Pre-Trib Rapture; Scriptural or Dispensational Fiction

[HankD]

The destruction of Jerusalem was more terrible than anything that the world has ever witnessed,

Spurgeon, of course, knew nothing of the future world wars yet to come.

WWII with 20 million perishing (6 million of them Jews in hollocaust concentration camps, pogroms, etc).

Not to mention upwards of a total of a million Japanese deaths either from the Nagasaki/Hiroshima blasts and/or those who died of radiation poisoning and other nuclear effect for years to come.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

"no nor ever shall be".

Surely WWI was a greater disaster that the destruction of Jerusalem.
Therefore the sack of Jerusalem was NOT the Great Tribulation because WWII outdid it.

Not only that Jesus also said

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time.

Therefore "The" Great Tribulation has to be more of a disaster than the global wide flood of Noah.


HankD

 

[OldRegular]

John Gill ( a pre-mill dispie)

John Gill was premillennial. I believe that he considered that only the Saints would inhabit the earth during that period. I think you incorrectly state that he was dispensational.

 

[OldRegular]

John Gill ( a pre-mill dispie)

John Gill was premillennial. I believe that he considered that only the Saints would inhabit the earth during that period. I think you incorrectly state that he was dispensational.

 

[OldRegular]

John Gill ( a pre-mill dispie)

John Gill was premillennial. I believe that he considered that only the Saints would inhabit the earth during that period. I think you incorrectly state that he was dispensational.

 

[OldRegular]

Dispensationalists like to talk about the horrors of the Great Tribulation but fail to describe it. People die horrible deaths all the time and Christians can only die once. Nero coated Christians with pitch and used them to light his orgies. Christians in the Roman Empire were fed to wild beasts. During the Inquisition they were tortured and burned at the stake. During the Reformation many were burned on the stake. So what is it about the Great Tribulation that makes it so GREAT?

 

[OldRegular]

In the Book of Revelation the wrath of God begins in Chapter 16:

I believe it starts in Chapter 6.

Revelation 6:12-17
12. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[Ed Edwards]

NUMBERS - lotz of Gentiles will die - some 5/9 of the population, probably more. We are talking about BILLIONS of people killed. 5/9 of the current poupulation of 6.4 Billion is 3.6 Billion people.

The Tribulation Period Judgment is on the Gentiles (the first half of Daniel's 70th week). The Great Tribulation Judgment Period (the second half of Daniel's 70th week) is a JUDGMENT on the Gentiles. During the Great Tribulation Period the Jewish/Israeli saved will be protected by the very hand of God - no Great Tribulation on the Jews. During the Great Tribulation Period the Gentile saved shall be in heaven at the awards ceremony AKA The Judgment Seat of Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:10 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For we must all appeare before the iudgement seate of Christ, that euery man may receiue the things which are done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or euill.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Pretrib Rapture2: Scriptural Truth

Pretrib Rapture2: Scriptural Truth

Keeping Tribulations straight
​

Joh 16:33 (KJV1611 Edition):
These things I haue spoken vnto you,
that in me ye might haue peace, in the world
ye shall haue tribulation: but be of good cheare,
I haue ouercome the world.

Here is my essay from the early 1990s about
Tribulation:

---------------------------------
The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, affliction, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition

​

WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointments,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity, torture
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's expulsion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom

​

WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, atheists, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millennial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews
scattered among the Gentiles
​

WHO: dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, atheists, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period"
of those ruled by the Antichrist

​

(AKA: Wrath of the Lamb /Revelation 6:17/ )
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period"
of those ruled by the Antrichrist

​

WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Note that #1, #2, and #3 are measured in travail units;
#4 and #5 are measured in time units.

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompense in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:
---------------------------------


These things were written in the early 1990s when I had immersed myself in the Spirit in the many scriptures about the Tribulations. If your spouse died recently you have Tribulation. If you every buried one of your children killed in one of the wars, police actions, peace-keeping actions, etc - you have Tribulation. If you have lost a child - you have Tribulation. if you have cancer - you have Tribulation. Etc. Etc.

in the world
ye shall haue tribulation:

But
The Lord is
BIGGER THAN YOUR TRIBULATION



​

 

[Me4Him]

They haven't yet!:sleeping_2:

Lu 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.


Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Re 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Would you care to explain how Satan could be "cast down" while Jesus was on the earth,

but still remain in heaven to accuse us,

Until the start of the Tribulations and then be cast down again and not allowed back into heaven???

You don't/won't understand the scripture until you can "reconcile" all contradictions that "APPEAR" to be in the scriptures.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Me4Him: // You don't/won't understand the scripture until you can "reconcile" all contradictions that "APPEAR" to be in the scriptures. //


Amen, Brother Me4Him -- Preach it :thumbs:

And my signature following shows how to enhance one's understanding apparent contradictions in the scripture.

More about Tribulations and other Eschatology Scripture truths is found at:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1343394&posted=1#post1343394

 

[Ed Edwards]

DOES Paul actual saying 1 Thess. 4:13-18 will be occur seven years earlier prior 'Coming'??

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

No.

That is what God says through Daniel and what God says through John. Note that what God says through Paul agrees with what what God says through Daniel and what God says through John. God is really cool like that.

 

[Me4Him]

That is what God says through Daniel and what God says through John. Note that what God says through Paul agrees with what what God says through Daniel and what God says through John. God is really cool like that.

Point well made. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :thumbs:

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

Then therefore, you not able answer the question on 1 Thess. 4:13-18. Apostle Paul never saying of this passage will be occur before tribulation. Neither Paul saying our gathering together will be seven years earlier prior Christ's "coming" in his 13 epistles.

Ed, I know you well for 7 years.

You make outline time line of Matthew 24.

The time line according to Matthew 24 (Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25, Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. Church age continue < = you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31;44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30

You should be aware that, many pretrib baptists of baptistboard do not agree with you that Matt. 24:31 is pretrib rapture. Because they knew verse 31 is context with verse 29 thru 30 talking about His coming.

Also, you do actual twist Christ's lecture of Matthew 24:4-31 in the wrong chronological order.

Yoou put Matthew 24:31 in the first place before Matthew 24:21-28, that is not what Christ was actual saying it.

Also, you cut Matthew 24:31 out of verse 29-30 into different events. That mean you are against Christ's sayings.

Christ does NOT say of Matt. 24:31 will be occur BEFORE tribulation. But, Christ told us, our gathering together will be AFTER tribulation - Matthew 24:29-31.

Importantly, we have to read Matthew 24:29-31 in King James Version carefully:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. AND he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Notice important words- "and" in this passage as context. It means it comes follow in the order of the event focus on His coming. You cannot cut with sisscor by take verse 31 out of its context with verse 29-30, when Christ was continue speak on his coming. You actual twist Christ's lecture into the wrong order or time. Your own outline of Matthew 24 goes against Christ's lecture.

Notice Matthew 24:31 says, "NOW learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh."

Notice important key word of verse 32 says, "NOW".

Therefore, Christ spoken of other subject after he described of Matthew 24:29-31 focus on His coming, then he start to spoken of other subject as he explained on parable with a example of his coming. Yet Verse 32 is still talking about Second Advent.

See? You cannot separate or divorce verse 31 from verse 29 to 30 when Christ was continue speaking of His coming relates with words -"and" in the same passage.

Therefore, Christ was clearly telling us that our gathering together will be AFTER tribulation is posttribulational. You cannot argue with me. Argue with Christ's lecture.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Grasshopper]

Spurgeon, of course, knew nothing of the future world wars yet to come.

WWII with 20 million perishing (6 million of them Jews in hollocaust concentration camps, pogroms, etc).

Not to mention upwards of a total of a million Japanese deaths either from the Nagasaki/Hiroshima blasts and/or those who died of radiation poisoning and other nuclear effect for years to come.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

"no nor ever shall be".

Surely WWI was a greater disaster that the destruction of Jerusalem.
Therefore the sack of Jerusalem was NOT the Great Tribulation because WWII outdid it.

Not only that Jesus also said

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time.

Therefore "The" Great Tribulation has to be more of a disaster than the global wide flood of Noah.


HankD

I quote:

Jesus is utilizing in Matthew 24:21 the common Old Testament figure of speech: "ever was/nor ever shall be." Scripture tells us in 1 Kings 3:12 that there was "no king like Solomon before or after him." Such statements are then repeated in 2 Kings 18:5-6 of Hezekiah and in 2 Kings 23:25 of Josiah. Obviously, they can't all be the greatest King there ever was nor ever shall be. (And, of course, Jesus Christ surpasses even Solomon -- Matt. 12:42). Furthermore, this same Old Testament idea of "never will be again" is employed of various judgments that have already been fulfilled such as locusts in Egypt (Ex. 10:12-15; cf. Joel 1:1-4), a cry in Egypt (Ex. 11:6), and judgment upon O.T. Israel (Ez. 5:9; Joel 2:2). The Ezekiel 5:9 passage is especially instructive to us, for it states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest judgment God had ever brought upon a nation, past or future. Therefore, we recognize that the expression "ever was/nor ever shall be" is a common Hebraic idiom meaning "very great" or "very much."


Eze 5:9 And I will do in you that which I have not done, and the like of which I will never do again, because of all your abominations.

 

[webdog]

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time.

Therefore "The" Great Tribulation has to be more of a disaster than the global wide flood of Noah.

Excellent point. Drowning will seem pleasant compared to what will occur during those 7 years, particularly the last 3.5.

 

[Amy.G]

No.

That is what God says through Daniel and what God says through John. Note that what God says through Paul agrees with what what God says through Daniel and what God says through John. God is really cool like that.

I have a question. Did God send the prophets to Israel to teach them the future of the church? If so, why? And how could they possibly understand? Or did God send the prophets to Israel to teach and warn them of things to come for the Jewish people?

 

[webdog]

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time.

Therefore "The" Great Tribulation has to be more of a disaster than the global wide flood of Noah.

Just thought of something else (I know, dangerous ) If the great tribulation is worse than the flood, this would be a certainty the rapture would occur before the GT, as the righteous on the earth were taken during the flood. This text would then support a rapture, as the judgement is against the wicked, not the righteous.

 

[Amy.G]

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time.

Therefore "The" Great Tribulation has to be more of a disaster than the global wide flood of Noah.

Here's another thought.

If the tribulation is worse than the flood, in which only 8 survived, then to be worse would mean that no one survived. How could you call that "tribulation"? It would really be sudden death for everyone. No tribulation involved.

 

[Grasshopper]

Here's another thought.

If the tribulation is worse than the flood, in which only 8 survived, then to be worse would mean that no one survived. How could you call that "tribulation"? It would really be sudden death for everyone. No tribulation involved.

Amy please, no common sense allowed in this thread!

As pointed out earlier, what is the purpose of these verses is this is a global event that kills millions:

Mat 24:16 Then let those in Judea flee into the mountains.
Mat 24:17 Let him on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house;
Mat 24:18 nor let him in the field turn back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe to those who are with child, and to those who give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray that your flight is not in the winter, nor on the sabbath day;


Looks like a local judgment to me. If you can hop on a bike and ride to the mountains to avoid this calamity then just how "global" is it? Outside of a 1st century context, what does the sabbath and those who have babies have to do with it?

Spurgeon

"The Christians in Jerusalem and the surrounding towns and villages, "in Judea ", availed themselves of the first opportunity for eluding the Roman armies, and fled to the mountain city of Pella, in Perea, where they were preserved from the general destruction which overthrew the Jews. There was no time to spare before the final investment of the guilty city; the man "on the house-top" could "not come down to take anything out of his house", and the man "in the field" could not "return back, to take his clothes." They must flee to the mountains in the greatest haste the moment that they saw "Jerusalem compassed with armies "(Luke 21:20)."

Philip Schaaf

"A few years afterwards followed the destruction of Jerusalem, which must have made an overpowering impression and broken the last ties which bound Jewish Christianity to the old theocracy. . . .
"The awfiul catastrophe of the destruction of the Jewish theocracy must have produced the profoundest sensation among the Christians. . . . It was the greatest calamity of Judaism and a great benefit to Christianity; a refutation of the one, a vindication . . . of the other. It separated them forever. . . . Henceforth the heathen could no longer look upon Christianity as a mere sect of Judaism, but must regard and treat it as a new, peculiar religion. The destruction of Jerusalem, therefore, marks that momentous crisis at which the Christian church as a whole burst forth forever from the chrysalis of Judaism, awoke to a sense of maturity, and in government and worship at once took its independent stand before the world. (1:196,403-4.)


Mat 24:34 Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled.

 

[Me4Him]

Amy please, no common sense allowed in this thread!

As pointed out earlier, what is the purpose of these verses is this is a global event that kills millions:



Looks like a local judgment to me. If you can hop on a bike and ride to the mountains to avoid this calamity then just how "global" is it?

Jer 25:30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.

31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.

32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.

33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

Mt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.