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Pre-Trib Rapture; Scriptural or Dispensational Fiction
- Thread starter OldRegular
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Not sure how that deals with the term “this generation”. Here is what modern Dispie Thomas Ice said of the term:
“It’s true that every other use of the phrase "this generation" in the New Testament, does refer to Jesus’ contemporaries because the context supports that.”
So Ice agrees every usage of “this generation” refers to Jesus’ contemporaries except the one instant where it messes up his eschatology and book sales.
That has been the dispie line for several years now, but it can nowhere be found in scripture. Where was the Kingdom ever conditional upon Jewish acceptance?
Psa 2:1 Why do the nations rage, and the peoples meditate on a vain thing?
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers plot together, against Jehovah and against His anointed, saying,
Psa 2:3 Let us break their bands in two and cast away their cords from us.
Psa 2:4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; Jehovah shall mock at them.
Psa 2:5 Then He shall speak to them in His anger, and trouble them in His wrath.
Psa 2:6 Yea, I have set My king on My holy hill, on Zion.
Secondly to say the Church is some kind of plan B is foolishness. Your view has God hurriedly jamming the Church age into time because the Jews didn’t do what He wanted. If Jesus came to set up an earthly Kingdom and was successful, then the Jews never would have crucified Him. There goes the entire Gospel out the window, along with all the OT prophecies of His death. You don’t crucify one who is your Messiah and King.
I can’t believe people actually believe this. How can you argue against such insanity. Also you put qualifiers on the time statement that God did not. It wasn’t an “if”/”then” prophecy. “If you accept the Messiah then the pouring out of my wrath is at hand” was not the prophecy given.
It is an invention of dispies. But to conclusively prove your point wrong there were these same time statements given after the rejection and well into the Church Age:
Jam 5:8 You also be patient, establish your hearts, for the coming of your Lord draws near.
1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things has drawn near. Therefore be of sound mind, and be sensible to prayers.
1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.
If your above statement is true then that makes James, Peter, and John false prophets.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with judgment and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts shall perform this.
Dan 2:44 And in the days of those kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed, nor shall the sovereignty thereof be left to another people; but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Once again, if you keep the Olivet Discourse in its proper context God did allow away for His people to escape the great Tribulation:
Luk 21:20 And when you see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that its destruction has come.
Luk 21:21 And let those in Judea flee to the mountains. And those in its midst, let them go out. And those in the open spaces, let them not go into her.
John Gill
And let them which are in the midst of it; either of Judea, as the preceding clause seems to direct the sense; or in Jerusalem, and which indeed was in the midst of Judea; and this sense is favoured by the Persic version, which renders it, "within the city"; let them go out of it, as the Christians did to Pella, Mount Libanus, and other places:
Part 2
1
I notice the author left out 1 minor detail. The Apocalypse gives us time statements:
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to shew unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. (There’s that “at hand” phrase again)
Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.
Rev 22:12 Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.
Revelation was written years after the Jews rejected their Messiah but John used the words “shortly come to pass”, “at hand” and “come quickly”. Why if your statement is true:
" Once the church is removed, that time line slaps back together, and the things that were "at hand" - ie, ready to be accomplished but weren't because Israel rejected the Messiah - will become reality."
The case has not been made that the Church is the restrainer. Only an opinion based on faulty pre-suppositions.
Here is what the author says:
“Paul says that the mystery of iniquity has been working for these hundreds of years.”
Paul says no such thing!
He also says this:
“There is no one that can restrain the ultimate power of Satan but deity, the Holy Spirit of God Who is in this world, Who is in this church, Who is in God’s people, Who is in the hearts of the believing Christians”.
So the Church can restrain Satan himself but was powerless against all these men:
“I think in every generation Satan has his antichrist prepared. And we’ll never get beyond one that is candidate for that awesome and awful place. When you get rid of a Kaiser Bill, you got a Hitler. When you get rid of a Hitler, you got a Stalin.
And when you get rid of a Stalin, you got a Khrushchev. And when you get rid of a Khrushchev, you’ve got another one coming on the stage of history until finally, the kingdom of darkness driving hard has its ultimate and final world tyrant prepared.”
If the Church is now restraining Satan why couldn’t she restrain Hitler, Stalin, etc….?
Spurgeon:
"But all that time, —the most awful time, perhaps that any nation ever endured,— the disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ were altogether unharmed. It is recorded that they fled to the little city of Pella, were quiet according to their Lord's command, and that not a hair on their head perished."
I look forward to my teen age daughters growing up and marrying and having their own children. Looking forward to growing old with my wife and ultimately spending eternity in Heaven with my Saviour. Hopefully eternity includes sitting down with all of you and having Jesus set us all straight on this stuff
Joh 17:15 I do not pray for You to take them out of the world, but for You to keep them from the evil.
1
I notice the author left out 1 minor detail. The Apocalypse gives us time statements:
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to shew unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. (There’s that “at hand” phrase again)
Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.
Rev 22:12 Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.
Revelation was written years after the Jews rejected their Messiah but John used the words “shortly come to pass”, “at hand” and “come quickly”. Why if your statement is true:
" Once the church is removed, that time line slaps back together, and the things that were "at hand" - ie, ready to be accomplished but weren't because Israel rejected the Messiah - will become reality."
The case has not been made that the Church is the restrainer. Only an opinion based on faulty pre-suppositions.
Here is what the author says:
“Paul says that the mystery of iniquity has been working for these hundreds of years.”
Paul says no such thing!
He also says this:
“There is no one that can restrain the ultimate power of Satan but deity, the Holy Spirit of God Who is in this world, Who is in this church, Who is in God’s people, Who is in the hearts of the believing Christians”.
So the Church can restrain Satan himself but was powerless against all these men:
“I think in every generation Satan has his antichrist prepared. And we’ll never get beyond one that is candidate for that awesome and awful place. When you get rid of a Kaiser Bill, you got a Hitler. When you get rid of a Hitler, you got a Stalin.
And when you get rid of a Stalin, you got a Khrushchev. And when you get rid of a Khrushchev, you’ve got another one coming on the stage of history until finally, the kingdom of darkness driving hard has its ultimate and final world tyrant prepared.”
If the Church is now restraining Satan why couldn’t she restrain Hitler, Stalin, etc….?
Spurgeon:
"But all that time, —the most awful time, perhaps that any nation ever endured,— the disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ were altogether unharmed. It is recorded that they fled to the little city of Pella, were quiet according to their Lord's command, and that not a hair on their head perished."
I look forward to my teen age daughters growing up and marrying and having their own children. Looking forward to growing old with my wife and ultimately spending eternity in Heaven with my Saviour. Hopefully eternity includes sitting down with all of you and having Jesus set us all straight on this stuff
Joh 17:15 I do not pray for You to take them out of the world, but for You to keep them from the evil.
HankD said:
Yes, of course we do OR and several other passages both in the OT and NT.
However this is a perfect illustration of my point.
You don't see the whole revelation of the Trinity in these 2 chapters of the Scripture much less one verse (including 1 John 5:7) as you have required several times concerning the pre-trib, pre-mill rapture of the Church.
As a comparison there is a large body of doctrine concerning the Trinity that can not be determined by any one passage of Scripture:
The distinction of the persons of the Trinity.
The relationships of the persons of the Trinity
the eternal begotteness of the Son
the eternal procession of the Spirit from the Father and the Son
The incarnation of the Logos.
The hypostatic union.
The Kenosis of the Son.
In many of these singular items there are several relevant verses as well.
Your question IMO is akin to requiring:
Show me one passage of Scripture that says that Jesus Christ is the second person of the Holy Trinity equal in authority to the Father and the Holy Spirit.
etc, etc, etc.
So also the Second Coming of Christ, the "rapture - caught up in the air", the Great Tribulation, the Millenium, etc.
The dispensational interpretation of Scripture deals with the Second Coming in the details of the events just before, during and after the Second Coming of Christ. To be sure, dispensationalism is more literal than allegorical in its view (of which Daniel 7-8 is only one).
In that, it is similar to the development of the Trintarian doctrine based upon a compilation of a multitude of Scripture.
Being a human interpretation it depends upon how one puts line upon line, precept upon precept comparing Scripture with Scripture.
In that, it is a fallible process (but not the Scripture themselves) subject to the human error of understanding and interpretation. Therefore the many schools of thought pre-mill, post-mill, pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, etc...
It is still a relatively young interpretation of Scripture concerning the compilation of all the Scripture dealing with the Second coming though the Scriptures are millenia old.
I said all that in the attempt to perhaps keep us from ad homini or questioning each others spirituality.
Ideally we should delight in learning from one another concering our differing views of our Savior coming in glory for His own.
But, we are Baptists (not sure if a smiley or frowney is appropriate).
HankD
He's not saying the Church is the Restrainer - the Restrainer is a "he" - the Holy Spirit IN the Church.
Since we believe in the Eternal Security of the Believer, ie, that it is impossible for the Holy Spirit to leave off indwelling the child of God, then when He is removed, the entire body of believers at that time, along with all who have not reached the age of accountability, will be removed. THEN will the Wicked One be revealed, and, thus, begins the Tribulation.
By the way - don't appreciate the name calling.
Since we believe in the Eternal Security of the Believer, ie, that it is impossible for the Holy Spirit to leave off indwelling the child of God, then when He is removed, the entire body of believers at that time, along with all who have not reached the age of accountability, will be removed. THEN will the Wicked One be revealed, and, thus, begins the Tribulation.
By the way - don't appreciate the name calling.
Todd W. White said:
Where did I call you a name? I will gladly apologize.
This is why we reach different conclusions. I think it was Jim who early on said it boils down to hermenutic methods. Always glad to see the name HankD show up on a thread I'm involved with.:wavey:
"Dispies". . . ?
Todd W. White said:
Allan is correct. Dispensationalists is too long to spell every time and I usually spell it differently everytime I do ,so I just use Dispies for short. Feel free to call me a pret, I won't get angry.
Gotcha -
Comes from many years of dealing with people who are closed-minded (after all, I am a baptist pastor :tongue3: ). Most who use names are like that - closed-minded to even discussing issues with those of differing viewpoints.
Comes from many years of dealing with people who are closed-minded (after all, I am a baptist pastor :tongue3: ). Most who use names are like that - closed-minded to even discussing issues with those of differing viewpoints.
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Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
The pre-trib rapture is Scriptural
Ah, 'pret' = Pretribulationist. Sounds good to me. I wonder if 'pret' is in the New International Versions (NIV)?
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NIV):
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.[/FONT]
Acts like the Lord will come right along when the rebellion gets strong enough. I thought when God the Father wants the Lord to Come, the Lord will come?
2Th 2:3 (KJV1611 Editiin):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes, for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sinne bee reuealed, the sonne of perdition,
I like this version better, it talks like the Lord is going to shake us out of our graves and right into His awaiting hands. Amen! Yes, some time in the future, when God the Father commands, the Lord will come to get His own in the pretribulation rapture2 and shake us right out of our Graves (we who are dead in the Lord). We are NOT waiting for the Antichrist, we are NOT waiting for the Man of Lawlessness, we are NOT waiting for the the fellow travellers of the Christians to rebel from the church -- we pre-tribs are waiting for Jesus to come get US.
Ah, 'pret' = Pretribulationist. Sounds good to me. I wonder if 'pret' is in the New International Versions (NIV)?
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NIV):
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.[/FONT]
Acts like the Lord will come right along when the rebellion gets strong enough. I thought when God the Father wants the Lord to Come, the Lord will come?
2Th 2:3 (KJV1611 Editiin):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes, for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sinne bee reuealed, the sonne of perdition,
I like this version better, it talks like the Lord is going to shake us out of our graves and right into His awaiting hands. Amen! Yes, some time in the future, when God the Father commands, the Lord will come to get His own in the pretribulation rapture2 and shake us right out of our Graves (we who are dead in the Lord). We are NOT waiting for the Antichrist, we are NOT waiting for the Man of Lawlessness, we are NOT waiting for the the fellow travellers of the Christians to rebel from the church -- we pre-tribs are waiting for Jesus to come get US.
I like that Ed!
Oh - anyone want to venture a guess as to who the author of the dissertation is?
Oh - anyone want to venture a guess as to who the author of the dissertation is?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
HankD said:
Colossians 2:9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
John 10:30. I and my Father are one.
Matthew 16:16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
John 14:9. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
1 Timothy 3:16. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Hebrews 1:3. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
John 8:58. Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Exodus 3:14. And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
I like Colossians 2:9 and John 8:58 best. Colossians 2:9 clearly shows that Jesus Christ "is equal in authority to the Father and the Holy Spirit."
In John 8:58 we see Jesus Christ applying the name of God revealed to Moses in the Old Testament I AM to Himself.
The Trinity discussion probably ought to become it's own thread.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Todd W. White said:
No! But I would like a response either to the OP or my response to your long dissertation.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Todd W. White said:
It would be an interesting discussion. But what we non-prets are trying to say is that pre-millinnialism cannot be PROVED with one and only one verse. Nor can Bro. Regular show that Jesus is the second of a 3-in-1 Godhead with one and only one verse. I did note that Bro. Regular did show that quite nicely with 9 Scripture Passages (aka: 'verse'). But we asked for ONE scripture, not a whole handful.''
From post #0 (AKA: OP=opening post)
OldRegular: // Can someone, anyone provide one passage of Scripture that definitively supports a pretribulation "rapture", that is the snatching away of the Church from earth, secret or otherwise. Or like the supposed offer of an earthly Messianic Kingdom am I just :BangHead::BangHead: //
No, we can't do it. No passage in the Bible says what you said in one passage. But your bleating this mantra like a sick sheep means you must be missing out on something.
And in the very first reply I told you what you were going to get, but apparently you didn't want it. So I really aught to let you ruin your board credibility by bleating this mantra like a sick sheep. You remind me of the one who keeps saying something like this: Paul is not saying 1,000 years in 2 Thess 2. Yes, and the concept of the Blessed Trinity also is not in 2 Thess 2. But both the rapture2 and the resurrection2 are in 2 Thess 2, Christ and Antichrist are both in 2 Thess 2. Every passage can't say every Doctrine.
In general this is how to build a doctrine FROM SCRIPTUE:
Lay all the scriptures side by side.
Note the similiar parts.
Note the different parts.
The similiar parts are that which is repeated. God repeats the best parts the most. Probably individual salvation is the most important concept in the Bible. There must be at least three dozen word pictuares of the individual before salvation, the saving power of Messiah Jesus, the change in the individual when Jesus saves them, etc. Here are some quick Scripture pictures of individual salvation. They are off the top of my head (the numbering system is to facilitate discussion, it is NOT scriptural):
1. becoming a member of the bride of Christ
2. becoming a part of the body of Christ
3. being SAVED
4. being redeamed (a picture of the one sold into slavery being bought back)
5. being protected by the shield of Faith
6. being adopted* into the family of God
7. being born into the family of God
8. being reborn into the family of God
09-38. left as an exercise for the student
*BTW, some dumb preachers love to tell how being adopted means they can't get rid of you like they can get rid of a natural born child. Sorry, that isn't true. My biological Brother has a ministry among disrupted adoptions (the adopting parent can't continue the adoption for what ever reason - the child needs to be re-adopted. Yes, I still believe in OSAS (once saved, always saved) - the adoption laws just ain't the scripture that prove it.
Also, many truths of the Bible can be shown independently of the Bible. The sun rises in the East - this has been observed by people who never saw the Holy Scriptures. The Bible is all truth, but not all truth is contained within the Bible - all the BEST truths are in the Bible, for sure. AMen!
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