Pre-trib rapture

I've not studied all EdEdward's 'arguments' so I don't know exactly how he derives what he believes, and all his positions, or "divisions', any more than I know how you derive what you (dwmoeller1) believe, and all your positions, or "divisions'; I only know at how I get to where I am.

I am a firm believer in the pre-trib rapture. I merely do not rely on Matt. 24, alone or even particularly significantly for this position. Is Matt. 24 talking about either "AD70 or the pre-trib rapture"? Neither one, per se, for all this 'time period' spoken of, save possibly the "travail", is yet future when Jesus spoke. As we now look back historically (as opposed to hysterically ) we must ask "Does the history of what happened around AD70 fit all the criteria in the passage?" Not IMO, so I conclude this is not yet fulfilled completely. Hence, at least some of it remains to be yet fulfilled, assuming it is not all merely figurative language, which it does not seem to be, upon reading the passage.

Ed

 

EdEdwards was right in one aspect, at least. And that is his usage of "polysyndeton", IMO. The NT is written entirely in Greek, hence the inherent meaning of "polysyndetos" would apply, here, as in the Greek language and grammar, and not the "English flavor" of the word, polysyndeton, which you have rightly noted contains the "in close succession" bit. The derivation is OK, but that is not the inherent Greek meaning, as I have given that previously. And as the NT was, once again, written in Greek, then Greek grammar 'rules' apply, not English.

Ed

 

..........

 

"Polysyndeton" is English, and "applies" to English; "polysyndetos" (πολυςυνδητος) is Greek and "applies" to Greek. The Greek term does not carry the force of "in close succession", inherently in the word, itself, hence it is improper to 'demand' this be the case. (The Greek word is not found in Scripture, BTW, but that alone does not negate its inherent meaning of "using or having multiple connectives".)

And who are you, or I, or anyone else to decide these conjunctions are "generally where they are not needed" when the Holy Spirit inspired the writers to pen them in Scripture. It seems He and the writers decided they were 'needed', else they would not be there.

Ed

 

I'm not sure what the "challenge" is supposed to be.

Ed

 

Hey dw!

d-dub -- I feel as if you don't even realize that you are saying, "There is no evidence of the pretrib rapture in the NT that I will accept as pretrib." Do you not see yourself saying that?

Nevertheless, 1Thes 4 was written with the idea that the dead Thessalonians were going to miss the rapture -- not the tribulation. Don't you think that the Thessalonians would have been happy for the dead if they were going to miss the tribulation? But they are GRIEVING that the dead might miss the rapture -- to which Paul tells them that we will by no means precede them, Paul even saying, "Then WE which are alive and remain shall be caught up..."

Did you get that? WE! Paul, too! Were they in the tribulation already? No. Did Paul expect they were in "The Tribulation?" No -- look at 2Thes 1-2. Paul knows what to look for and he ain't seein' it! Yet he had said "'WE' ... shall be caught up..." from these people who "trouble you."

I mean, dw, this is the whole description of Paul on the subject. The problem appears to be that people today isolate the verses, dissect them, and throw the parts away that they don't like.

And where is the rapture called a mystery? 1Cor 15:51, d-dub. Your quibbling about "not all sleep" lacks sincerity, friend. We all know what the verse is talking about.

skypair

 

Webster's Dictionary should show the origin, and inherent meaning, at least ours does.

Ed

 

dwmoeller1: //What greek authority would say that
an 'kai' at the beginning of a sentence is
a disjunctive rather than conjunctive?//

No greek authority said that.
You said that -- need I say: wrongly?

You have misunderstood this nit* from the beginning.
And even if I'm wrong with this nit, I've present
thousands of points which you have overlooked.

*note: a 'nit' is the egg of a head lice

No matter what you call the use of 'kai' as the Greek
form of an outline (I'm happy calling it 'polysyndeton'),
one can make an outline of Chapter 24 of Matthew.
What are the answers to the questions the
disciples asked in Matthew 24:3? Jesus answered
directly in Matthew 24:4-44 (and in Matthew 24:45
through Matthew 25, by parable).

dwmoeller1: //So I ask again: What passage speaks
of the rapture as being a mystery?//

dwmoeller1: //You didn't answer the question.//

Actually I did answer the question. You did not receive the answer.

 

Sure! to the final glorified state, right? Not just taken out of the ground to the earth. That's resurrection whereas the rapture is a specific resurrection -- changed to "celestial glory." Able to live in heaven, not just on earth.

Versus look at Ezek 37:12-14, Isa 26:19-21, Job 10:25-28, Dan 12:2, Psa 50:3-5. These are all the resurrection to earth seen in the OT and, therefore, NOT mysteries. This is the distinction I believe Paul is making in that he calls the "change" a "mystery."

What were your comments about 1Thes 4-5 and 2Thes 1-2? I hope you will study them and answer.

skypair

 

Language Cop, here! (alter-ego of EdSutton)

FTR, you have offered no source of "Greek authority" to indicate your take is superior to that of Ed or t'other Ed, other than cite some unknown, unsupported, and 'unnamed' 'collective' of

without citing any (I, personally, refuse to knuckle under to some ethereal "weight of scholarship", absent evidence.), but that is beside the point, I guess.

Webster's doesn't even deal with English grammar, per se, only incidentally, and tangentially, as it gives a definition or definitions of a word, let alone Greek grammar.

But that in no way negates the definition of the Greek word. And as the Greek language is not spoken by me, and is not of any particular importance to me, save the koine Greek of the NT, I only have a couple of lexicons, namely Thayer's and Wigram's. And I have a couple of grammars from Bible College that are somewhere, I think, but I could not find them very easily, having since moved, even if it were necessary. So I am at the 'mercy' of others, here.

I will give the complete text found in Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, 1977 Edition, as well as I can reproduce it on the computer (I'm no computer 'whiz', in being able to do about anything with it, unlike my bride). Note the English definition starts after the colon.

poly.syn.de.ton \-'sin-d&- itan\ n. [NL, fr. LGk, neut. of polysyndetos using many conjunctions, fr. Gk poly- + syndetos bound together, conjunctive -- more atASYNDETON] : repetition of conjunctions in close succession (as in we have ships and men and money and stores)

The fact that this compound word comes from Later Greek means that Scriptures predates the word, and the attempt to antedate Scripture by retroactively applying this more limited (English) definition is faulty methodology, at best.

Signed, Language Cop