Praying to the dead - conjuring the dead

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
Please cite the verse(s) that define all prayer as worship.

Rev.4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

This is one example of prayer--worship: "giving the 'worth' of. He is worthy; He alone is worthy.

It is needless to cite every example of prayer in the Bible. But every example of prayer in the Bible, whether of praise, thanksgiving, or of a simple request is always done is an attitude of worship. Check Hannah's request in 1Samuel chapter one. The word "worship" isn't even used, but it is obvious that Hannah, year by year was worshipping the Lord. It is obvious that in Hannah's request to God, and in her vow to God, that she was worshipping the Lord. Prayer is worship. Prayer is always done in an attitude of worship. Jesus condemned that prayer that was not done in an attitude of worship.

Mat.6:5-8
5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Verse 5: Don't pray just to be heard of men: nice flowery prayers that cause others to say: "Oh, he really knows how to pray."

Verse 6: Pray to your Father alone, in secret. In other words worship him!

Verse 7: Don't be like the Catholics and their rosary, who use vain repetions and think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. This is not prayer. It is not worship.

Verse 8: Again the emphasis. Don't be like them. They don't know the true meaning of worship.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by JFS:
Round and round we go... And you are accusing us of having intentions we do not have based on your understanding of a term we use. When we offer our understanding of the term you still proceed to tell us what our intentions are inspite of what we say our intentions are. I believe that is false witness isn't it? It seems to me that what you really disagree with is that we petition people who you believe cannot hear our petitions. Oh well.

Can you offer any proof, any Scriptural evidence, that dead people can hear your prayers. You make Mary into a God. Either your a polytheist or she is a fourth member of the trinity?? Consider: One billion Catholics worldwide. They all pray to Mary, all around the world. Is Mary omnipresent? Mary can only be in one place at one time. Is Mary omniscient? Can she know who is praying to her at all times? You have ascribed to Mary attributes that belong to God alone. You have made her omniscient and omnipresent. You have made her God. That is blasphemy. That is idolatry.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
DHK, it strikes me as a bit funny that you wish to instruct us on word definitions when it was you just a day or two ago who wished to define "tradition" as "truth".

Your proof of your definition was that variously "instructions" and "teachings" were substituted for "tradtion". And the instructions and teachings were true.

Not very convincing.

Not very convincing?? The translators of the Bible translated the word as teaching or instruction themselves. It was translated that way straight out of the original languages. Just because you like to stick to the KJV 100% of the time doesn't mean it is always right.
DHK

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
Rev.4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

This is one example of prayer--worship: "giving the 'worth' of. He is worthy; He alone is worthy.

This verse says that the elders worshiped. It does not say that they prayed. Nor does it say that all prayer is worship.

It is needless to cite every example of prayer in the Bible. But every example of prayer in the Bible, whether of praise, thanksgiving, or of a simple request is always done is an attitude of worship.

Without citing every example and showing me that the verse indicates an attitude of worship, this is merely speculation on your part.

Prayer is always done in an attitude of worship. Jesus condemned that prayer that was not done in an attitude of worship.

You are reading into the Scripture.

Jesus was saying it is hypocritical to put on a show of praying. This again does not say that all prayer is worship.


Mat.6:5-8
5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Verse 5: Don't pray just to be heard of men: nice flowery prayers that cause others to say: "Oh, he really knows how to pray."

I agree, but that is not to say that all prayer is worship.

Verse 6: Pray to your Father alone, in secret. In other words worship him!

To say, "pray in secret" does not say all prayer is worship.

Verse 7: Don't be like the Catholics and their rosary, who use vain repetions and think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. This is not prayer. It is not worship.

Back to reading hearts and attitudes are we?

Verse 8: Again the emphasis. Don't be like them. They don't know the true meaning of worship.
DHK

DHK, again, this verse says nothing even remotely like "all prayer is worship".

Come on. If it is so cut and dry that all prayer is worship, you should be albe to do better than this.

 

[BrianT]

Prayer *can* worshipful, but prayer isn't inherently worshipful. To "pray" is an old English term that means to make a request, to entreat. E.g.: "I pray thee, pass thine potatoes hither, I beseech thee." You mentioned the prayer forum. Good example. Everytime someone asks someone else to pray for them, they are in fact technically "praying" to that person to "pray" to God on their behalf.

Yes, dictionaries are our friends.

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
Not very convincing?? The translators of the Bible translated the word as teaching or instruction themselves. It was translated that way straight out of the original languages. Just because you like to stick to the KJV 100% of the time doesn't mean it is always right.
DHK

No, not very convincing.

That the words traditions, teachings, and instructions are used does not convince me that "tradition simply means truth".

ESL?

 

[BrianT]

Prayer is worship. If you are praying to Mary you are worshipping her.

Are these worship in the KJV?

Gen 12:13 Say, I pray thee, thou [art] my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.
Gen 13:8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdmen and thy herdmen; for we [be] brethren.
Gen 13:9 [Is] not the whole land before thee? separate thyself, I pray thee, from me: if [thou wilt take] the left hand, then I will go to the right; or if [thou depart] to the right hand, then I will go to the left.
Gen 16:2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
Gen 19:7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
Gen 19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as [is] good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
Gen 23:13 And he spake unto Ephron in the audience of the people of the land, saying, But if thou [wilt give it], I pray thee, hear me: I will give thee money for the field; take [it] of me, and I will bury my dead there.
Gen 24:2 And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh:

I have several hundred more. Do you want to see them?

 

[JFS]

Can you offer any proof, any Scriptural evidence, that dead people can hear your prayers. You make Mary into a God. Either your a polytheist or she is a fourth member of the trinity?? Consider: One billion Catholics worldwide. They all pray to Mary, all around the world. Is Mary omnipresent? Mary can only be in one place at one time. Is Mary omniscient? Can she know who is praying to her at all times? You have ascribed to Mary attributes that belong to God alone. You have made her omniscient and omnipresent. You have made her God. That is blasphemy. That is idolatry.

DHK

Because I am not so articulate I will differ you to the following web page. It can provide a far better explanation on this subject than I can.

Prayer to the Saints

Further there is scriptual evidence that is provide in this link. Somehow though I think you will dismiss it.

God Bless you

John

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
Prayer is worship.

DHK, it would seem that a great many Baptist churches don't see all prayer as worship.

Do an internet word search using: Baptist, prayer and worship.

Look at the many instances on Baptist church sites that use the words "prayer and worship".

If all prayer is worship, why the use of both words like that?

Obviouosly those Baptists don't agree with you.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BrianT:
I have several hundred more. Do you want to see them?

Read further back in the thread Brian. We already discussed the secular meanings of the word "pray" or "prayer." We are discussing the Biblical and theological concept of "prayer" as used in the Bible.
DHK

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BrianT:
I have several hundred more. Do you want to see them?

Read further back in the thread Brian. We already discussed the secular meanings of the word "pray" or "prayer." We are discussing the Biblical and theological concept of "prayer" as used in the Bible.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Uh, the examples I gave were from the Bible... See the beginning of the first example where it says "Gen 12:13"? That means the book of Genesis, chapter 12, verse 13.

So while you're rereading those examples from the Bible, remember someone on this thread recently said "We use the Bible as the final authority in all things of faith and practice. We do not define things according to others' definitions, but according to how the Bible defines it. If your definition does not match up with the Bible then it is wrong. Pure and simple."

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:
Prayer is worship.

DHK, it would seem that a great many Baptist churches don't see all prayer as worship.

Do an internet word search using: Baptist, prayer and worship.

Look at the many instances on Baptist church sites that use the words "prayer and worship".

If all prayer is worship, why the use of both words like that?

Obviouosly those Baptists don't agree with you. </font>[/QUOTE]Let me clarify myself as I have done before. Technically not all prayer is worship. I listed the various elements of prayer and then gave some examples. What I did emphasize is that all prayer is done in a worshipful attitude. Thus there is always worship in prayer. I hope that clarifies my position in respect to worship and prayer. It is in this respect that I say that prayer is always worship, meaning that prayer is always done in a worshipful attitude.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BrianT:
Uh, the examples I gave were from the Bible... See the beginning of the first example where it says "Gen 12:13"? That means the book of Genesis, chapter 12, verse 13.

Yes you did Brian. You also ignored what I said. We are discussing the theological concept of prayer, not the secular use of the word.
DHK

 

[CatholicConvert]

DHK

YOU are a HOWL!!!

You accuse us of tampering with the word of God, and then you turn around in your post and insist that the word "eklessia" means a local assembly. Talk about adding definitions to fit your preconceptions!!

Luther, he who added the word "alone" to faith, would be PROUD OF YA, MY BOY!!!

Brother Ed -- Still chuckling.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by DHK:
Yes you did Brian. You also ignored what I said. We are discussing the theological concept of prayer, not the secular use of the word.

DHK! Reread YOUR OWN QUOTE. You said "We do not define things according to others' definitions, but according to how the Bible defines it." My list gave the definition of pray according to how the Bible defines it. Now you're saying that definition doesn't count, even though that's how the Bible defines it??? Just because the Bible's definition disagrees with your own preconception??? So much for the rest of your quote: "If your definition does not match up with the Bible then it is wrong. Pure and simple." Maybe you should change that to: "If your definition does not match up with the Bible then simply call the Bible's definition 'secular' so you can disagree with the Bible. Pure and simple."

Now you're saying it has to do with "worshipful attitude"? C'mon DHK, first you backpedal and then you are able to magically discern the hearts and minds of others who pray to saints. Sorry, but where I come from that's called 'loosing the debate and being too proud to admit it'.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BrianT:
Now you're saying it has to do with "worshipful attitude"? C'mon DHK, first you backpedal and then you are able to magically discern the hearts and minds of others who pray to saints. Sorry, but where I come from that's called 'loosing the debate and being too proud to admit it'.

I pray thee Brian, answer me this one simple question: Are we or are we not dealing with the matter of prayer, in the same respect that Jesus taught his disciples to pray?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
You accuse us of tampering with the word of God, and then you turn around in your post and insist that the word "eklessia" means a local assembly.

Laugh all you like Ed. The definition of ekklesia is assembly or congregation. Chooe whatever lexicon you want. That is the definition. May I clarify it for you. An assembly, by virtue of it being an assembly must be local. Since I was not translating any particular verse from God's holy word I don't hardly see how you can falsely accuse me for tampering with the Word of God. What has Luther got to do with it anyway. Your the one that has become the laughing stock here.
I give you a definition, expand on it a bit, and you go haywire. A church is an assembly--always, and always local--by virtue of its own definition. You cannot have an unassembled assembly Ed. Think about it.
DHK

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by DHK:
I pray thee Brian, answer me this one simple question: Are we or are we not dealing with the matter of prayer, in the same respect that Jesus taught his disciples to pray?

I thought we were discussing prayer as the Bible defines it, the whole Bible, not just your preconceptions thrust onto a single passage. But I can definitely see why you don't want to use the whole Bible in this discussion.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by DHK:
The definition of ekklesia is assembly or congregation. Chooe whatever lexicon you want. That is the definition. May I clarify it for you. An assembly, by virtue of it being an assembly must be local.

This is easily disproven simply by looking at scripture, where "ekklesia" is used but NOT referring to a "local" assembly, but the church as a whole. Or don't these scriptures count either, for determining defintion?

 

[BobRyan]

DHK --
I pray thee Brian, answer me this one simple question: Are we or are we not dealing with the matter of prayer, in the same respect that Jesus taught his disciples to pray?

"And the Disciples came to Him asking 'Please teach us to pray'. And Jesus answered them saying, 'when you pray, pray in this manner... Friend Please pass the sugar ' ".

No wait a minute! He said "Pray in THIS way - saying 'when you pray, pray in this manner TO your dead ancestors and religious leaders... Dearly departed ancestor we offer incense and light candles before your altar today and promise to INCREASE devotion TO YOU if you will grant us our request..."

No, no - that's not it. Hmmm let me think - EXACTLY how DID JESUS Himself Define and Describe Prayer it??

Now this is going to be "very hard" because we might have to use the Bible ITSELF to define and describe prayer.

Matt 6
5 ""When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
6 ""But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
7 ""And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.
8 ""So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.
9 "" Pray, then, in this way: "Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
10 " Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.
11 " Give us this day our daily bread.
12 "And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 "And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.]'
14 "" For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 ""But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Now that is "odd" - Not Once does Jesus suppose we are to pray to "anyone" but the Father.

Is Jesus to be "trusted"? Can we REALLY rely upon our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to TELL us about Prayer?

Well why not pray to "others" - those that are NOT God? Why not simply "make stuff up"? Why just stick with Christ's instruction when we can ADD to it as it pleases us?

Why not setup a few "altars" to some dead ancestors, church leaders, highly respected people of the past and offer up to them incense, candles and prayers? Why leave this to the Buddhists and pagan alone?

Or maybe -- as Christians -- we should "just follow our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ".

In Christ,

Bob