Pre-Trib Rapture; Scriptural or Dispensational Fiction

[Marcia]

Hello All,

I've been reading this thread with much interest for quite some time.

What amazes me is that no one seems to be answering the actual question originally posed:

"Can someone, anyone provide one passage of Scripture that definitively supports a pretribulation "rapture", that is the snatching away of the Church from earth, secret or otherwise." Seems to me much of what has been said in this thread is tangential to the original question, rather than answering it directly.

Equally amazing is that no one has put forth one of the most compelling arguments from the Bible about the issue.

Why is that?

I have a response, and tried to type it in, but it exceeded the forum software's limit on the number of characters allowed in one post.

Perhaps I could post it here in parts?

Please do! Are you thinking of Thessalonians?

 

[Marcia]

You are correct. :thumbs:

It seems like some keep trying to apply OT prophecies to the church. I think the 70th week prophecy was given to the Jews for their warning and had nothing to do with the church. Especially since Jesus made referrence to Daniel when He was telling the disciples about the things that would take place in Israel in the destruction.


As a side note, the only time Daniel is spoken of in the NT, is by Jesus. Paul makes no mention of the prophecies of Daniel when he is speaking to the church.
The only time the "abomination of desolation" is spoken of in the NT is by Jesus. Paul makes no mention of it when speaking to the church.

The only time a tribulation "period" is spoken of in the NT is by Jesus. Paul does not speak of a 7 year tribulation period in his letters to the church.

There seems to be pattern here. Jesus was speaking to the Jews, because He came to the Jews. Paul is speaking to the church. I do not see that the future events that Jesus describes, regarding a "great tribulation" have anything to do with the church. They obviously are prophecies to the Jews. Why would Paul leave out this very important information? Maybe because it wasn't mean for the church????

Hi, Amy,

I was somewhat unsure of the tribulation question and pre-trib rapture until I did a study on Daniel and Revelation. It has pretty much convinced me. I've seen all the anti-pre-trip rapture arguments here over and over, all the pro amil arguments, etc. but they have not been as conclusive and persuasive as an in-depth study of Daniel and Revelation.

Also, those books that give the different end times views are helpful.

 

[Grasshopper]

Hi, Amy,

I was somewhat unsure of the tribulation question and pre-trib rapture until I did a study on Daniel and Revelation. It has pretty much convinced me. I've seen all the anti-pre-trip rapture arguments here over and over, all the pro amil arguments, etc. but they have not been as conclusive and persuasive as an in-depth study of Daniel and Revelation.

Also, those books that give the different end times views are helpful.

Well, since you have done an indepth study of Daniel(Beth Moore perhaps?), you can explain to all of us why we should assume a gap in Daniel's 70 weeks.

 

[OldRegular]

Well, since you have done an indepth study of Daniel(Beth Moore perhaps?), you can explain to all of us why we should assume a gap in Daniel's 70 weeks.

Because every time anything is said about the return of Jesus Christ some dispensationalist will parrot: What about Daniel's 70th week?:laugh: :BangHead: :tonofbricks: :sleeping_2:

 

[OldRegular]

Hello All,

I've been reading this thread with much interest for quite some time.

What amazes me is that no one seems to be answering the actual question originally posed:

"Can someone, anyone provide one passage of Scripture that definitively supports a pretribulation "rapture", that is the snatching away of the Church from earth, secret or otherwise." Seems to me much of what has been said in this thread is tangential to the original question, rather than answering it directly.

Equally amazing is that no one has put forth one of the most compelling arguments from the Bible about the issue.

Why is that?

I have a response, and tried to type it in, but it exceeded the forum software's limit on the number of characters allowed in one post.

Perhaps I could post it here in parts?

Essentially every thing that has been posted is tangential to the question for the simple reason that it cannot be answered. I would certainly like to see a compelling argument, pro or con. That being said it would approach a miracle if any discussion on this forum ever stayed on topic.

I also asked for a passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews. Same reaponse!

Some do post long responses in parts.

 

[Me4Him]

Hello All,

I've been reading this thread with much interest for quite some time.

What amazes me is that no one seems to be answering the actual question originally posed:

"Can someone, anyone provide one passage of Scripture that definitively supports a pretribulation "rapture", that is the snatching away of the Church from earth, secret or otherwise." Seems to me much of what has been said in this thread is tangential to the original question, rather than answering it directly.

Equally amazing is that no one has put forth one of the most compelling arguments from the Bible about the issue.

A close examination of scripture will reveal that it's "impossible" for the "Leadership" (Comforter) of the church to continue on into the Trib period, and remain "faithful" to the things promised to the church,

events during the trib "violate" those promises.

Israel goes back under the law and prophets system (two witnesses) which stopped with John/Jesus, and won't resume until Jesus (comforter) leaves. (rapture)

Both types of leadership can't function at the same time, same time frame.

Jas 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain (God) both yield salt water and fresh. (at the same time)

Jesus/church is the GAP between the 69th and 70th week.



Here's a few of the difference between the church and Trib period.

1
The Church is Indwelled by the Comforter.
first Corinthian 3, 16,
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God,
and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Israel was not, and will not, be indwelled by the Comforter.
Ecclesiastics 4, 1,
behold the tears of such as were oppressed,
and they had no comforter.

2
Because of the Holy Ghost presents, power is on the side of the Church.
first John 4, 4,
because greater is HE that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Because Israel had no comforter, power was on the side of their "oppressor", Satan.
Ecclesiastics 4, 1,
and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

3
Because of the presents of the Holy Ghost, Satan must Flee from Church Saints.
James 4, 7,
Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

with no comforter, Satan attacks Saints during the tribulations.
Revelations 12, 17,
And the dragon was wroth with the woman,
and went to make war with the remnant of her seed.

4
Satan can never prevail against the Church Saints.
Matthew 16, 18,
I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

However Satan does prevail against the Tribulation Saints.
Daniel 7, 21,
I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

5
The Church battles against Satan "Spiritually".
Ephesian 6, 12,
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,
but against principalities, against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Israel will physically Battle against Satan.
Revelations 13, 7,
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them.

6
God’s Rod and Staff are comfort to the church.
Psalms 23, 4,
thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

God’s Rod and Staff are Great Tribulations to Israel.
Isaiah 10, 5,
O Assyrian, the ROD of mine anger,
and the STAFF in their hand is mine indignation.

7
The church dies spiritually, presenting their bodies a living sacrifice to God.
Romans 12, 1,
that ye presents your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God.

Israel will die literally, presenting their dead bodies as a goat sacrifice.
Revelations 12, 11,
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb,
and they loved not their lifes unto the death.
Revelations 6, 9,
And when he had opened the fifth seal,
I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,

If you want a verse that plainly states a pre trib rapture, this is it.

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

 

[OldRegular]

Me4Him

I suggest writing fiction. LeHaye made a fortune doing the same.

 

[webdog]

Me4Him

I suggest writing fiction. LeHaye made a fortune doing the same.

I'm sure many a-mill's have too.

 

[Me4Him]

Me4Him

I suggest writing fiction. LeHaye made a fortune doing the same.

I don't think there's "ANY" hope for you. :tonofbricks: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[OldRegular]

I don't think there's "ANY" hope for you. :tonofbricks: :laugh: :laugh:

Me4Him

In the OP I asked the question: Can someone, anyone provide one passage of Scripture that definitively supports a pretribulation "rapture", that is the snatching away of the Church from earth, secret or otherwise.

To date no one has provided an answer. So I suggest that there is no hope for dispensationalism!:thumbs:

 

[Grasshopper]

I also asked for a passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews. Same reaponse!

.

Here it is OldRegular:

Joh 6:14 Then seeing the miracle that Jesus did, those men said, This is truly the Prophet, the One coming into the world.
Joh 6:15 Therefore when Jesus perceived that they would come and take Him by force, that they might make Him a king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain alone by Himself.

Oh wait, Jesus was offered the Kingdom by the Jews but He refused it. So either Jesus failed to accomplish what He was sent to do(the will of the Father) or it never was the will of the Father for Him to establish an earthly Kingdom thus refusing the offer.

But wait, Daniel spoke of a Kingdom in Daniel 2.

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings, the God of Heaven shall set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. And the kingdom shall not be left to other peoples, but it shall crush and destroy all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

Was Daniel wrong? Perhaps Marcia can explain why there was no Kingdom established as prophesied by Daniel since she has done an indepth study of the book.

I guess Mark was also wrong:

Mar 1:15 and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God draws near. Repent, and believe the gospel.

What "time" is he referring to? Daniel's prophecy perhaps?

 

[OldRegular]

Here it is OldRegular:

Joh 6:14 Then seeing the miracle that Jesus did, those men said, This is truly the Prophet, the One coming into the world.
Joh 6:15 Therefore when Jesus perceived that they would come and take Him by force, that they might make Him a king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain alone by Himself.

Oh wait, Jesus was offered the Kingdom by the Jews but He refused it. So either Jesus failed to accomplish what He was sent to do(the will of the Father) or it never was the will of the Father for Him to establish an earthly Kingdom thus refusing the offer.

But wait, Daniel spoke of a Kingdom in Daniel 2.

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings, the God of Heaven shall set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. And the kingdom shall not be left to other peoples, but it shall crush and destroy all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

Was Daniel wrong? Perhaps Marcia can explain why there was no Kingdom established as prophesied by Daniel since she has done an indepth study of the book.

I guess Mark was also wrong:

Mar 1:15 and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God draws near. Repent, and believe the gospel.

What "time" is he referring to? Daniel's prophecy perhaps?

Why do they persist? I cannot understand!

 

[Grasshopper]

Why do they persist? I cannot understand!

http://www.jvim.com/

 

[Allan]

They were not above the floodwaters. They were in a boat in the floodwaters. The wrath of God was played out before their very eyes. It was all around them. God protected them in the flood, not above the flood.

Drive-by poster moving on for a while. I'll drive by later.

Actually Tom they were protected from the flood waters and specifically removed from their power to hurt/destroy them.

Secondly, they 'saw' nothing. They were gathered into the ark 7 days before the Great Flood but everyone opening they had was shut/closed. There was a door and one small window. The only time the window was opened, as recorded in scripture, was when Noah sent forth the birds so there was no 'played out before their very eyes'.

Another thing is that they were above the water. Not once were they ever under the water. Though the boat was in the water "they" were not. The boat never went under the water nor was it ever in danger of being left to the mercy of the flood waters. It carried those of faith calmly, safely, and peacefully.'


BUT .. like I said earlier it is only imagry drawn from two seemingly parallel things regarding God's judgment and the saving of His people from it.

 

[Allan]

Why do they persist? I cannot understand!

Because it is the most scriptural, contextual, herminutical approach.

 

[Me4Him]

Me4Him

In the OP I asked the question: Can someone, anyone provide one passage of Scripture that definitively supports a pretribulation "rapture", that is the snatching away of the Church from earth, secret or otherwise.

To date no one has provided an answer. So I suggest that there is no hope for dispensationalism!:thumbs:

With your mind already made up, I don't think there's much chance of you "SEEING" anything you don't want to "SEE".

Israel closed their eyes/ears to the things Jesus was trying to show/teach them, and they are "blind".

Don't overlook that "Lesson".

Scripture requires at least "two witnesses" to establish the "truth" of every "Precept".

How much do you know about the "FEAST"??

Each feast corresponds to a major event in the NT, and from "Passover to Pentecost", each major event in the NT occurred on the "EXACT DATE" given for it's corresponding "FEAST DATE".

Pay particular attention to the coming/leaving of the "Comforter/Holy Ghost".

http://i25.tinypic.com/2e0mp6t.jpg

At Mt Sinai, Israel rejected God speaking "DIRECTLY" to them and told Moses to let God speak to him, then he could tell them.

This is why God sent "prophets" to speak to Israel.

The "Comforter/Holy Ghost" is God speaking "DIRECTLY" to people, and Israel again rejected God speaking directly to them through Jesus/comforter/Holy Ghost.

Heb 1:1 God, spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 (God) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

The "Last Trump" (voice) of the "Comforter" will rapture the church and God will again send "Prophets" (two witnesses) to speak for him during the trib.

Israel never had a "COMFORTER" to lead/guide them, and because of it, and as "CHASTISEMENT".

"POWER" is on the side of their "oppressor". Satan,

Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The "Comforter" is "Greater than Satan", the church, being the "Body of Christ", indwelled by the Comforter, prevents Satan from having "POWER" over it,

So, Re 13:7 "COULD NOT" be true if the Comforter/church was still "in the world".

 

[Grasshopper]

Me4Him is the Holy Spirit necessary in Salvation?

 

[OldRegular]

With your mind already made up, I don't think there's much chance of you "SEEING" anything you don't want to "SEE".

Israel closed their eyes/ears to the things Jesus was trying to show/teach them, and they are "blind".

Don't overlook that "Lesson".

Yeah, Yeah, I know. Jesus Christ came to establish an earthly Messianic Kingdom but the Jews rejected the offer and He established the Church instead. This in spite of Scripture teaching: When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.[John 6:15]

Next you tell me that the Church is going to fail and be snatched away to be replaced by 144,000 Jewish evangelists preaching the gospel of the kingdom.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Yeah, Yeah, I know. Jesus Christ came to establish an earthly Messianic Kingdom but the Jews rejected the offer and He established the Church instead. This in spite of Scripture teaching: When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.[John 6:15]

Next you tell me that the Church is going to fail and be snatched away to be replaced by 144,000 Jewish evangelists preaching the gospel of the kingdom.

I think its supposed to be 144,000 virgin jewish men. Which is why I always wondered at Darby and also White.

 

[OldRegular]

I think its supposed to be 144,000 virgin jewish men. Which is why I always wondered at Darby and also White.

You are correct. I forgot!