Pope Sanctions Gay Clergy!

[Walter]

“CBS This Morning” had Archbishop Dolan on yesterday (July 30) and he clarified what Pope Frances said. Charlie Rose asked ++Dolan if the Roman Church would ever change the Roman Church’s position on homosexual activities. ++Dolan flatly stated that they wouldn’t. ++Dolan reiterated (more than once) that the Roman Church hold’s sexual activity outside on male-female marriage is sinful. Ah the Main Stream Media’s and DHK twists and turns were foiled by a clear statement of the the orthodox Christian stance.
He is not saying “I’ve changed my mind about gay sex - it’s fine!” But if you were to go by what you read in the papers, he’s completely turned around the teaching of the Church on this. He hasn’t even said anything about relaxing or changing the ban on permitting men with same-sex attraction to become seminarians, yet it’s being reported as if Francis is saying “All gay and lesbian priests now all the time”.
What Francis was saying follows on from his emphasis on the mercy of God - do not fear to seek God because the mercy of God is ever-present for the truly repentant - and he was talking more about “I’m not interested in starting up a hunt to root out alleged gay religious” than “I think we were wrong on gay and lesbian people being permitted to marry”.
It’s telling that he quoted the Catechism in his answer and that part wasn’t included in the mainstream media reports, but eh - that’s more or less what you have to expect in religion reporting and DHK has repeatedly IGNORED the fact that he said it! DHK a little biased maybe?

 

[DHK]

Can a child molester profess salvation, and then continue on in a lifestyle of molesting children?
Can a serial rapist profess salvation, and then continue on in a lifestyle of raping others?
Why not?
Is it because our society makes excuses and says they have a "gene" that causes them to do these things; a "mutation"?
The truth is, like all of us, they have sin natures.
They give into their vile sin natures. There is nothing else wrong with them.
Read Romans chapter one for a good description.

 

[Walter]

Can a child molester profess salvation, and then continue on in a lifestyle of molesting children?
Can a serial rapist profess salvation, and then continue on in a lifestyle of raping others?
Why not?
Is it because our society makes excuses and says they have a "gene" that causes them to do these things; a "mutation"?
The truth is, like all of us, they have sin natures.
They give into their vile sin natures. There is nothing else wrong with them.
Read Romans chapter one for a good description.

The pope said nothing about a 'gay gene' or that homosexual behavior was to be condoned in any way. What Francis was saying follows on from his emphasis on the mercy of God - do not fear to seek God because the mercy of God is ever-present for the truly repentant -It’s telling that he quoted the Catechism in his answer and that part wasn’t included in the mainstream media reports and DHK has repeatedly IGNORED the fact that he said it! In FACT, DHK intentionally left that out of the original OP because he knew it would sink him

 

[DHK]

The pope said nothing about a 'gay gene' or that homosexual behavior was to be condoned in any way. What Francis was saying follows on from his emphasis on the mercy of God - do not fear to seek God because the mercy of God is ever-present for the truly repentant -It’s telling that he quoted the Catechism in his answer and that part wasn’t included in the mainstream media reports and DHK has repeatedly IGNORED the fact that he said it! In FACT, DHK intentionally left that out of the original OP because he knew it would sink him

Nonsense! I quoted him verbatim.
One cannot bless a homosexual or his "orientation" without blessing his activity. He is either a homosexual defined by his activity or he is not a homosexual at all.

 

[Walter]

Nonsense! I quoted him verbatim.
One cannot bless a homosexual or his "orientation" without blessing his activity. He is either a homosexual defined by his activity or he is not a homosexual at all.

Can you show me where you have acknowledged that the pope, in the same interview, condemned any and all homosexual activity as sinful and not part of Church teaching?

Are you saying my Baptist friend, who says if he were to have sex he would have it with men, not women, but who has never engaged in a homosexual act is not really homosexual and he is living a life of celibacy for nothing? He just needs to 'pray the gay away'? Be specific. He is reading this with great amusement!

He says he has had an attraction to men as long as he can remember. Never women. Has determined by his understanding of scripture that he cannot act upon his desires and has chosen to remain celibate. If I understand you correctly, he is not a homosexual because a homosexual is only defined by what they do. He says he is homosexual. He has remained as true to the Christian faith as any Christian I know of (except he has shared this same-sex attraction with people he trusts) and I find it really hard to swallow what you seem to be saying. I agree with the guy from Talbot Seminary you labeled a 'looney Catholic'. And with Gup 20 when he/she says: This is why I don't use the term "homosexuality" if I can help it. I like to use the term "homosexual behavior." Truth be told, if we classified ourselves based on our lusts, rather than our actions, we would all be adulterers, fornicators, rapists, murderers, etc. It is no different for those with gay lusts. Their lusts are no more sinful than ours.

My friend has chosen not to act on his lusts. Now what? Is he a confused heterosexual who has NEVER had a heterosexual desire in his life?

 

[Walter]

I don't really care whether someone is "born that way" or whether it is a proclivity that develops later... lust is still lust. Many people have particular areas of sin that they personally struggle against. For example, some may struggle with lying, or some others may struggle with chemical dependencies, or some may struggle with sexual sins. The fact of the matter remains - just as a heterosexual man is called to keep his sexual behavior in check and not engage in extra-marital affairs, or sex outside of marriage, a homosexual man is asked also to subject his sexual behavior to God and His standards.

I agree with you and Bob that lust is from the heart, and to lust in your heart is sin. But the scripture says to "take every thought captive and subject it to Christ." Just because a thought enters our mind isn't sin... but giving it place, pondering it, and entertaining it is sin. You have to remember we are unregenerate, corrupted flesh. If we set our minds on who we are in the flesh, we will sin. If we set our minds on who we are in the spirit, we will do the things of God. Remember, Paul said he does the things he doesn't want to do, and doesn't do the things he thinks he should, but that the very fact that his spirit agrees with the scripture that certain things were good demonstrated that he was still righteous on the inner-man, even if his flesh was weak and he allowed the sin in him to control his actions. To avoid the lusts of the flesh, he says to set our minds on the things of the spirit.

Deserves a re-post! My friend has not given in to his desires, pondered it or entertained it (acted on it).

 

[DHK]

Can you show me where you have acknowledged that the pope, in the same interview, condemned any and all homosexual activity as sinful and not part of Church teaching?

Are you saying my Baptist friend, who says if he were to have sex he would have it with men, not women, but who has never engaged in a homosexual act is not really homosexual and he is living a life of celibacy for nothing? He just needs to 'pray the gay away'? Be specific. He is reading this with great amusement!

Sex is sex, and it is sin if not done within the confines of marriage.

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
--The Bible is clear in that one statement alone.
God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

Now the OP was mine. If you want more clarity let's look at it:

Pope Francis made comments on Monday that appeared to be a significant concession in the way the Catholic Church viewed homosexuality, at least in relation to homosexuality within the ranks of the clergy. During a press conference held during his return flight from Brazil, at the end of his first foreign trip since being named pope in March, Francis said he would not judge priests for their sexual orientation, a startlingly candid comment considering some previous popes didn’t even hold press conferences.
"If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?" he asked, according to the Canadian Press.
The comment followed a question about an Italian news report alleging one of his trusted aides had been involved in a gay romance. Francis said he had investigated the allegations and found nothing criminal. He added that when someone sins and confesses, God forgives and forgets.

The bolded statement is significant. It puts the quote in its context. The pope is not going to judge his clergy, his "trusted aids" who are involved in "gay romances."


Walter, Do you want to define "gay romance" for me?


Following that statement then he said "Who am I to judge?"
"God forgives and forgets."


There is no condemnation of sin, only acceptance of "gay romances" on the part of his own trusted aides. He does nothing to condemn this behavior whatsoever.

Absolutely astonishing behavior on the part of the Pope.
Perhaps he should be disrobed, defrocked, disbarred, and thrown out!!

 

[Walter]

Sex is sex, and it is sin if not done within the confines of marriage.

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
--The Bible is clear in that one statement alone.
God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

Now the OP was mine. If you want more clarity let's look at it:

The bolded statement is significant. It puts the quote in its context. The pope is not going to judge his clergy, his "trusted aids" who are involved in "gay romances."


Walter, Do you want to define "gay romance" for me?


Following that statement then he said "Who am I to judge?"
"God forgives and forgets."


There is no condemnation of sin, only acceptance of "gay romances" on the part of his own trusted aides. He does nothing to condemn this behavior whatsoever.

Absolutely astonishing behavior on the part of the Pope.
Perhaps he should be disrobed, defrocked, disbarred, and thrown out!!

WRONG, he did just that! He quoted the catechism and said that the Church has not nor will not budge an inch on it's teaching that sex outside of marriage (between a man and a woman) is sin. Regardless of how you or the media try to twist this, that is what he said, period! He never said he accepts gay acts of any kind!

Now here is a shocker. I do agree with you on this. Well, maybe you agree. I tend to think Francis blew it…not the media. He did not make the distinctions that his defenders are making in their clarifications…his words, at least as reported, are muddled and fuzzy. Unless one is familiar with the catechism, it would be very easy to come away with precisely the message being reported and that your are trying to give. The media is horrible, but this controversy is the fault of Francis and his apparent inability to speak with clarity. I think he needs to work on it. I think he is orthodox and made it clear in quoting and standing on the teaching on homosexuality in the catechism, but again, unless you are familiar with the catechism, it didn't mean much to those reporting (or you).

 

[Walter]

Sex is sex, and it is sin if not done within the confines of marriage.

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
--The Bible is clear in that one statement alone.
God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

Now the OP was mine. If you want more clarity let's look at it:

The bolded statement is significant. It puts the quote in its context. The pope is not going to judge his clergy, his "trusted aids" who are involved in "gay romances."


Walter, Do you want to define "gay romance" for me?


Following that statement then he said "Who am I to judge?"
"God forgives and forgets."


There is no condemnation of sin, only acceptance of "gay romances" on the part of his own trusted aides. He does nothing to condemn this behavior whatsoever.

Absolutely astonishing behavior on the part of the Pope.
Perhaps he should be disrobed, defrocked, disbarred, and thrown out!!

And boy, DHK, talk about taking the popes words and twisting them. He said he had investigated, found nothing wrong, but if he (the accused) had done something wrong (homosexual activity) that when a person sins, he confesses and God forgives and forgets. Now, what part of that bothers you. Sounds like the allegations against the man were unfounded and that had he been involved in the sin of homosexuality and the man repented and confessed his sin, then it is up to God to be the judge as to whether or not the man was truly contrite. Again, I think you and media twisted what he said and had the pope just quoted the catechism from the start instead of stating that he hasn't budged from the teaching of the Church you would not be having this discussion.

 

[steaver]

I thought threads on human sexuality were forbidden in this section.

I believe it depends on the context. For example, you cannot argue homosexuality as a non-sin, being ok with God. Or debate sex in general. I think it is ok to bring to light those who are promoting the homosexual lifestyle as being ok with Christ.

 

[steaver]

“CBS This Morning” had Archbishop Dolan on yesterday (July 30) and he clarified what Pope Frances said. Charlie Rose asked ++Dolan if the Roman Church would ever change the Roman Church’s position on homosexual activities. ++Dolan flatly stated that they wouldn’t. ++Dolan reiterated (more than once) that the Roman Church hold’s sexual activity outside on male-female marriage is sinful. Ah the Main Stream Media’s and DHK twists and turns were foiled by a clear statement of the the orthodox Christian stance.

I think it's troubling that the pope, who should know what he wants to say and exactly how it should be said, needs to have spoke persons following him around after the fact picking up the pieces and interpreting what the man had to say.

 

[DHK]

And boy, DHK, talk about taking the popes words and twisting them. He said he had investigated, found nothing wrong,

That is not what he said. Look again:

The comment followed a question about an Italian news report alleging one of his trusted aides had been involved in a gay romance. Francis said he had investigated the allegations and found nothing criminal. He added that when someone sins and confesses, God forgives and forgets.

He said: "He found nothing CRIMINAL."
He didn't say: immoral, against the teachings of the church, immoral, etc. He used the word "criminal."
Of course adultery and homosexuality are not crimes in Italy.
His trusted aides can commit homosexual acts all they want. It is not a crime. In that he is correct. They won't be sent to jail for it. But it is not the fruit of a saved person either.

It is not a matter of him judging ("I am not to judge.")
God has already condemned it.

 

[Walter]

I think it's troubling that the pope, who should know what he wants to say and exactly how it should be said, needs to have spoke persons following him around after the fact picking up the pieces and interpreting what the man had to say.

There are many Catholics in the blogsphere that agree with you, Steaver. And I hope he is quick to learn that he needs to speak with much more clarity. But here is what is translated from the Spainish transcript (which DHK does not have here) and does give more clarity to the Ricca accusations:

-With regard to Bishop Ricca, I did what canon law commanded to do, which is previous research. And this study says nothing about what has been published. We have found nothing. But I would add one thing: many times in the Church is to find the sins of youth and published. And speaking of sins, crimes such as child abuse. But if a person-secular priest or nun commits a sin and then repents, the Lord forgives. And when the Lord forgives, He forgets. The important thing is to make a theology of sin. I often think St. Peter made ​​the worst sins, deny Christ'

No mention of 'done nothing criminal' instead of 'done nothing immoral', just 'we have found nothing'. That is from the actual transcript. Now what the media did with it and what DHK is claiming is quite different.

 

[DHK]

Maybe the Pope should be more forthright like the Russian government:

In Russia it is now illegal to even speak about homosexuality around minors, much less openly display gay pride. Technically the ban is against "propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations" around minors, but the implication for openly gay individuals is clear. Public displays of affection by gays, including holding hands or displaying symbols like a rainbow flag, are now banned. Violators face steep fines and jail time; foreigners face similar penalties plus deportation.

http://www.worthynews.com/top/abcne...tes-prosecuted-2014-winter-story-id-19829868/

 

[Walter]

Maybe the Pope should be more forthright like the Russian government:

http://www.worthynews.com/top/abcne...tes-prosecuted-2014-winter-story-id-19829868/

And maybe, just maybe YOU (as a moderator) should be expected to adhere to the rules you require of everyone else participating here. You have ignored other participants query's as to why you have started a banned topic. Bet you respond to mine and we both know why!

"Warning: No Threads Regarding Human Sexuality Are Allowed in This Open Public Forum

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please note that according to the Baptist Board User Agreement and/or BB Posting Rules no threads dealing with human sexuality will be allowed in an open public forum. If you feel the need to discuss any subject matter dealing with human sexuality the proper and only permissible place to do so is in either the BB Private Men's Forum or the BB Private Women's Forum depending on the gender of the person starting the thread.

Yours in Christ,

Bible-boy,
Forum Moderator

 

[DHK]

And maybe, just maybe YOU (as a moderator) should be expected to adhere to the rules you require of everyone else participating here. You have ignored other participants query's as to why you have started a banned topic. Bet you respond to mine and we both know why!

"Warning: No Threads Regarding Human Sexuality Are Allowed in This Open Public Forum

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please note that according to the Baptist Board User Agreement and/or BB Posting Rules no threads dealing with human sexuality will be allowed in an open public forum. If you feel the need to discuss any subject matter dealing with human sexuality the proper and only permissible place to do so is in either the BB Private Men's Forum or the BB Private Women's Forum depending on the gender of the person starting the thread.

Yours in Christ,

Bible-boy,
Forum Moderator

Is this thread offending you Walter? Does the truth hurt?
This is mild compared to the same thread (same topic) in the General Baptist Forum. Here is one of the posts from there.

Possibly. But again, he's the AntiChrist. Trying to pigeonhole him as liberal or conservative when it comes to his politics or demeanor just doesn't seem to make much sense.

He's the AntiChrist.
Who cares if he's gay. He's the AntiChrist.
Who cares if he's anti-abortion. He's the AntiChrist.
He'll be whatever serves his purpose to spread his evil.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2016628&postcount=11

Perhaps you should read the thread.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

DHK......the RC Church, with this wink & nod from Poppy Francis, is now for all intents & purposes officially out of the closet. And it was bound to happen.... at the dinner table at our RC families house, we never really talked about the sexual orientation of the Priests (though we knew full well not to let our kids be alone with these characters). Mom forbade me to be an alter boy & it took me a long while to figure that out. In those days, homosexual priests stayed hidden in the closet. Oh Lord, when I think of all the times I went to confession & told these queers my sins.....well now.... today I am a strong advocate for throwing everyone of these sex offender/ pedophile weirdo's in jail (Catholic or otherwise)

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I was just reviewing this thread and what nonsense! First of all DHK you are falling right into the left wing media's trap at misrepresenting Pope Francis statement regarding gay clergy. How foolish. You start with the faulty premise that the left wing media plays up and create a whole thread to further unfairly bash Catholics. First of all let me enlighten you to what happened. The first thing that you should have caught on to is this question and answer session occurred on a plane trip back from Brazil to Rome. Some of the press asked to have the Pope answer some questions. One of the questions was specifically about the Vatican Bank scandal and the Pope's appointment of monsignor Battista Ricca. One of the reporters had gotten wind that there were some rumors that allege this priest had a Homosexual affair some 15 years ago. And the Pope responded to that question which lead him into a discourse about sin and the forgiveness of sin. It was here that He said specifically

If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will(ieIf they accept the Lord and have good will), who am I to judge them? They shouldn’t be marginalized,-

It is quite clear what he meant. If a person repents and accepts the Lord and if they have good will meaning they are sincere and not pretending (ie true repentance a turning away from one's sin). How can he judge them? Think about Nicky Cruz. The guy was a gang member, did drugs, had prostitutes, abused people, and almost killed David Wilkerson. Now if he repented and turned from his sin, which he did, then how can any of us judge him now that he's a pastor? Do we hold that against him? It was an off the cuff statement regarding sin and repentance regarding priest. That is the actual context. However, because just as much as DHK hates the Catholic Church which he has admitted to... So does the media and any time they can disparage it they will. They've always hated the Catholic stance against practicing homosexuals and that Homosexuality is a disorder. So they take this off the cuff remark out of its context and write head lines like this which I saw on Yahoo "Pope Francis reached out to gays on Monday, saying he wouldn't judge priests for their sexual orientation in a remarkably open and wide-ranging news conference as he returned from his first foreign trip." There was nothing in his discourse that could even be construed as Pope Francis "reaching out to gay people". The whole discussion was about sin and repentance. But loving to take him out of context to support their immoral sexual deviant desires the media blew this thing out of context and proportion. There is going to be no change on the Catholic Churches teaching regarding homosexuality. And the Pope isn't indicating one either. What he needs is a more savvy press agent who knows the tricks these reporters are up to.

 

[Walter]

Is this thread offending you Walter? Does the truth hurt?
This is mild compared to the same thread (same topic) in the General Baptist Forum. Here is one of the posts from there.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2016628&postcount=11

Perhaps you should read the thread.

You think I haven't read anti-Catholic garbage and 'whore of Babylon' nonsense on this board? The threads about Catholics priests 'secretly praying in Latin to Satan' at the Easter Vigil, etc.

I just think it's interesting that you expect people to follow rules that you yourself won't follow. Your seething hatred of Catholicism has caused you to sanction me for mentioning a particular Catholic apologetics book (on another thread) that particularly gets your goat, label a leading evangelical theologian a 'looney Catholic' simply because you assumed if I was quoting a theologian I could only be quoting a Catholic and then said 'oh, I thought it was that other guy'. There was 'no other guy' and you know it. T.S. is absolutely right, 'what nonsense'!

 

[DHK]

I was just reviewing this thread and what nonsense! First of all DHK you are falling right into the left wing media's trap at misrepresenting Pope Francis statement regarding gay clergy. How foolish.

First, it was the media that was traveling with the Pope; not you.
It is unfortunate that you did not hear what they heard, are disappointed and now have the role of "Dr. Spin" to play. But you weren't there and the Press was. As much as you disdain the "leftest media," they were the ones that were the eye-witness to his words. You were not.

But loving to take him out of context to support their immoral sexual deviant desires the media blew this thing out of context and proportion. There is going to be no change on the Catholic Churches teaching regarding homosexuality. And the Pope isn't indicating one either. What he needs is a more savvy press agent who knows the tricks these reporters are up to.

Again, you are making accusations that you can't back up. They were on the plane. You weren't. As I indicated in my most recent post, there is more than one thread on this subject. The other, in the General Baptist Forum, I haven't posted in. If you think my comments are harsh you ought to read theirs.