Pre-Trib Rapture; Scriptural or Dispensational Fiction

[Grasshopper]

Jer 25:30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth. 31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.

32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.

33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

Perhaps taking verses in context will help enlighten you also you might want to consider a word study on "earth".

John Gill
Jeremiah 25 - INTRODUCTION TO JEREMIAH 25
This chapter contains a prophecy of the destruction of Judea by the king of Babylon; and also of Babylon itself, after the Jews' captivity of seventy years; and likewise of all the nations round about.

Adam Clarke
Jeremiah 25 -
This chapter contains a summary of the judgments denounced by Jeremiah against Judah, Babylon, and many other nations.

Mt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened

John Lightfoot

God lengthened the time for the sake of the elect, before the destruction of the city; and in the destruction, for their sakes he shortened it. Compare with these words before us 2Pe_3:9; "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise," etc. It was certainly very hard with the elect that were inhabitants of the city, who underwent all kinds of misery with the besieged, where the plague and sword raged so violently that there were not living enough to bury the dead; and the famine was so great, that a mother ate her son (perhaps the wife of Doeg Ben Joseph, of whom see such a story in Babylonian Joma). And it was also hard enough with those elect who fled to the mountains, being driven out of house, living in the open air, and wanting necessaries for food: their merciful God and Father, therefore, took care of them, shortening the time of their misery, and cutting off the reprobates with a speedier destruction; lest, if their stroke had been longer continued, the elect should too far have partaken of their misery.
The Rabbins dream that God shortened the day on which wicked king Ahab died, and that ten hours; lest he should have been honoured with mourning.


You never answered my question, according to your link http://www.daysofgod.com/ (3rd chart down)who was the antichrist in the 1st century? Who were the two witnesses?

 

[webdog]

Here's another thought.

If the tribulation is worse than the flood, in which only 8 survived, then to be worse would mean that no one survived. How could you call that "tribulation"? It would really be sudden death for everyone. No tribulation involved.

All the wicked do die Amy, just like the flood. The point is, the righteous are saved, the wicked die. All the wicked will die in the Great Tribulation as they did in the flood. Jesus said so as in the days of Noah...

Just so happens to be there were only 8 righteous at the time. It's hardly worse that there are many more today

 

[Grasshopper]

All the wicked do die Amy, just like the flood. The point is, the righteous are saved, the wicked die. All the wicked will die in the Great Tribulation as they did in the flood. Jesus said so as in the days of Noah...

Just so happens to be there were only 8 righteous at the time. It's hardly worse that there are many more today

Then why flee to the mountains?

 

[webdog]

Then why flee to the mountains?

Who's fleeing to the mountains?

 

[OldRegular]

No.

That is what God says through Daniel and what God says through John. Note that what God says through Paul agrees with what what God says through Daniel and what God says through John. God is really cool like that.

Ed

Unless you can support your post with Scripture I would say you are wrong on all counts.

 

[Me4Him]

You never answered my question, according to your link http://www.daysofgod.com/ (3rd chart down)who was the antichrist in the 1st century? Who were the two witnesses?

Sorry, I didn't see the question.

Who did Jesus ID as being the "Son of perdition".

Ge 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed;

Are these seeds "plural" or "Singular"???

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Who are the two witnesses who appeared with Jesus on the Mt of transfiguration??

One prophecy can have a "DUAL" fulfillment, one "Spiritual" to cover Jesus's first coming, one "Literal" to cover his second coming,

"Preterist" see the spiritual, Church sees the "literal", few see both sides of the prophecy.

Day of the lord is when the messiah comes to Jerusalem, he's been there once, lacking "SPIRITUAL VISION" they didn't recognize him, but literal vision will be all they need when he returns.

 

[OldRegular]

Just thought of something else (I know, dangerous ) If the great tribulation is worse than the flood, this would be a certainty the rapture would occur before the GT, as the righteous on the earth were taken during the flood. This text would then support a rapture, as the judgement is against the wicked, not the righteous.

As has been pointed out ad infinitum the great tribulation Jesus Christ was talking about in Matthew was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 Ad and has nothing to do with the so-called rapture. Please note that jesus christ was asked 3 questions by the disciples in Matthew 24. He answered all. Only those with spiritual discernment can understand.

Matthew 24:1-4
1. And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying,
[a] Tell us, when shall these things be? and
what shall be the sign of thy coming, and
[c] of the end of the world?
4. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

It appears that many have been deceived by the teaching of Darby and Scofield!:tear: :tear:

 

[OldRegular]

Day of the lord is when the messiah comes to Jerusalem, he's been there once, lacking "SPIRITUAL VISION" they didn't recognize him, but literal vision will be all they need when he returns.

And just what Scripture do you base that astonishing observation upon? Or is it indeed a New Revelation from God?

 

[OldRegular]

Who's fleeing to the mountains?

The Gospel of Matthew tells us : Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: [Matthew 24:16].:laugh:

History tells us that Christians in Jerusalem were warned [apparently supernaturally] to leave the city. They went to a place called Pella.:sleep:

 

[OldRegular]

Here's another thought.

If the tribulation is worse than the flood, in which only 8 survived, then to be worse would mean that no one survived. How could you call that "tribulation"? It would really be sudden death for everyone. No tribulation involved.

Great point Amy! Not that any dispensationalist will pay attention.

 

[Grasshopper]

Who's fleeing to the mountains?

Mat 24:16 Then let those in Judea flee into the mountains

 

[Grasshopper]

Sorry, I didn't see the question.

Who did Jesus ID as being the "Son of perdition".

Ge 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed;

Are these seeds "plural" or "Singular"???

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So the antichrist of the 1st century was Satan?

Who are the two witnesses who appeared with Jesus on the Mt of transfiguration??

Moses and Elijah

One prophecy can have a "DUAL" fulfillment, one "Spiritual" to cover Jesus's first coming, one "Literal" to cover his second coming,

Who decides which ones have dual fulfillments? Why not triple?

"Preterist" see the spiritual, Church sees the "literal", few see both sides of the prophecy.

The destruction of Jerusalem was hardly a spiritual event. It was very much literal.

Day of the lord is when the messiah comes to Jerusalem, he's been there once, lacking "SPIRITUAL VISION" they didn't recognize him, but literal vision will be all they need when he returns.

Thus the dispies have the literal being last and most important.

1Co 15:46 But not the spiritual first, but the natural; afterward the spiritual.

 

[Me4Him]

So the antichrist of the 1st century was Satan?

Judas was ID as the "Son of perdition".

The "war" between the two "SONS" (Son of God, Son of Satan) end when Jesus destroys the AC (son of perdition) with the brighness of his coming,

but the war between the two "FATHERS", (God/Satan) doesn't end until after the MK and at the GWT.

Satan is only bound up when Jesus returns to destroy Satan's son.

Moses and Elijah

yep.

Who decides which ones have dual fulfillments? Why not triple?

because there's only two coming of Jesus "TO THE EARTH", in the rapture we meet him in the air, return to heaven.

The destruction of Jerusalem was hardly a spiritual event. It was very much literal.

Do you think God is going to allow the rebuild temple where the ABOD take place to remain standing, or destroyed as in 70AD???

Jer 25:33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

Mr 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved:

Thus the dispies have the literal being last and most important.

1Co 15:46 But not the spiritual first, but the natural; afterward the spiritual.

The first 69 weeks of Daniel's prophecy was "literal" (law and prophets)

Then "Spiritual", Jesus/Comforter/Holy Ghost/Church.

The last week of Daniel's prophecy (trib) is "literal", (Law and prophet/two witness/Moses (law giver) Elijah, (Prophet).

Leadership by both the Law and prophets and the "Comforter" (Jesus) can't function at the same time, same time frame, too many contradiction between them,

There's quite a list of them but an easy one to understand is that Satan must flee from Saints indwelled by the "COMFORTER", but with the rapture, the Comforter/church is gone,

As "Chastisement", satan is free to attack/prevail over those who become saints during the trib.

Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

 

[Amy.G]

Was the prophecy that was given to Daniel for the Jews or the church?

I think it was for the Jews, since they are the ones that God sent the prophets to. So why should we think that the 70th week of Daniel has anything to do with the church? What purpose would God have in telling Daniel to prophesy to the Jews about the church, of which they could not have possibly been able to understand?

The 70th week must have been for the Jews and has nothing to do with the church.

 

[HankD]

If the tribulation is worse than the flood, in which only 8 survived, then to be worse would mean that no one survived. How could you call that "tribulation"? It would really be sudden death for everyone. No tribulation involved.

Because the flood was sudden death for everyone outside of the ark.

In the great tribulation extreme suffering goes on for a protracted time with no escape by death until the appointed time.

Revelation 8
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.


RE: The start of the wrath of God:

I believe it starts in Chapter 6.

Revelation 6:12-17
12. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

This IMO is a generalized statement and even has a future tense “who shall be able to stand”

In Revelation 16:1 the command goes out in the imperative;
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.​

I quote:

Jesus is utilizing in Matthew 24:21 the common Old Testament figure of speech: "ever was/nor ever shall be." Scripture tells us in 1 Kings 3:12 that there was "no king like Solomon before or after him." Such statements are then repeated in 2 Kings 18:5-6 of Hezekiah and in 2 Kings 23:25 of Josiah. Obviously, they can't all be the greatest King there ever was nor ever shall be. (And, of course, Jesus Christ surpasses even Solomon -- Matt. 12:42). Furthermore, this same Old Testament idea of "never will be again" is employed of various judgments that have already been fulfilled such as locusts in Egypt (Ex. 10:12-15; cf. Joel 1:1-4), a cry in Egypt (Ex. 11:6), and judgment upon O.T. Israel (Ez. 5:9; Joel 2:2). The Ezekiel 5:9 passage is especially instructive to us, for it states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest judgment God had ever brought upon a nation, past or future. Therefore, we recognize that the expression "ever was/nor ever shall be" is a common Hebraic idiom meaning "very great" or "very much."

There are exceptions to several verses “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God”, all except Jesus.

And in fact there would not be a king like Solomon even Jesus in that Jesus did not sin, nor would he ever.

So that is one way in which Jesus is/was unlike Solomon.

Personally I don’t think that in this case Jesus used a Hebraic idiom which crossed over into the koine although it does happen.


HankD

 

[Pastor Larry]

Was the prophecy that was given to Daniel for the Jews or the church?

I think it was for the Jews, since they are the ones that God sent the prophets to. So why should we think that the 70th week of Daniel has anything to do with the church? What purpose would God have in telling Daniel to prophesy to the Jews about the church, of which they could not have possibly been able to understand?

The 70th week must have been for the Jews and has nothing to do with the church.

Well said, and this is why dispensationalism is the only thing that makes sense of all of Scripture.

 

[Tom Butler]

Just thought of something else (I know, dangerous ) If the great tribulation is worse than the flood, this would be a certainty the rapture would occur before the GT, as the righteous on the earth were taken during the flood. This text would then support a rapture, as the judgment is against the wicked, not the righteous.

The flood-rapture analogy doesn't fly. The eight righteous people were not taken away from the flood. The were preserved right smack-dab in the middle of it.

 

[Allan]

The flood-rapture analogy doesn't fly. The eight righteous people were not taken away from the flood. The were preserved right smack-dab in the middle of it.

Actaully, they were shut up and away from any possible harm. Yes, there in a geographical sense not in actaully 'in' or apart of the judgment bestowed. Therefore let us ask the most interesting question, where were they? Were they not 'above' the death and destuction? Where they not in the 'heavens' (the sky) so to speak- because the water rose even above the mountain tops. Were they were removed from the wrath that was sent by God to destroy the ungodly.

The correlation that can be seen is interesting to say the least. I find Jesus own words about "many are called but few are chosen" to be an interesting correlation to Naoh's account as well. Where many were called but few were saved. But agian this is speculative imagry.

Just a fun note here though. If you check you scripture you will find that only Noah was called rightous, not the other seven.

Gen 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Though scripture does say he was the 8th person on the Ark:

2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

And then here is another strange thing, God did not remember the 8 after the flood to cause the waters to go down but only Noah.

Gen 8:1 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that [was] with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged;

 

[Me4Him]

Was the prophecy that was given to Daniel for the Jews or the church?

I think it was for the Jews, since they are the ones that God sent the prophets to. So why should we think that the 70th week of Daniel has anything to do with the church? What purpose would God have in telling Daniel to prophesy to the Jews about the church, of which they could not have possibly been able to understand?

The 70th week must have been for the Jews and has nothing to do with the church.

Obviously, if the 69th week ended with the messiah being "cut off" and the 70th week doesn't begin until after the "Messiah/church" leaves the world, (rapture)

the church is not involved in Daniel's prophecy, which it "Very clearly states", "THY PEOPLE", Daniel's people, Jews.

Jesus/church was a "mystery" not revealed to Israel, clues about it are there, (OT) but have to be "Spiritually deciphered".

The disciples ask Jesus when he would restore Israel, he said it wasn't for "THEM" to know,

But it is for us, there's a two thousand year (two days) gap between the 69th and 70th week.

Ho 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

with Israel (her branch) prophesied to be the last generation, and six days of work, another 'Day of rest" (MK) prophesied for the world,

Israel could only be restored within a generation of the end of that sixth day, 1948 is well within that time frame,

The 3th day (from Jesus) is the 7th day, or MK, when Jesus promise he would be back on the earth in the "FIRST RESURRECTION" and we would "ALL" live in his sight. (live and reign)

Everything is coming together, precisely as prophesied, even the "New world Order". (Banking Empire/can't buy/sell)

Got your bags packed??? :laugh:

 

[webdog]

Mat 24:16 Then let those in Judea flee into the mountains

I know the Scripture, I'm asking you "who" are fleeing to the mountains.