make any ground in convincing we Baptists of the validity of your claims or your conversion to Catholicism (and I do hope you are truly open-minded enough to honestly discuss it) then you must be prepared to offer firm Biblical references to back up your actions. Our authority is ONLY the Bible. Personally, I prefer the KJV ( I am actually a KJVO adherent) but I know that as a practicing Catholic you may be using something other such as the Douay-Rheims, NRSV or some other. In any case, I'll be looking forward to seeing your thread down in the other forum. I hope some of our other brothers up here will join us.
By the way...forgive for not knowing but what is RCIA?
Bro.Greg:saint:
RCIA: Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults.
My pupose on this board is not to try to convince anyone that the Catholic Church holds the Apostolic Faith. I'm not trying to convert anyone. I do learn much from reading through threads not related to Catholicism although I do not comment on them often. I do sometimes comment on threads relating to Catholicism in the 'Other Denominations' forum simply because of the tremendous amount of mis-infomation found there. Your thoughts on papal infallibility is an example. Only when the pope speaks Ex-Cathedra (which rarely happens) through the assistance of the Holy Spirit is anything considered 'infallible'. In other words, when he defines a dogma in virtue of his supreme authority and in his capacity as chief pastor of the universal Church. According to Catholic doctrine, papal infallibility is based on the fact that in Luke 22:32 Jesus promised Peter that his “faith” (i.e., his declarations of divine truths concerning “faith and morals”) would not fail. I know you may not agree with the contextual disposition of Luke 22:32. Christ instructed the Church to preach everything He taught (Matt. 28:19–20) and promised the protection of the Holy Spirit to "guide you into all the truth" (John 16:13). That mandate and that promise guarantee the Church will never fall away from his teachings (Matt. 16:18, 1 Tim. 3:15), even if individual Catholics might. Anyway, no pope can issue something Ex-Cathedra that contradicts scripture nor is it given more weight than scripture. The pope also sees himself as 'another fallen man in need of a Savior'. In fact, the present pope goes to confession regularly. Probably best to discuss this in the soon to be created thread.
I will make every effort to discuss matters in an open minded, civil, biblical and Christian manner in the soon-to-be created thread. Please keep in mind there are only three Catholics allowed on this board at this time. We are allowed here because we were Baptists when we joined and have become Catholic afterwards and we don't attempt to proselytize. Because there are so few of us, it is not easy to answer the many posts that may appear on this type of thread. I see the reverse on Catholic boards and I often feel for the evangelicals that are barraged with questions.
I have no doubt that there may be saved, blood-bought believers in the Catholic Church.
BUT, after living in Mexico for a number of years as a missionary, I can tell you that there is a definite difference between how Catholicism is believed and practiced in the USA versus in Mexico, Colombia, and other Hispanic countries. In those countries it would be very hard for one to be a believer in Christ alone for salvation and still remain a practicing member of the Catholic Church. Most who receive Christ have to leave, not just the Church, but family, friends, and employment.
There is still persecution of Bible preachers and missionaries in Mexico by the Catholic Church, mainly focused in the rural areas. I have personally talked with pastors who have suffered such.
Those believers who are in the Catholic Church should do the right thing and get out.
BUT, after living in Mexico for a number of years as a missionary, I can tell you that there is a definite difference between how Catholicism is believed and practiced in the USA versus in Mexico, Colombia, and other Hispanic countries. In those countries it would be very hard for one to be a believer in Christ alone for salvation and still remain a practicing member of the Catholic Church. Most who receive Christ have to leave, not just the Church, but family, friends, and employment.
There is still persecution of Bible preachers and missionaries in Mexico by the Catholic Church, mainly focused in the rural areas. I have personally talked with pastors who have suffered such.
Those believers who are in the Catholic Church should do the right thing and get out.
Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
Thank You
Walter...while I am sure there is and will be much that we will not agree upon, I do at least respect your apparent honesty and forthrightness about what you think and believe. It is apparent that, whatever your objections to Baptists or non-Catholics may be, you have at least put some real thought into it. The discussion-to-come will probably be very interesting. My only "shot-across-the-bow" here would be that the ideas of "Ex-Cathedra" papal edicts (however rare they may be) OR papal "infallibility" are (at least in my view) extra-Biblical and can't be supported from any Biblical evidence that I have ever seen, read, or heard in all the 30+ years that I have been saved. That is my stated opinion. By the way...to be fair, there are certain BAPTIST "doctrines" and "traditions" that can't be soundly supported from a contextual and balanced interpretation of the Scriptures that I would reject as well. As I've read and studied deeper in the scriptures and grown closer (I hope) to the Lord over the years I have come to that conclusion (that "organized" religion..be it Baptist,Catholic or whatever tends many times to confuse and obscure the real truth). I will be very interested to hear (or read) in your testimony why you moved AWAY from the "Baptists" to embrace Catholicism. In any case, we'll close out the discussion here and await the coming one down "south" of here.:laugh:
Bro.Greg:saint:
Walter...while I am sure there is and will be much that we will not agree upon, I do at least respect your apparent honesty and forthrightness about what you think and believe. It is apparent that, whatever your objections to Baptists or non-Catholics may be, you have at least put some real thought into it. The discussion-to-come will probably be very interesting. My only "shot-across-the-bow" here would be that the ideas of "Ex-Cathedra" papal edicts (however rare they may be) OR papal "infallibility" are (at least in my view) extra-Biblical and can't be supported from any Biblical evidence that I have ever seen, read, or heard in all the 30+ years that I have been saved. That is my stated opinion. By the way...to be fair, there are certain BAPTIST "doctrines" and "traditions" that can't be soundly supported from a contextual and balanced interpretation of the Scriptures that I would reject as well. As I've read and studied deeper in the scriptures and grown closer (I hope) to the Lord over the years I have come to that conclusion (that "organized" religion..be it Baptist,Catholic or whatever tends many times to confuse and obscure the real truth). I will be very interested to hear (or read) in your testimony why you moved AWAY from the "Baptists" to embrace Catholicism. In any case, we'll close out the discussion here and await the coming one down "south" of here.:laugh:
Bro.Greg:saint:
Its clear a lot of have experience with or around the RCC. Growing where I did two of my friends in middle school and high school ended up becoming priests in the Roman Catholic Church. I have a good friend locally who is a RCC priest. In my PhD work I spent a healthy amount of time studying the RCC. So I've got a bit of a platform to discuss this stuff too. Having been around this place for a while now, and having been in Baptist churches even longer, I see too many examples of individuals who have bad information about the RCC.
However, I'm not secretly wishing I was Roman Catholic. I am happily and firmly Baptist. I do believe there are many in the RCC who are saved, and its probably the same ratio as folks who are part of Baptist churches.
When was the last time you read through a Mass? When was the last time you listen to a homily? When I read the standard Mass I don't see very much discussion of Mary, but I do see a lot about Jesus Christ. This whole rant about Mary seems overly embellished. I don't think she occupies a position of prominence as much as you do.
I do have problems with the veneration of Mary. She clearly was not a perpetual virgin and we have evidence of that. She was a special person who was used mightily by God. We can be thankful for her and not take things to dramatic ends.
Well this is a bit of misunderstanding about their soteriology. When Catholics say "the Church" is the "key to salvation" they are simply noting that the Church, institutionally, functions as the deliverance of efficacious grace through the celebration of the seven sacraments. A person is only saved insofar as they maintain communion with the Church, observe the sacraments, and receive mediating grace. It is an inarticulate position to say the "church is [their] key to Salvation".
Now, I don't accept the Roman Catholic view of soteriology. In fact, I reject it. However, my historical reticence makes me note that this view of salvation has been maintained for a rather long time. So instead of mischaracterizing this view, let's do our best to accurately represent it.
Justification is the means by which we are sealed in the grace of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. A Roman Catholic would have no problem affirming that salvation is by grace through faith, and not of works. Where our differences creep in often has to do with where does the efficacy of grace intersect with personal behavior and, more importantly, is an ecclesial institution necessary for according that grace throughout our lifetime?
Clearly I don't accept the RCC answer here. But I also can't mischaracterize their position.
First of all your first point is slanderous and out of order. It hurts me that you would say that. I have deep respect for all people who claim the way of Christ. There are increasingly fewer of us every day. We must learn to put up with each other because we'll inevitably spend eternity together.
Secondly, show me with a direct citation where Pope Benedict XVI has this about Islam. Otherwise, you're slandering him as well.
However, I'm not secretly wishing I was Roman Catholic. I am happily and firmly Baptist. I do believe there are many in the RCC who are saved, and its probably the same ratio as folks who are part of Baptist churches.
When was the last time you read through a Mass? When was the last time you listen to a homily? When I read the standard Mass I don't see very much discussion of Mary, but I do see a lot about Jesus Christ. This whole rant about Mary seems overly embellished. I don't think she occupies a position of prominence as much as you do.
I do have problems with the veneration of Mary. She clearly was not a perpetual virgin and we have evidence of that. She was a special person who was used mightily by God. We can be thankful for her and not take things to dramatic ends.
MB said:
Well this is a bit of misunderstanding about their soteriology. When Catholics say "the Church" is the "key to salvation" they are simply noting that the Church, institutionally, functions as the deliverance of efficacious grace through the celebration of the seven sacraments. A person is only saved insofar as they maintain communion with the Church, observe the sacraments, and receive mediating grace. It is an inarticulate position to say the "church is [their] key to Salvation".
Now, I don't accept the Roman Catholic view of soteriology. In fact, I reject it. However, my historical reticence makes me note that this view of salvation has been maintained for a rather long time. So instead of mischaracterizing this view, let's do our best to accurately represent it.
Justification is the means by which we are sealed in the grace of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. A Roman Catholic would have no problem affirming that salvation is by grace through faith, and not of works. Where our differences creep in often has to do with where does the efficacy of grace intersect with personal behavior and, more importantly, is an ecclesial institution necessary for according that grace throughout our lifetime?
Clearly I don't accept the RCC answer here. But I also can't mischaracterize their position.
MB said:
First of all your first point is slanderous and out of order. It hurts me that you would say that. I have deep respect for all people who claim the way of Christ. There are increasingly fewer of us every day. We must learn to put up with each other because we'll inevitably spend eternity together.
Secondly, show me with a direct citation where Pope Benedict XVI has this about Islam. Otherwise, you're slandering him as well.
Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
I disagree...strenuosly
PIJ...from what I've read by others here and said myself I don't think we are "mischaracterizing" Catholic doctrine as much as we are "interpreting" and defining it according to the truths taught in the Word of God about what does...and does NOT constitute our salvation and justification by grace through faith and other vital Biblical truths.The following excerpt from your post is clearly contradictory as follows:
You said:
"Well this is a bit of misunderstanding about their soteriology. When Catholics say "the Church" is the "key to salvation" they are simply noting that the Church, institutionally, functions as the deliverance of efficacious grace through the celebration of the seven sacraments. A person is only saved insofar as they maintain communion with the Church, observe the sacraments, and receive mediating grace. It is an inarticulate position to say the "church is [their] key to Salvation".
If THIS is what they "believe" and what they are "saying" then they ARE saying their salvation comes by and through their CHURCH. There is nothing even SLIGHTLY scriptural about ANY of that...in my humble opinion. There is NOTHING about ANY church or denomination (Baptists included)that constitutes a "means of grace". It's simply not in the Bible...even if it is part of their church tradition. Neither is papal authority, apostolic sucession, papal "infallibility" mariology, purgatory, indulgences,the "mass" (transubstantiation)confession to a "priest" or "Father". I could go on but that's enough for now.
Bro.Greg:saint:
PIJ...from what I've read by others here and said myself I don't think we are "mischaracterizing" Catholic doctrine as much as we are "interpreting" and defining it according to the truths taught in the Word of God about what does...and does NOT constitute our salvation and justification by grace through faith and other vital Biblical truths.The following excerpt from your post is clearly contradictory as follows:
You said:
"Well this is a bit of misunderstanding about their soteriology. When Catholics say "the Church" is the "key to salvation" they are simply noting that the Church, institutionally, functions as the deliverance of efficacious grace through the celebration of the seven sacraments. A person is only saved insofar as they maintain communion with the Church, observe the sacraments, and receive mediating grace. It is an inarticulate position to say the "church is [their] key to Salvation".
If THIS is what they "believe" and what they are "saying" then they ARE saying their salvation comes by and through their CHURCH. There is nothing even SLIGHTLY scriptural about ANY of that...in my humble opinion. There is NOTHING about ANY church or denomination (Baptists included)that constitutes a "means of grace". It's simply not in the Bible...even if it is part of their church tradition. Neither is papal authority, apostolic sucession, papal "infallibility" mariology, purgatory, indulgences,the "mass" (transubstantiation)confession to a "priest" or "Father". I could go on but that's enough for now.
Bro.Greg:saint:
Zaac
Well-Known Member
That still looks like everything but by grace through faith.
I agree. We should all identify it as not being salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
Speak English. That's a bunch of confusing church words you just said.:laugh: This is not a Philosophy of religion class.
saturneptune
New Member
You have no right whatsoever to throw a demeaning word at another poster in that manner. Your purpose in posting for the last eight months has been to troll, demean, accuse, and degrade other posters by implying directly or indirectly they are not saved or believe false doctrine. There was someone banned yesterday for that after a few days. Why you are still here I do not know.
Read the Council of Trent. Its decrees have never been rescinded, many of them dealing with justification. To say that one is saved by grace through faith and not of works is to be accursed according to the RCC.
I respect your opinion on a wide range of issues but this statement really destroys the credibility of your argument. If you ask the average Catholic why they should be entered into Heaven, you are not going to hear "I was a hell bound sinner who repented and put my faith in Jesus, and Jesus alone, for the forgiveness of my sins." No, you will hear "I was baptized as an infant into God's family, I attend Mass regularly and receive the Eucharist and am a good person because I try to keep the ten commandments."
I've been to a couple of Catholic funeral Masses recently. Their treatment of communion was a bombastic tribute to rite and ceremony that bordered on obsessiveness. Agree that from what I've seen the Mary argument is overdone by evangelicals but it is a definite part of their beliefs.
Which is completely wrong theology.
Yes, that is known as a works based salvation.
Agreed. There is a Catholic radio station in the area and I've listened to a couple broadcasts of the daily Q&A sessions they have with a member of the clergy. I was surprised as they have many doctrines (essentially) correct but then they introduce a lot of other extra-Biblical stuff like Church tradition and history as if it were the gospel itself and then demand obedience to that.
Yes, and then they introduce a bunch of other stuff that is equally essential to salvation.
You see a lot of that here. Let's not get started on the distortions of Islam that is portrayed here.
raying:
Ask the average Baptist or evangelical the same question and you'll get just as scary an answer. How do I know? Because I've done it.
You end up usually getting a mixture of works based, Osteen positivism, and pantheistic philosophy wrapped into a cliche laden statement. I think we can agree that all our churches need to do better at educating our folks on this stuff.
InTheLight said:
I don't disagree with this and most of the statements below.
InTheLightYes said:True, one of the challenges in the Roman Catholic system is their need to incorporate additional measure of salvific efficacy. One's justification is never settled. In part they found this was an effective way of keeping the peace. Yet it is an incorrect view of things.
InTheLight said:You see a lot of that here. Let's not get started on the distortions of Islam that is portrayed here.
True.