Pre-trib rapture

[Ed Edwards]

Dwmoeller1: //You assert that the contextual reason you
are confident of the split in vs. 31 is because
of the 'kai' at the beginning of the verse.//

You missed the plague of body lice over a nit.
What I was trying to do was to figure out what
might be the meaning of Matthew 24:4-44. I was
thinking Jesus answered the 3 questions that were
asked Him in Matthew 24:3.

You missed the head of hair which was the
whole message of Jesus in Matthew chapters 24 and
chapter 25.

I appologize for putting a stumbling nit* in your path

*note 'nit', literally = an egg of a body lice
but figuratively means a minor point raised to major proportion.

Let me ask another question then.
I say that the "Immediately after the tribulation of those dayes"
in Matthew 24:29 pertains only to the rest of Matthew 24:29
and Matthew 24:30. Others say other "Immediately
after the tribulation of those dayes" pertains clear through
to the end of Matthew 25: everything from Matthew 24:30 to 25:46.
What say ye? To what scriputres or verses does the
"Immediately after the tribulation of those dayes" of Matthew 24:9
pertain?

 

[Mel Miller]

Quote from Ed Edwards:

"To what scriputres or verses does the `Immediately after the tribulation of those dayes' of Matthew 24:29 pertain"?
____________________________________________________________

The last upcoming event mentioned in Revelation before "Heaven opens
AND Christ descends to destroy the destroyers of earth" applies to all who have been invited to the Wedding Supper of the Lamb". Rev.19:9-11.

Nine out of the eleven verses from Rev.19:1-11 begin with AND! AND their purpose is to show the connectivity of events that immediately follow the fall of the great harlot Babylon!! AND I'm sure you can find more than ten things to happen beginning with the letter "R"!!!

1. AND those in heaven REJOICE. Rev.19:1-7.
2. AND the bodies of the Martyrs must be RESURRECTED. Rev.20:4-6.
3. AND their loved ones will be RAPTURED from the earth. I Thess.4:17.
4. AND they are REUNITED at the "Synagogue in the Sky". 2 Thess.2:1.
5. AND Jesus brings His REWARDS "with Him for every Saint". Matt.16:27.
6. AND All Israel will be filled with REMORSE. Rev.1:7; Rom.11:25-26.
7. AND they will be RESCUED to "stand before the Son of Man". Lk.21:36.
8. AND God's RETRIBUTION of Wrath falls on ALL who refuse to repent.
9. AND creation is RELEASED from bondage to be as the Garden of Eden.
10. AND the RESTORATION of all things puts Israel at the head of nations.

All these things take place "on one of the DAYS AFTER Great Tribulation ends AND time shall no longer" be sujbect to an exact number of prophetic days! Matt.24:29; Mark 13:24; Rev.10:6-7.

That day begins with the sun turning dark AND the whole moon to blood AND with the stars falling from heaven AND a great quake!!

The HOUR that "no one knows in advance" will begin with Jesus "gathering
the Elect from earth to the Sky"!!! Holman Standard Bible. Mark 13:27.

"AND all the called, elect and faithful will come with the Lamb"! Rev.17:14.
Not all the Elect are raised up in that HOUR!! For "God will bring Enoch AND the 144,000 Jews AND the Two Witnesses AND the souls of all the Martyrs WITH Jesus" (I Thess.4:13-14) when heaven opens and He comes to fulfill the events listed above including the SUPPER of the Lamb to which those in #6-7 above are invited!!!

Mel

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Pretrib teaches, the rapture is NOT at second coming.

Then, I ask you, why the 'rapture' is for the Church only, while the second coming is for suvrival people?

Pretribulationism doctrine have lot of holes and problems. Pretribulationism, itself teaching that Christ shall come again two times in the future. Also, it teaches, Christ shall judge people two or three times in the future. For example- pretrib teaches, that the 'the judgment seat of Christ' is for "Church" only at rapture in the heaven during seven years of tribulation period.

Robert Gundry, premill/posttrib made a good point in his book. He discussed about the judgement seat of Christ. He explained, if supposed 200 million of alive Christians of 6.7 billion world population, shall be raptured, and they all shall be judged during seven year of tribulation period. Whilst, pretrib teaches, there shall be the marriage supper of the Lamb right after the judgment seat of Christ completed just before the second coming.

Let's do math to see how long all 200 million of alive Christians shall be judged individually. There is 60 seconds each a minute. So, 60 seconds multpily (x) 60 minutes = 3600 seconds per a hour. 3600 seconds multpily 24 hours = 86,400 seconds per day. 86,400 seconds multply 365 days = 31,536,000 seconds a year. Then, 31,536,000 multiply 7 years equal is 220,752,000 seconds in 7 years. So, that mean, God shall judge each a individual of 220 million alive Christians totally of seven years. When after God judged them all, and to set the marriage supper of the Lamb, but He have to be realized there is not enough time to have the marriage supper of the Lamb in the heaven. So, they have to take sandwich with them, and ride on horses to follow Christ out of the heaven as 7 years expired. That means, God would have to squeeze Judgment seat of Christ into short 7 years of 'Tribulation period', to judge ALL alive and remain Christians to be done.

But, that is not enough, there are millions, and millions of Christians, who already died in the past centuries, are now with the Lord. They all are await for their judgment. That would be about 1 billion of saints to be judged to receive their rewards from all ages from early Church to the end of the 'Church Age'. BUT, not just for New Testament saints only, also, included all Old Testament saints shall be judged too. So, there are so countless of saints are yet judged and receive rewards. It is future. The judgment seat of Christ will take for long time to judge ALL saints. It would take for many years such as 50 to 100 years to completed.

So, the Bible is clearly teaching us that the judgement seat of Christ shall be follow after the coming of Christ with his angels to judge the world - Matt. 25:31-46; 2 Tim. 4:1. Both judgement seat of Christ and great white throne are same.

Christ shall judge the world at once, not two or three times according dispensationalism teaching.

Again, Matthew 25:31-46 probably is the clearest passage teaching of eschatology doctrine, that it is posttribulational, amill, and general judgment.

Many pretribs are aware that Matthew chapter 24 and 25 give more problems with pretribulationism, because Christ taught us, that Christ shall come again at once, not two times. That why, I follow what Christ saying than what men saying according Col. 2:8.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib:

Pretribulationism doctrine
have lot of holes and problems.
Pretribulationism, itself teaching that Christ
shall come again two times in the future.

What is the holes? What is the problem?
Jesus came to earth twice in the First Advent:

1. from heaven to earth as a babe in a manger
2. from hell to earth in the resurrection - victor
over death, hell, & the grave

Why can't Jesus come back to Earth twice
in the second advent?

DeafPosttrib:

Pretribulationism doctrine
have lot of holes and problems.
...
Also, it (Pretribulationism) teaches,
Christ shall judge people two or three times in the future.
For example- pretrib teaches, that the
'the judgment seat of Christ' is for "Church"
only at rapture in the heaven during
seven years of tribulation period.

Actually no person will be judged for final
second death or eternal life BUT ONCE.
However, different groups of people will be judged
at different times.

Counting Judgement:

1 Judgement:
There is one judgement that each competent
person must face. God will judge everybody.

2 Judgements:
There are two types of Judgements:
1. the judgement of the SAFE in Christ for rewards
2. the judgement of the Christ rejector (unjust) for demnation

3 Judgements:
1. The judgement of Church Age Christians
at the end of the Church Age (AKA: pretribulation rapture)
2. The Judgement of Yisrael at the Tribulation Period
3. The Judgement of the damned at the end
of a physical Millinnial Messanic Kingdom

(Note to those young persons who can
Make sure you study set theory in
a High School Algebra I class, or
in College: College Algebra. (in the USofA
probably 40% of Algebra teachers are
not competent to teach 5th grade arithemetic
let alone modern set theory).

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPostrib:

... because Christ taught us, that Christ
shall come again at once, not two times.
That why, I follow what Christ saying than what
men saying according Col. 2:8.

Actually Christ didn't teach he would only come once.
The singleness of Christ's Second Coming is
A TEACHING OF HUMANS - not a scriptural
teaching.

Col 2:8 (KJV1611 Edition):
Beware lest any man spoile you through Philosophie
and vaine deceit, after the tradition of men,
after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:

The rudiments of the world want you to
believe you have to work your way into heaven
instead of Trusting in Christ (who has already
done all it takes to save you, if you will accepit it).
The rudiments of the world want you to
believe that you have to survive 7-years of
HELL ON EARTH: Judgement on Evil People,
to hope to get to heaven.
No my friend, If you go by Colossians 2:8
you would have stayed a pretribulation rapture believer.

Heb 11:1-2 (KJV1611 Edition):
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for,
the euidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the Elders obtained a good report.

Pretribualtion rapture is the hope, second only
to the faith that Jesus Saves and when Jesus Saves
one stays saved.

I still don't understand the vain deceit that
we have to work ourselves through
HELL ON EARTH (AKA: The Great Tribulation)
when Jesus already went to hell (in the First advent)
and already won the victory over Death, Hell,
and the Grave. Jesus saves us; we don't save
ourselves by piling up good works.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

Your logical of three different judgments is not find in the Bible.

Matthew 25:31-46 teaching us, Christ shall judge the world at once by follow after his coming at the end of the age. Christ shall judge us good or bad - 2 Cor. 5:10. The judgement seat of Christ doesn't always show us the positive, there shall be sad results for any individual after their works show that they shall fail them, the conclusion shall send them into the outer darkness - everlasting fire according Matt. 25:14-30.

Also, Matt. 25:31-46 teaching us of conditional salvation base upon our actions. Matt. 25:31-46 proves us that, judgement is for EVERY inidvidual from all ages from the beginning to the end, either Jew or Gentile, both all sheep and goats shall face the judgment seat of Christ.

Both judgment seat of Christ and great white throne are same or synonymous. Tell me, how many thrones, Christ sits?

No way that, you can find a single verse anywhere in the four gospels that, Christ teaching two comings at the end of the age. Many pretribs are aware that Christ doesn't teaching two phases or split-comings anywhere in the four gospels. So, therefore, they claim that the four gospels are NOT for the church. Huh? Also, they saying, Pauline epistles are apply to the Churhc only.

This is the type of dispensationalism doctrine.

No.

All the four gospels are always apply to us as Christians. Matt. 28:18-20 telling us, Christ commanded His disciples go and teaching to ALL nations, whatsoever they to do(observe) things. No question, Matt. 28:18-20 is obivously apply to us all. Even, include Matthew chapter 24 and 25 both are always apply to us, not just for Jews or 'tribulation saints' only. If suppose, Matthew chapter 24 and 25 are not apply to us, then should we skip them, and not to read or study them? Or, should we tear Matthew 24 and 25 away out of the Bible? Why Matthew chapter 24 and 25 both already penned and put them in the Bible? What is the purpose of them?

Dispensationalism easily cause people into confusion and misunderstanding, because it is man-making doctrine. Early church never teaching the term of the doctrine -'dispensationalism'. Early Church understood, that God have only one group or family, all who have faith in the same saviour - Jesus Christ by through Calvary. Both O.T. saints and N.T. saints share the same faith in Christ Jesus through Calvary. ALL scriptures always direct toward to us - 2 Tim. 3:16. We cannot cut Bible into pieces by use scisscor, tell which passage is applyt us or "Jews", or, "Church", or "Israel", or "tribulation saints". If we do, it would easily make us confusion. Also, 'rightly dividing the word of truth' of 2 Tim. 2:15 doesn't mean that we cut them into pieces, it means we have to digging them deeper by examing or analyzing them as study to handling God's Word carefully and serious.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Five Judgements

The Lord God is a judging God

"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

The Five Judgements:

1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."

2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
(AKA: Sheep and Goat Nations judgement, Matthew 25:31-46,
2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:11-15)
WHO: the nations: the living surviver nations of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed nations to Hell; the blessed nations
to the Millennial Messanic KingdomAge

5. Great White Throne judgement
(Revelation 20:11:15)
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib: //Your logical of three different judgments is not find in the Bible. //

Do you agree every human shall be judged?

This verse divides all humanity into three groups
of people.

1 Corinthians 10:32 (KJV1769 Version):
Give none offence, neither to the JEWS,
nor to the GENTILES, nor to the CHURCH OF GOD

Thus it is very scriptural what I said was the
three groups that were to be judged.

DeafPosttrib: //Both judgment seat of Christ and great white throne
are same or synonymous.//

I've denoted the difference in a nearby post called "Five Judgements".
If they are different some places and the same some places,
does that make them different or the same?

DeafPosttrib: //Tell me, how many thrones, Christ sits?//

It is written that the Lord shall rule ('sit' means to rule)
ALL of them! (apparently Christ will someday
rule over all the thrones everywhen and everywhere):

Isa 14:9 (KJV1611 Edition):
Hell from beneath is mooued for thee
to meet thee at thy comming:
it stirreth vp the dead for thee,
euen all the chiefe ones of the earth;
it hath raised vp from their thrones,
all the kings of the nations.

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib: //No way that, you can find a single verse anywhere in the four gospels that, Christ teaching two comings at the end of the age.//

You are correct. It takes a whole chapter.
There is no verse in Acts that says Christ shall come get
us at the End of the Age and Come to whip antichrist booty
at the end of the Tribulation Period.
There is no verse in the 7 epistles of Paul to
the Jews; nor the 7 epistles of Paul to the gentiles
that says Jesus will come for the Church Age Saints
right before the Antichrist takes over all the important
parts of the world.
There is no verse in the 7 NT General Epistles
that mentions Ed Edwards or DeafPosttrib
will or will not get saved.
"There is no verse' is a way overused phrase.
Anyway, if only one verse says something,
it probably isn't important enough to be concerned
about; all the great themes of God are repeted in
verse after verse after passage

No my friend, there is no one verse that should be
the sole basis for any doctrine.

Isa 28:9-10 (KJV1611 Edition):
Whome shall he teach knowledge?
and whom shall he make to vnderstand doctrine?
them that are weaned from the milke,
and drawen from the breasts.
10 For precept must be vpon precept,
precept vpon precept,
line vpon line, line vpon line,
here a litle, and there a litle.

Here is the pretribualtion rapture is one word:

1 Co 16:22 ()KJV1611 Edition):
If any man loue not the Lord Iesus Christ,
let him bee Anathema
Maranatha.

Here are the two comings of Christ in one verse:

2Th 2:1 (KJV1611 Edition):
Now wee beseech you, brethren,
by the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ,
and by our gathering together vnto him,

Here are the two comings of Christ in one verse again:

Tit 2:13 (KJV1611 Edition):
Looking for
that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing of the great God,
and our Sauiour Iesus Christ,

But the greatest source of the two phases of
the full Second Coming of Messiah Jesus is
in in the words of Jesus in the whole chapter
of Matthew 24.

 

[Ed Edwards]

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables in Matthew 24:45 through Matthew 25..

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur
(not in the order in which the questions were asked):

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
(in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
instead of an outline. This is most noticable
in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.

I believe the major outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib: //Also, 'rightly dividing the word of truth'
of 2 Tim. 2:15 doesn't mean that we cut them into pieces,
it means we have to digging them deeper
by examing or analyzing them as study
to handling God's Word carefully and serious.//

Amen, Brother DeafPosttrib -- Preach it! :thumbs:

But be careful if someone has already dug deeper than you.
Be not offended by them lest thee violate this:

1 Th 5:20 (KJV1611 Edition):
Despise not prophecyings:

 

[Ed Edwards]

see post #110 on this page:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=31304&page=11

be sure to come back!

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib:

Matthew 25:31-46 teaching us,
Christ shall judge the world at once
by follow after his coming at the end of the age.
Christ shall judge us good or bad - 2 Cor. 5:10.
he judgement seat of Christ doesn't always show
us the positive, there shall be sad results
for any individual after their works show
that they shall fail them, the conclusion
shall send them into the outer darkness - everlasting
fire according Matt. 25:14-30.

Also, Matt. 25:31-46 teaching us of conditional salvation
base upon our actions. Matt. 25:31-46 proves
us that, judgement is for EVERY inidvidual
from all ages from the beginning to the end,
either Jew or Gentile, both all sheep and goats
shall face the judgment seat of Christ.

Actually little of this is correct.

From My five Judgements writing:

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
(AKA: Sheep and Goat Nations judgement, Matthew 25:31-46,
2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:11-15)
WHO: the nations: the living surviver nations of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed nations to Hell; the blessed nations
to the Millennial Messanic KingdomAge

Who: not individuals, but nations
--- Most of the other judgements are of individuals
--- but this judgement is of nations
When: only after the Great Tribulation and before
--- the physical Millinnial Messanic Kingdom
--- Not like the Two Tribulation Period Judgements of
--- the Jews - between the Church Age and the
--- Millinnial Messanic Kingdom age
How, these nations are judged on how they
--- treated the Yisrael (the Jews) during the Tribulation
--- Period. "the least of these my brethren" speaks
--- of the Brothers (sisters) of Jesus: the Jews

There is no CONDITIONAL SALVATION
taught here - this refers only to LOST people consisting the
nations of the Gentiles (only about 8% of the
pre-tribulation population)

This is not a works of individuals judgement
it is a works of nations judgement: how they
treated Yisrael.

 

[Ed Edwards]

2 Timothy 4:1 (KJV1611 Edition):
I charge thee therefore before God,
and the Lord Iesus Christ,
who shall iudge the quicke and the dead
at his appearing, and his kingdome:

This only mentions one coming of the Lord
'his appearing'. But it doesn't say we should
limit the Lord to one and only one coming.

This mentions the certainty of Judgement
by our Lord, Messiah Jesus. It doesn't say
how, when, who He shall judge were.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Good afternoon.

You showed us of phases of Lord's coming with verses.

You mentioned of 1 Cor. 16:22- 'maranatha'.

Word, 'marantha' in Greek means, our Lord has come, an exclamation of the approaching divine judgment.

This verse doesn't prove it is 'pretrib'. It have do nothing with the timing of Lord's coming. This verse is talking about individual, anyone who do not love the Lord, let him be cursed and judged(damnation) - divine judgment. That mean, a person do not follow the Lord, will recieve serious conclusion or result at the judgement day, will suffer the wrath of the Lord.

Same with Isaiah 65:20b- "...but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.". That mean, a sinner, who reject Christ, and remain in sins, will be cursed and judged- punishment.

Commentary of Matthew Henry explains 1 Cor. 16:22: "[Italic]Let him be separated from the people of God, from the favour of God, and delivered up to his final, irrevocable, and inexorable vvengeance" Marantha is a Syriac phrase, and signifies 'The Lord cometh'. That very Lord whom they do not love, to whom they are inwardly and really disffected whatever outward profession they make is coming to EXECUTE JUDGMENT[emphasis mine). And to be exposed to his wrath, to be divided to his left hand, to be condemned by him, how dreadful!"[/Italic].

Henry explained this verse, it talks about a perosn, who do not love the Lord, shall received condemned and punishment by the Lord at the judgment day.

1 Cor. 16:22 have do nothing with the timing of 'rapture' or, "pretrib" either.

You mentioned of 2 Thess. 2:1.

You separated - 'by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ' and 'and by our gathering together unto him.' Into two phases of His coming. Ok, I ask you, HOW do you know which one of them is 'pretrib' or 'postrib'? You keep on saying of verses relate with the word, 'and'.

Early Church understoods 2 Thess. 2:1 telling us, that our gathering together unto him shall be AT his coming. Very simple and plain. Our gathering together CANNOT be separate from His coming according to 1 Thess. 4:15.

There is no hint of 2 Thess. 2:1 shows us, it is two phrases of His coming. This verse telling us that, our gathering together unto Christ shall be INCLUDE with his coming same time. Simple and plain.

You mentioned of Titus 2:13.

You called, 'that blessed hope' is "pretrib rapture", as you separate 'the glorious appearing of the great God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ', it is "posttrib" or "second coming". You cut 'the blessed hope' & 'the glorious appearing' into two phases of His coming.

Apostle Paul never saying that 'the blessed hope' is "pretrib". None of Early Church saying of this.

The 'blseed hope' is not talk about escape from the coming tribulaiton or persecution. It is talking about our future final eternal state - eternal life according to Titus 1:2, "In hope (of what?) -ETERNAL LIFE, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;"

Also, in Titus 3:7 says, "That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of (what?-) ETERNAL LIFE."

The blessed hope is speak of eternal life - salvation through Jesus Christ.

Luke 21:28 tells us, when these things came to pass, then we lift our heads up for OUR 'REDEMPTION' draweth nigh."

What our redemption speaks of? It speaks of our body all shall chnaged into immortality - 1 Cor. 15:51-57.

Same with Romans 8:19-23 tells us, that we are eager looking forward for our body to be chnage dinto immortality.

So, there shall be NO MORE DEATH at Lord's coming.

Death shall be cast away, and God shall wipe our tears away, there shall be no more death again in Rev. 21:4.

Our body all shall be changed into immortality by follow at the coming of our Lord- glorious appearing same time.

I want to discuss on word, 'and'.

You cut them into two phases of His coming of Titus 2:13 because of word, 'and'.

Titus 2:13 shows us very clear, that our blessed hope shall be follow at his glorious appearing same time. Early Church understoods Titus 2:13 well.

John 14:6 says, "I am the way, the truth, AND the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Christ tells us, He is the life doesn't separate from 'the truth', 'the way'. Christ have many characters yet, it shows WHO he is.

Matt. 28:19 - "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, AND of the Son, AND of the Holy Ghost."

Does this verse telling us there are three gods?

How about 1 John 5:7-8? It says, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, AND the Holy the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, AND the water, AND the blood: and these three agree in ONE."

This passage telling us, there are three persons of God, yet, all are equal same- it is the doctrine of the deity of God.

So, the point is, Titus 2:13 doesn't give us the hint that, there are two phases of His coming, it tells us, that our blessed hope shall be follow AT his glorious appearing same time. Simple and plain.

You say,

But the greatest source of the two phases of the full Second Coming of Messiah Jesus is in in the words of Jesus in the whole chapter of Matthew 24

Oh really? Please show me a verse in Matthew 24 show there are two phases of His coming.

No signs precedding the end of age

Oh really? Why does Christ mentioned signs of Matt. 24:4-14, 15-21, & 27-31?

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the Tribulation period

Yeah?

So, are we already in tribulation right now?

What's your point of this? You mean that, 'the Sign of "His Coming" is 'pretrib' rapture?

You mnetione dof 2 Tim. 4:1:

This only mentions one coming of the Lord 'his appearing'. But it doesn't say we should limit the Lord to one and only one coming

Limit? Does any postrib person saying that we limit the Lord to one and only one coming? Nobody saying it. I never limit it.

Postribs understands Bible teaching us very clear that the Lord shall come at once, not twice.

How about Hebrews 9:28? It says, "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many, and unto them that look for him shall he appear the SECOND TIME without sin unto salvation."

The Bible teaches us, Christ came at the first time for sacrifice on the cross for salvation. Then at the second time, Chhrist shall come for to judgment.

Does Heb. 9:28 tells us, that Christ shall come again third time in the future?

Pretribs saying rapture is NOT the second coming. So, that means, they teaching Christ shall come again second time as rapture FOR the "Church", then 7 years later, Christ shall come again third time FOR "Israel", included all nations.

Three times?

Where did pretribs get the idea come from?

You continued on n1 Tim. 4:1:

This mentions the certainity of Judgment by our Lord, Messiah Jesus. It doesn't say how, when, who He shall judge were.

Oh come on. No excuse.

Use your common sense.

Matthew 25:31-46 clearly teaching us, there shall be general judgement of EVERY individuals from all nations at his appearing - once.

Even, also, in Acts 17:30-31 as Paul said, "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth ALL MEN everywhere to repentrefer with 2 Peter 3:9) Because he hath appointed A DAY(judgment seat of Christ/great white throne), in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordianed; whereof he hath given assurance unto ALL MEN, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

Paul taught us very clear it will be the general judgment follow at the coming of the Lord.

Also, it refers to John 5:27-29 speaks of the general judgment by follow the resurrection of the just and the wicked on the 'last day' of John 6:39,40,44, & 54.

One more thing to tell you.

You always keep on separate Matt. 24:31 from verse 29-30, as, you say verse 31 is "pretrib" rapture. You didn't follow the hermenutic rule - 'Intepreting in CONTEXTUALLY'. You cannot do that, that is against Christ's lecture. You have to accept what He saying it. Believe his lecture.

No excuse for you, you must be aware that our gathering together shall be immediately after the tribulation of Matt. 24:29-31, because of what Christ saying so. Clear, it is posttribulational coming. You cannot find pretribulational coming anywhere in the context of Matthew 24.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib: //Word, 'marantha' in Greek means, our Lord has come,
an exclamation of the approaching divine judgment.//

Amen, Brother DeafPosttrib - Preach it!

'Maranatha' is a clearly pre-tribulation rapture term.
Nobody save those facing the DIVINE JUDGMENT
at the Mercy Seat of Christ can look forward to
divine judgment. 'Maranatha' is said most frequently by
those who entirely trust Jesus to save them now and
forever.

DeafPosttrib:

Ed Edwards: // 2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the Tribulation period//

Yeah?

So, are we already in tribulation right now?

What's your point of this? You mean that,
'the Sign of "His Coming" is 'pretrib' rapture?

No, I mean what I said: //The Sign of His coming will be the Tribulation period//
That is also what the Bible teaches: Daniel, Ezekiel Jesus, Paul, Peter,
and Saint John the Divine all agree on their teachings:
the sign of the Coming of Jesus to defeat the Antichrist, destroy
the foes of Jesus, and set up a physical Millinnial Messanic
Kingdom -- that is preceded by the Tribulation Period.
Yet the length is known (Daniel's 70th 'week' of seven years),
the purpose is known (the Lord wins a maximum number of Jews
unto Himself), etc. etc.
This is a BIG TIME SIGN.
The sign is documented in Matthew 24:15-30.

By contrast the pretribulation rapture of the Church Age elect Christian
saints is totally without preceeding signs.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14
are signs the Church Age continues.

----------------------------------
Consider Matthew 24:14

Matthew 24:14 (HCSB):

This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed
in all the world as a testimony to all nations.
And then the end will come.


Items quoted from THE ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD,
1991-1992 Edition (Tyndale, 1990), page 305+.

61AD - Colossians 1:6 (HCSB):
the gospel that has come to you. It is bearing fruit
and growing all over the world, just as it has
among you since the day you heard it and recognized
God's grace in the truth.

c. 140AD - Hermas writes: "The Son of God ... has
been preached to the ends of the earth" (Shepherd
of Hermas).

197AD - Tertullian (c160-222) ... writes ... "There
is no nation indeed which is not Christian" ...

c. 205AD - Clement of Alexandria (c155-215) ... writes
"The whole world, with Athens and Greece, has already
become the domain of the Word."

c. 310 - Eusebius of Caesarea (c265-339) writes ...
""The doctrine of the Savious
has irradiated the whole Oikumene
(whole inhabited earth)"

378 - Jerome (c345-419) writes: "From India to Britian, all
nations resound with the death and resurrection of CHrist".
estimates 1.9 million Christians to have been marytred
since AD33 (out of 120 million Christians). ...

etc.

------------------------
Deafposttrib: //So, are we already in tribulation right now?//

Not even close to what the Bible says
nor what I said.
The TRIBULATION PERIOD is a time, a period,
'Tribulation' is suffering. There is suffering right now
but a special period of special suffering by all humanity
is NOT upon us right now. (In fact, that is the viewpoint
of several non-pretrib/pre-millinnial folks:
" we are in the Tribulation now".)

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

Show me where can you find pretribulation rapture in Matthew 24.

Second, does Christ actual saying there are two phases of the coming in Matthew 24??

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

I can't make the blind see - I'm not Jesus.

I've shown you many times.
But you haven't chosen to see it.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Then, why you saying Matt. 24:31 is pretrib rapture? Does Christ actual saying verse 31 is pretrib rapture?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Yes

I can't make the deaf hear - I'm not Jesus.

I've shown you many times
that Matthew 24 is about (among other
subjects) the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.
Jesus said it.
Paul wrote it.
Peter wrote it.
Saint John the Divine wrote it.