Praying to the dead - conjuring the dead

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:
And just who do you think the Psalmist is prayint to other than Jehovah??

Well let's see...

Praise Him, all His ange
Praise Him, all His hosts
Bless the Lord, you His angels
Quite obviously, the answer is the angels and hosts.

Bless the Lord, DHK.
Praise Him, DHK.

Who am I speaking to in those sentences, DHK? </font>[/QUOTE]The statements are imperatives (commands). You didn't pray to me! You commanded me to pray to God. Check your grammar.
DHK

 

[JFS]

I pray thee, please understand that the word does have more than one meaning. Thus I pray thee that we are speaking of the Biblical and theological concept of prayer as used in the Bible. For this reason my prayer to God is that you would come to a better understanding of this concept.

And here in lies the problem. You want to restrict Catholics to bible only definitions. You accuse Catholics of wrong doing base soley on Biblical deffinitions. Catholics use the whole deffinition of prayer rather than restrict there deffinition to the Bible only. Emagine that Catholics are not "Bible only" people. Just messin with ya a bit.

I understand the concept that you would rather people govern thier lives base soley on the Bible but Cathoilcs have this thing called "Tradition" which I know full well that you disagree with. But, I think it only fare that you judge our intentions on the way we define language rather than the way you define it. Based on our definition of the word "pray" you can not acuse Catholics of idolotry. Wether praying to the saints is Biblical or not is another thing.

God Bless you

John

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
The statements are imperatives (commands). You didn't pray to me! You commanded me to pray to God. Check your grammar.
DHK

You love word games don't you, DHK?

Ok, then in Psalm 103:20 and Psalm 148:2, who is the author "commanding" to praise and bless?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by JFS:
And here in lies the problem. You want to restrict Catholics to bible only definitions.

And therein lies your problem. You have come to a Baptist Board. We use the Bible as the final authority in all things of faith and practice. We do not define things according to others' definitions, but according to how the Bible defines it. If your definition does not match up with the Bible then it is wrong. Pure and simple.
DHK

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
We do not define things according to others' definitions, but according to how the Bible defines it. If your definition does not match up with the Bible then it is wrong. Pure and simple.
DHK

Not actually true.

Often times posters, including Baptists and yourself, cite a dictionary definition to argue Catholic teachings.

Rather than seeking to find out what the Church means to convey through the use of a particualr word, some prefer to attempt to tell Catholics what the particular word means by some other definition.

The former is communication.

The later is not.

 

[DHK]

Psa. 103:20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.

Pssa.148:2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

These were psalms of praise. David was obviously praising the Lord, Jehovah. He was shouting for joy, exuberant in praise. I do that every once in a while also. Does my heart good to spend time praising God. Notice that the praise goes directly to the Lord. He was praising Jehovah and none else. Worship belongs to God alone. I also can praise thusly:
Praise the Lord O my soul: (I am not addressing my soul)
Praise Him all creatures here below. (I am not addressing the creatures)
Praise Him all ye heavenly host.
Praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

My praise is always directed to God; it is Him I am worshipping. It is him I am addressing and adoring. I have no other thought in my mind but the Lord. My thought is that God be praised by all his creation that he has made, and that God alone be praised. That is the thought of the psalmist. If he doesn’t use straight denotative literal language to express that, it is not wrong. The meaning is very obvious to all that read it. God is being praise. Not angels!!
DHK

 

[JFS]

If your definition does not match up with the Bible then it is wrong. Pure and simple.

In your humble opinion. Right. Language is fluid. It is always changing. So for the sake of this argument when ever the term "Praying to the saints" is used replace it with the following term: "Asking the saints to ask Jesus to intersied(sp?) on our behalf". And I appologize for getting the definition wrong. Sounds pretty silly doesn't it. When you are interpetting the Bible you should for sure use Biblical definitions. I do not think that we should be restricted to Biblical definitions of a word when expressing ourselves on asking others to intersied for us. Pray do pray for me. Am I asking you to worship for me or am I asking you ask Jesus to intersied for me?

God Bless you

John

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
Not actually true.

Often times posters, including Baptists and yourself, cite a dictionary definition to argue Catholic teachings.

Rather than seeking to find out what the Church means to convey through the use of a particualr word, some prefer to attempt to tell Catholics what the particular word means by some other definition.

The former is communication.

The later is not.

Not when multiple definitions are used for one word.
Take for example the translation of the word ekklesia, meaning "church." The word in the Greek always means "assembly." If if was consistently translated that way there would be much less confusion today on what a church is. It is not a denomination, a building, a universal body of believers, etc. It is always a local assembly. That is the meaning of the word. That is the Biblical meaning of the word from the Greek langauge. The English has since added many more meanings. That is what I mean by using a Biblical definition. The same holds true for the word baptism.
DHK

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
Psa. 103:20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.

Pssa.148:2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

These were psalms of praise. David was obviously praising the Lord, Jehovah. He was shouting for joy, exuberant in praise. I do that every once in a while also. Does my heart good to spend time praising God. Notice that the praise goes directly to the Lord. He was praising Jehovah and none else. Worship belongs to God alone. I also can praise thusly:
Praise the Lord O my soul: (I am not addressing my soul)
Praise Him all creatures here below. (I am not addressing the creatures)
Praise Him all ye heavenly host.
Praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

My praise is always directed to God; it is Him I am worshipping. It is him I am addressing and adoring. I have no other thought in my mind but the Lord. My thought is that God be praised by all his creation that he has made, and that God alone be praised. That is the thought of the psalmist. If he doesn’t use straight denotative literal language to express that, it is not wrong. The meaning is very obvious to all that read it. God is being praise. Not angels!!
DHK

The author is telling the angels to praise the Lord.

It is very simple and very direct.

You wish to change the meaning of the words to fit your preconceived theology.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by JFS:
In your humble opinion. Right. Language is fluid. It is always changing. So for the sake of this argument when ever the term "Praying to the saints" is used replace it with the following term: "Asking the saints to ask Jesus to intersied(sp?) on our behalf". And I appologize for getting the definition wrong. Sounds pretty silly doesn't it. When you are interpetting the Bible you should for sure use Biblical definitions. I do not think that we should be restricted to Biblical definitions of a word when expressing ourselves on asking others to intersied for us. Pray do pray for me. Am I asking you to worship for me or am I asking you ask Jesus to intersied for me?

Then your right back to worship again. Prayer is worship. Whenever you pray to Mary, or any other saint for that matter, to intercede for you on behalf of Christ, that is a form of worship.

It is just not a simple flippant request is it?
"Hey, turn of the TV for me will You, Joe" (God??).
That is a request. Do you address either God or your saints in heaven that way? No, everything is done in an attitude of prayer, i.e. worship. That worship belongs only to God, and therefore when applied to any other person (dead or alive) is wrong. Consider prayer. It has different aspects to it:
1. Confession
2. Praise
3. Thanksgiving
4. Petitions
5. Intercession

When I come to God in prayer I maintain an attitude of worship in all five of these areas of prayer. And so should you, and probably do--whether praying to Mary or to God. Because of that you request is not simply a request (Hey Joe), it is an act of worship. It is idolatry.
DHK

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
Not when multiple definitions are used for one word.
Take for example the translation of the word ekklesia, meaning "church." The word in the Greek always means "assembly." If if was consistently translated that way there would be much less confusion today on what a church is. It is not a denomination, a building, a universal body of believers, etc. It is always a local assembly. That is the meaning of the word. That is the Biblical meaning of the word from the Greek langauge. The English has since added many more meanings. That is what I mean by using a Biblical definition. The same holds true for the word baptism.
DHK

Very often, the greek had multiple meanings for the same word also.

I have seen Baptists select the fourth or fifth meaning of the greek word over the primary meaning if it better fits their preconceived theology.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
The author is telling the angels to praise the Lord.

It is very simple and very direct.

You wish to change the meaning of the words to fit your preconceived theology.

Preconceived theology indeed! The lines that I quoted from, if you bothered to read them, were in part a quote from the doxology sung in many Baptist churches, and in most Presbyterian churches. Ask them if they think that they are praising "all creatures here below." I ask you again to check your grammar, and learn a little about the English language before making silly statements.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
Very often, the greek had multiple meanings for the same word also.

I have seen Baptists select the fourth or fifth meaning of the greek word over the primary meaning if it better fits their preconceived theology.

This is also true. For the meaning must be selected according to the context. It is often the context which best determines the proper meaning of the word. However definitions more recently added to the word in question are automatically are disqualified.

 

[JFS]

Then your right back to worship again. Prayer is worship. Whenever you pray to Mary, or any other saint for that matter, to intercede for you on behalf of Christ, that is a form of worship.

You are avoiding the question. When I ask you or any other saint, be they dead in body or alive in body(that means you), I do not ask them, or you, to intercede(thanks for the correct spelling) for me. I am asking them or you to ask Jesus to intercede for me. Why do I word it this way? Because Jesus is the only one that can intercede for me. So I will ask you again. When I ask you to pray for me am I asking you to worship for me or am I asking you to ASK JESUS TO INTERCEDE FOR ME?

God Bless you

John

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
It has different aspects to it:
1. Confession
2. Praise
3. Thanksgiving
4. Petitions
5. Intercession

When I come to God in prayer I maintain an attitude of worship in all five of these areas of prayer. And so should you, and probably do--whether praying to Mary or to God. Because of that you request is not simply a request (Hey Joe), it is an act of worship. It is idolatry.
DHK

You are claiming to know the heart and attitude of others better than they know their own heart and attitude.

Sorry, you can't do that unless you are claiming that you are God.

If I ask you to pray for me it is a request, but if I ask Mary to pray for me it is worship that is reserved for God alone?

Sorry, DHK, you cannot say that without claiming to know my heart, something that is reserved to God alone to know.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by JFS:
You are avoiding the question. When I ask you or any other saint, be they dead in body or alive in body(that means you), I do not ask them, or you, to intercede(thanks for the correct spelling) for me. I am asking them or you to ask Jesus to intercede for me. Why do I word it this way? Because Jesus is the only one that can intercede for me. So I will ask you again. When I ask you to pray for me am I asking you to worship for me or am I asking you to ASK JESUS TO INTERCEDE FOR ME?

Check the prayer forum. There are many requests that are posted there. Each one is specific, and asking for prayer from others to pray (to God) for the need that they have mentioned. In answering, you will see such posts as: "Consider it done." "Will be praying." Not one of them is worshipping the one who posted the request. That answers your question. They all present the request directly to God. God alone answers prayer. Jesus alone can intercede. Jesus is God.

"There in one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus."
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
You are claiming to know the heart and attitude of others better than they know their own heart and attitude.

Sorry, you can't do that unless you are claiming that you are God.

If I ask you to pray for me it is a request, but if I ask Mary to pray for me it is worship that is reserved for God alone?

Sorry, DHK, you cannot say that without claiming to know my heart, something that is reserved to God alone to know.

No, I claim that on the basis of what I know to be prayer on the basis of what the Bible defines to be prayer. Prayer is worship. If you are praying to Mary you are worshipping her.
DHK

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
No, I claim that on the basis of what I know to be prayer on the basis of what the Bible defines to be prayer. Prayer is worship. If you are praying to Mary you are worshipping her.
DHK

Please cite the verse(s) that define all prayer as worship.

 

[JFS]

No, I claim that on the basis of what I know to be prayer on the basis of what the Bible defines to be prayer. Prayer is worship. If you are praying to Mary you are worshipping her.
DHK

Round and round we go... And you are accusing us of having intentions we do not have based on your understanding of a term we use. When we offer our understanding of the term you still proceed to tell us what our intentions are inspite of what we say our intentions are. I believe that is false witness isn't it? It seems to me that what you really disagree with is that we petition people who you believe cannot hear our petitions. Oh well.

God Bless you any ways

John

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
For the meaning must be selected according to the context. It is often the context which best determines the proper meaning of the word. However definitions more recently added to the word in question are automatically are disqualified.

DHK, it strikes me as a bit funny that you wish to instruct us on word definitions when it was you just a day or two ago who wished to define "tradition" as "truth".

Your proof of your definition was that variously "instructions" and "teachings" were substituted for "tradtion". And the instructions and teachings were true.

Not very convincing.