Pre-Trib Rapture; Scriptural or Dispensational Fiction

[Todd W. White]

OOOPS!

Oh well, yes it IS easy to get confused - lots of activity here.

:laugh:

 

[HankD]

Colossians 2:9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

John 10:30. I and my Father are one.

Matthew 16:16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

John 14:9. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

1 Timothy 3:16. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Hebrews 1:3. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

John 8:58. Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Exodus 3:14. And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

I like Colossians 2:9 and John 8:58 best. Colossians 2:9 clearly shows that Jesus Christ "is equal in authority to the Father and the Holy Spirit."

In John 8:58 we see Jesus Christ applying the name of God revealed to Moses in the Old Testament I AM to Himself.

This in response to:

Originally Posted by HankD

Show me one passage of Scripture that says that Jesus Christ is the second person of the Holy Trinity equal in authority to the Father and the Holy Spirit.
HankD

Great OR although we digress from the OP, you proved my point. You used several verses but not one of them singularly fulfilled my request. You said Colossians 2:9 and John 8:58 are best. However neither of these verses use the names of the other two persons of the Trinity.

Someone who first read these passages could never come to the conclusion that I asked for.

In fact, you did everything you had to do to show the precept that Christ is equal to the Father although the doctrine of the deity of the Holy Spirit is lacking in your dissertation.

1 John 5:7 is a good verse although not too many consider it inspired as I do.

Here is the one verse that actually comes the closest combined with John 1:1 and John 8:58: to fulfilling my request.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Here we see that “in the name” the word name is singular (not names) showing that the three are one in essence and/or authority.

We see that the Son is the second person of the Three.

We also see that the name of each person is preceded the definite article: The Father; the Son; the Holy Ghost showing that they are distinct from one another.

However, even monotheistic Arians (e.g. Jehovah Witnesses) don’t have a problem with this passage.

It must be proven that the Holy Spirit is indeed a person and God Himself (which they deny).

So, it is as the Scripture declares

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Matthew 13:52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

Dispensationalist teaching is just that: precept upon precept; line upon line, here a little,there a little, some things old some new.

Most major doctrines of the church have followed this pattern.

Of course, dispensationalism being a human tool of interpretation has the risk of being flawed or even erroneous.

Personally I accept the core beliefs of dispensationalism (not every detail though).

HankD

 

[Ed Edwards]

From the article:

The 69th week closes with Messiah the prince being cutoff, but the 70 weeks are not yet complete. The killing of the Messiah, stopped the prophetic clock, before it was completed. There is one week or seven-year period remaining. This seven-year period begins with the confirming of a covenant with many regarding a future Jewish Temple.

I am aware that this is what dispies teach, but on what basis do they insist that the "clock stopped"? The idea certainly doesn't come from Daniel. Did God not know at this time His Son would come to be crucified? Again, other than eschatological bias, why should we put a gap inbetween the 69th and 70th week?

Rom 11:25-26 (KJV1611 Edition):
For I would not, brethren, that ye should bee ignorant of this mysterie (least yee should bee wise in your owne conceits) that blindnesse in part is happened to Israel, vntill the fulnes of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saued, as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliuerer, and shall turne away vngodlinesse from Iacob.

The gap starts when the 'blindness in part' of Israel started;
the gap ends when 'the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
THEN, once the gap ends ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED.

 

[Grasshopper]

Rom 11:25-26 (KJV1611 Edition):
For I would not, brethren, that ye should bee ignorant of this mysterie (least yee should bee wise in your owne conceits) that blindnesse in part is happened to Israel, vntill the fulnes of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saued, as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliuerer, and shall turne away vngodlinesse from Iacob.

The gap starts when the 'blindness in part' of Israel started;
the gap ends when 'the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
THEN, once the gap ends ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED.

Sorry Ed, nor can you give a scriptural reason to think that when God decreed 70 weeks He did so with a gap in it.

Maybe I can insert a 5000 year gap in the last year of your 1000 year MK? Thus the 1000 MK ends 6000 years after it starts. Let all just do as we please.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Pre-Trib Rapture: Scriptural Promise

2Th 2:3 (KJV1611 Editiin):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes, for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sinne bee reuealed, the sonne of perdition,

Ed, how can you understand end time events if you can't define words properly?

"Falling away" does not mean rapture. Please show me a definition from a valid source that states the "falling away" means people being lifted off the earth.

The word here is "apostasia", meaning forsake. It is referring to a forsaking of the faith.

Yep, that is what Scofield, the great dispensational teacher says.
Ed says:

2Th 2:1 Now wee beseech you, brethren, by the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ, and by our gathering together vnto him,

Here Paul says he will speak of two things:
1. the comming of our Lord, Messiah Jesus
2. OUR gathering together unto our Lord, Messiah Jesus

I see where Paul speaks of the commingof our Lord, Messiah Jesus. But inless 'apostasi' means 'departing the earth' - Paul never gets around to discussing the 'the gathering of the saints'.

 

[Amy.G]

Pre-Trib Rapture: Scriptural Promise

2Th 2:3 (KJV1611 Editiin):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes, for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sinne bee reuealed, the sonne of perdition,



Yep, that is what Scofield, the great dispensational teacher says.
Ed says:

2Th 2:1 Now wee beseech you, brethren, by the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ, and by our gathering together vnto him,

Here Paul says he will speak of two things:
1. the comming of our Lord, Messiah Jesus
2. OUR gathering together unto our Lord, Messiah Jesus

I see where Paul speaks of the commingof our Lord, Messiah Jesus. But inless 'apostasi' means 'departing the earth' - Paul never gets around to discussing the 'the gathering of the saints'.

What is your point? I don't understand what you are saying.

Apostasy means a departure from the faith. Can you post a definition from a reliable source that says "falling away" means the church is raptured?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Sorry Ed, nor can you give a scriptural reason to think that when God decreed 70 weeks He did so with a gap in it.

Maybe I can insert a 5000 year gap in the last year of your 1000 year MK? Thus the 1000 MK ends 6000 years after it starts. Let all just do as we please.

IF you can find a reason as good as the one I have at Rom 11:25-26 - feel free to quote it & apply it.

Here is the gap after the 69th and before the 70th made bold & red so you can see it easier:

Dan 9:25-26A (KJV1611 Edition):
Know therefore and vnderstand, that from the going foorth of the commandement to restore and to build Ierusalem, vnto the Messiah the Prince, shall be seuen weekes; and threescore and two weekes, the street shall be built againe, and the wall, euen in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weekes, shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himselfe, and the people of the Prince that shall come, shall destroy the citie, and ...

pesky 'comma and' anyway

 

[Grasshopper]

What is your point? I don't understand what you are saying.

Thank goodness, I thought it was just me.:laugh: I usuall just pass them by unless they are short.

Apostasy means a departure from the faith. Can you post a definition from a reliable source that says "falling away" means the church is raputured?

I wouldn't consider it credible but here is probably the source, though Ed might deny it:

http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=165
I believe that there is a strong possibility that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is speaking of the rapture. What do I mean? Some pretribulationists, like myself, think that the Greek noun apostasia, usually translated "apostasy," is a reference to the rapture and should be translated "departure." Thus, this passage would be saying that the day of the Lord will not come until the rapture comes before it. If apostasia is a reference to a physical departure, then 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is strong evidence for pretribulationism.

 

[Marcia]

You can be pre-trib and think that word means apostasy. It's saying that the day of the Lord (verse 2) won't come until the apostasy comes first. Then it says the "man of lawlessness" will not be revealed until "he who restrains him" is "taken out of the way."

 

[Grasshopper]

IF you can find a reason as good as the one I have at Rom 11:25-26 - feel free to quote it & apply it.

Here is the gap after the 69th and before the 70th made bold & red so you can see it easier:

Dan 9:25-26A (KJV1611 Edition):
Know therefore and vnderstand, that from the going foorth of the commandement to restore and to build Ierusalem, vnto the Messiah the Prince, shall be seuen weekes; and threescore and two weekes, the street shall be built againe, and the wall, euen in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weekes, shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himselfe, and the people of the Prince that shall come, shall destroy the citie, and ...

pesky 'comma and' anyway

Oh I see, so anywhere we find "and" in scripture we are free to insert gaps.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Lets see, I'll put a gap after the first "and", I'll make it a 535 year gap after the second "and", 1090 years after the third "and" Ill make it an even 3000 years after the fourth "and".

Wow Ed's method of interpretation is fun. Lets see that makes Christ return somewhere in the 9500AD range. But it is still "at hand".

What a way to head off on vacation. Now I don't have to worry about the rapture ruining my plans.

 

[webdog]

What is your point? I don't understand what you are saying.

Apostasy means a departure from the faith. Can you post a definition from a reliable source that says "falling away" means the church is raptured?

The word simply means "removal of christianity". I can't think of when this is more true than during the rapture, can you? As long as there are believers on this earth, the great commission is in effect. There will never be apostosia as long as the Holy Spirit is working through believers evangelzing the world, in fact, christianity is spreading daily. I read that close to 10,000 chinese are coming to Christ daily...which goes against apostasy as it is used by those who don't agree with the biblical view of the rapture. I think Ed pointed out already that Bibles predating the 1611 KJV used some sort of departure, and not apostasy in their translations.

 

[Todd W. White]

I used to believe and was taught that the Great Falling Away was an abandonment of Christianity.

Now, I have come to believe that, instead of the church buildings being empty, The Great Falling Away will be characterized by church buildings filled with empty people.

 

[Ed Edwards]

The Scriptural view of the PreTrib rapture

whomever: // Oh I see, so anywhere we find "and" in scripture we are free to insert gaps. //

Actually, you can only insert gaps described in Scriptures. But they fit nicer where there is an 'and', comma (,), semi-colon (, or period(.) Of course, I'd like a verse that proves the pre-trib rapture2 and another that places it where an explanation point (!) is :love2: - it will really be exciting to be alive when the actual pretrib rapture2 comes. Then Jesus will break as the dawn, the dead shall fall out of the graves as unto the arms of Jesus (getting their new Jesus-like bodies with no zits) followed closely by the still living who are IN CHRIST. I think the still living will get their new Jesus-like bodies BEFORE they start falling, in case they are in a building - they will need the new bodies so they can zip through the celiens and roofs during their fall into as unto the very hands of Messiah Jesus.

I have a feeling that the noise that wakes the dead will be noticed by the whole world. If you are still lost, be sure to keep a camera pointed at the skys all the time. Your moving picture of the pretrib rapture2 will really sell good after the event comes down. Be sure your camer is up-side down. So when you find out that resurrected (whose feet are pointed to the East) go feet first (they are falling away from death and the grave in the Power of the Lord, well their bodies are, anyway) - you won't have to figure out how to turn the movie up-side down so their heads will 'look up'.

 

[Amy.G]

The word simply means "removal of christianity". I can't think of when this is more true than during the rapture, can you?

Paul states it again:
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

I have not seen any definition that states "removal of christianity". The word does not mean that christianity is "removed". It means that people depart (or remove themselves) from the faith.

As long as there are believers on this earth, the great commission is in effect. There will never be apostosia as long as the Holy Spirit is working through believers evangelzing the world, in fact, christianity is spreading daily.

Surely you are kidding. There will be apostasy. The bible is clear on that. Just look around. The emergent church, as just one example of many. Europe has just about given up Christianity altogether. It is mostly Muslim. No apostasy???

read that close to 10,000 chinese are coming to Christ daily...which goes against apostasy as it is used by those who don't agree with the biblical view of the rapture. I think Ed pointed out already that Bibles predating the 1611 KJV used some sort of departure, and not apostasy in their translations.

Apostasy is not new. But the bible says it will be a great falling away. And just because there are huge churches, it doesn't mean that their doctrine is solid. Joel Osteen?

 

[Ed Edwards]

The 'depart from the faith' in 1Ti 4:1 is quite another set of Greek words than the one Greek word translated 'departure' or 'falling away' in 2Thess 2:3. The 1Tim 4:1 not only has a Greek word for 'depart' but also an explanation of what is departed from 'the faith'.

Here is a good question, What does 'the faith' mean in 1Ti4:1?

 

[Ed Edwards]

I used to believe and was taught that the Great Falling Away was an abandonment of Christianity.

Now, I have come to believe that, instead of the church buildings being empty, The Great Falling Away will be characterized by church buildings filled with empty people.

Amen, Brother Todd W. White -- Preach it! :thumbs:

They will be singing 7-11 music:
seven words, sung eleven times
7-11 music.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Matthew Henry Commentary explains on 'falling away' of 2 Thess. 2:3 very clear. He said:

"A general apostasy, there would come a falling away first, v. 3. By this apostasy we are not to understand a defection in the state or from civil government, but in spiritual or religious matters, from sound doctrine, instituted worship and church government, and a holy life." (emphasis mine).

Matthew Henry wrote commentary in year between 1690 to 1710. Even, he used King James Version. Because during in his time, KJV was the only one English version Bible. Till late 19th Century, more new English versions translated.

Matthew Henry understoods 'falling away' of 2 Thess 2:3, clear means apostasy. Apostasy is within individual of believers' spiritual of the Church.

Bible predicted in the last days, the spirituals within Church are become worsen and more believers fall away into world, more are compromsing with world. We are already seeing lot of true believers are already compromising with world, and many are quit serve the Lord.

So, therefore, 2 Thess. 2:3-4 telling us, our gathering together and Day of Christ shall not come yet till the signs of church's apostasy become worsen, and then Satan shall persecute against Christians("temple of God"-vs. 4).

Bible is clear teaching us that we must go through MUCH of tribulations and persecutions enter into the kingdom - Acts 14:22. So, it doesn't support the teaching of pretribulationism doctrine of "escapism tribulation". It is a false doctrine, and men-making doctrines.(Col. 2:8).

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Todd W. White]

Grasshopper wrote -

...could be anyone from Hal Lindsey to Dwight Pentecost...

Nope, not Hal Lindsey.

Not Dwight Pentecost.

Not Tim LaHaye, either.

Still don't know?

 

[Me4Him]

Bible predicted in the last days, the spirituals within Church are become worsen and more believers fall away into world, more are compromsing with world. We are already seeing lot of true believers are already compromising with world, and many are quit serve the Lord.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things,

Pr 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing (Comforter) which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

How can you have a "Relationship" with God if you don't have "ears to hear", or even recognize "TRUTH" when you see it, without the "Spirit" revealing it to you???

Man can't learn or teach "Spiritual discernment" through books or theology schools,

Yet many place their "FAITH" in a doctrine written by "Joseph Smith (mormons", Scofield, Calvin, Pope, others, without having the "Spirit" to "Confirm/deny" the doctrine,

And when the spirit is not teaching, everyone goes their own way with "interpretations",

Evidence of the "Falling away".

 

[Todd W. White]

I believe that another evidence of The Great Falling Away is the rapid rise of the secularization of Christianity:

The culture is changing the church, instead of the church changing the culture...

As a result, it's hard to tell who is Light and who is Darkness.