Pre-trib rapture

[skypair]

Do you guys realize...

...in all your speculations that there are not DOTL's for the church -- only for Israel?

Yeah -- our day is the "day of Christ."

So when you see DOTL (as in "great and terrible day of the Lord"), realize that Israel is being dealt with and the church is out of the way.


skypair

 

[dwmoeller1]

Post #10 is a summary of Biblical ideas plus my insites
IT IS NOT A LOGICAL PROOF.

So why should I accept your insights that are not based upon what Scripture *says*? Thats what it boils down to. I ask for what Scripture *says* to support your view and so far the argument relies on personal insight to reach the position of pre-trib.

IOW, Scripture itself, is not sufficient an interpreter of itself. What Scripture plainly says is trumped by your own personal insight into it.

Ok, thats fine.

Now is there anyone out there who cares to support the pretrib rapture based on what Scriptures says without the need to rely on person insight?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Dwmoeller1: //So why should I accept your insights
that are not based upon what Scripture *says*? //

define what you understand when i use the
phrase 'logical proof'. I think the 'logical' is
added to 'proof' for there are other types of
ways to prove things than 'logical proof'.

IMHO all my insights are based upon what
Scripture *says*.
And so are my posts.

Dwmoeller1: //IOW, Scripture itself, is not sufficient
an interpreter of itself. What Scripture plainly says
is trumped by your own personal insight into it.//

Dwmoeller1: //So why should I accept your insights that
are not based upon what Scripture *says*?//

As a Baptist you can take 'em or leave 'em.
But God didn't make you and I to cross paths
for no reason at all.

Dwmoeller1 in OP (opening post):
//1. No statements about the other side not
understanding Scripture, etc. They are unhelpful and, IMO, prideful sorts of things.//

If it weren't for that in the OP, i'd
probably write:
----------------------------------------
I believe the Bible is the
inerrant written words of God.
It is nonsense for me to
believe that my understanding
of all the Bible is inerrant.

You believe your Bible is the
inerrant written words of God.
It is nonsense for me to
believe that your understanding
of all your Bible is inerrant.

Surely i have respect enough for my
Brother in Christ that i will allow you your
opinion. If further you believe your
opinion, i will allow that also.
But i will receive the same consideration
for my opinion/belief.
I am speaking of my opinion of what the Bible
said versus your opinion of what the Bible said.
What the Bible said is true, what
the Bible means is your opinion or
is my opinion.
Don't let your opinion of what the Bible meant
get confused with what the Bible said.
Don't let your opinion of what Jesus meant
get confused with what Jesus said.
----------------------------------------

 

[Ed Edwards]

...in all your speculations that there are not DOTL's for the church -- only for Israel?

Yeah -- our day is the "day of Christ."

So when you see DOTL (as in "great and terrible day of the Lord"), realize that Israel is being dealt with and the church is out of the way.


skypair

Amen, Brother Skypair -- Preach it!

---------------------------------------------------------------
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The time line according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The time line according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
as will 80% of Baptists and 60% of kindred Christians.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

dwmoeller1,

You are not alone. I am also amill/postrib. I have been debate with Ed Edwards for long time.

Ed always separate Matt. 24:31 from Matt. 24:29-30. He says, Matt. 24:31 is 'pretrib rapture'. I keep on told Ed many times, that he didn't follow the Hermentic Rule - 'Intepretering in CONTEXTUALLY'. Because, he cuts verse 31 out of Matt. 24:29-31`as context when Christ spoken of the signs in the air, to announcing of his coming shall be immediately after tribulation, then Christ appears in the clouds, he shall send his angels to gathering saints in the air(four winds).

Ed already aware that, most pretribbers would not agree with him of Matt. 24:31 is pretrib rapture. Because almost all pretribbers are aware of Matt. 24:31 speaks of posttribulational gathering because of its context with Matt. 24:29-31.

Also, 2 Thess. 2:1-4 telling us, do not let anyone deceive us of any meaning like, rumours, teachings, saying that Christ is come anytime very soon or already arrived. Paul tells us, day(our gathering/coming) shall NOT come till we shall see apostasy first and the revealed of Antichrist, and he shall persecute against Christians(temple of God v. 4), clearly, that passage cannot be pretribulational.

This weekend I will be out of the town for vacation. I will be right back after March 25th, I will root for you and help you to show the truth from the Bible to them on the second coming.

Myself was before pretrib years ago. I left pretrib camp in 1992. But, I was still premill for the next 8 years. Then, in year 2001, I became amill, because I saw Matt. 25:31-46 teaching us very clear it is posttribulational, a general judgment, and even, it is amill. God's Word caused my beliefs changed, and I rather follow what God's Word saying than what men saying according Colossians 2:8.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

You should be aware of Rev. 4:1. There are few things are missing in Rev. 4:1.

First, pretrib saying that 1 Thess. 4:15-17 teaching us, when rapture will occur, there will be power appearing of Christ in the clouds of His coming. There will be resurrection, and then alive and remain shall be caught up and bring them gathering together to meet Christ in the air.

There are few things are missing in Rev. 4:1:

1. Christ is not mentioned
2. Christ didn't descend
3. No 'coming' is mentioned
4. Resurrection
5. all Christians are caught up together

dwmoeller1, you can add few more on the list of Rev. 4:1, if you can.

Rev. 4:1 has do nothing with second advent. Rev. 4:1-2 talking about John was called up by through the revelation. Revelation means supernatural communicate between God and man through vision or dream. Rev. 4:1-2 tell the same as Rev. 1:10. Rev. 1:10 speaks of the revelation, that day, the Lord appeared to John on the island, that he heard the sounds like as trumpet, which voice is speak by Jesus Christ. John was in the spirit, doen't mean that, he was changed into immortal (1 Cor. 15:51-54). He spoken of revelation, that the Holy Spirit was moved him to see the future things in the visions. Same with Rev. 4:1-2 talking about the revelation.

'Come up hither' of Rev. 4:1 seems it sounds like as caught up. But, it was speak toward John alone, not whole church. Also, 'come hither' found 3 times in Revelation, which spoke toward John - Rev. 4:1; 17:1; and 21:9.

1. Rev. 4:1 - talk about John was called up by through revelation in the vision. For the purpose, God wants to show John to see the activities in the heaven. I believe the chapter 4 and 5, both are already happening for long time since John was called up, these activities are still continung in the heaven today.

2. Rev. 17:1 - Not talking about second coming nothing at all. John was called by the angel, to show him of Babylon, that God shall judge them.

3. Rev. 21:9 - Not talking about second advent nothing at all. John was called by the angel, to show him of New Jerusalem.

Proving Rev. 4:1 pretrib rapture is fallacy, because it nothing saying anything about Christ's coming at all.

Later I will discuss more things show why there are so many errors within pretrib doctrine.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib: //There are few things are missing in Rev. 4:1:

1. Christ is not mentioned
2. Christ didn't descend
3. No 'coming' is mentioned
4. Resurrection
5. all Christians are caught up together//

I also note that each of these elements are
also missing from:
Romans 10:9 (Geneva Bible, 1587 Edition):
For if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth
the Lord Iesus, and shalt beleeue in thine heart,
that God raised him vp from the dead,
thou shalt be saued:

Though these elements are missing from Romans 10:9,
I still use Romans 10:9 to witness to lost folks - for
it contains the way to be saved.

BTW, Revelation 4:1 contains the pretribulation
only by TYPE. The only common elements
to the pretribulation rapture is the CAUGHT UP
experience (two different Greek words) and
the location of Revelation 4:1 between the
Church Age (Revelation 1-3) and the Tribualtion
(Rev 4-19) -- i.e. the COME UP of John and
the CAUGHT UP of all the Church age
elect born-again saints are located
time-wise the same.

 

[Ed Edwards]

dwmoeller1,

You are not alone. I am also amill/postrib. I have been debate with Ed Edwards for long time.

Ed always separate Matt. 24:31 from Matt. 24:29-30. He says, Matt. 24:31 is 'pretrib rapture'. I keep on told Ed many times, that he didn't follow the Hermentic Rule - 'Intepretering in CONTEXTUALLY'. Because, he cuts verse 31 out of Matt. 24:29-31`as context when Christ spoken of the signs in the air, to announcing of his coming shall be immediately after tribulation, then Christ appears in the clouds, he shall send his angels to gathering saints in the air(four winds). ...

Actually I use the context: Matthew 24:3 is the major
outline of Matthew 24:4-44.

Scripture is from the KJV1611 Edition

Mat 24:3 And as he sate vpon the mount of Oliues, the Disciples came vnto him priuately, saying,
I Tell vs, when shall these things be?
II And what shall be the signe of thy coming,
III and(what shall be the signe) of the end of the world?

That was the order in which the questions were asked.

Here is the time order of the fullfillment of these events:

I Tell vs, when shall these things be?
III and(what shall be the signe) of the end of the world?
II And what shall be the signe of thy coming,

Here is the question & the scripture in the order events come down:

I Tell vs, when shall these things be?
Mat 24:4 And Iesus answered, and said vnto them, Take heed that no man deceiue you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ: and shall deceiue many.
Mat 24:6 And yee shall heare of warres, and rumors of warres: See that yee be not troubled: for all these things must come to passe, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdome against kingdome, and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes in diuers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrowes.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliuer you vp to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and yee shall bee hated of all nations for my names sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false Prophets shall rise, and shall deceiue many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquitie shal abound, the loue of many shall waxe cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure vnto the end, the same shall be saued.
Mat 24:14 And this Gospell of the kingdome shall be preached in all the world,
for a witnesse vnto al nations, and then shall the end come.

III and(what shall be the signe) of the end of the world? (world should be 'age')

Mat 24:31 And hee shall send his Angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall
gather together his Elect from the foure windes, from one end of heauen to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learne a parable of the figtree: when his branch is yet tender, and putteth
foorth leaues, yee know that Summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise yee, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is neere, euen at the doores.
Mat 24:34 Uerely I say vnto you, this generation shall not passe, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heauen and earth shall passe away, but my wordes shall not passe away.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and houre knoweth no man, no, not the Angels of heauen, but my Father onely.
Mat 24:37 But as the dayes of Noe were, so shall also the comming of the Sonne of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the dayes that were before the Flood, they were eating, and drinking,
marrying, and giuing in mariage, vntill the day that Noe entred into the Arke,
Mat 24:39 And knew not vntill the Flood came, and tooke them all away: so shall also
the comming of the Sonne of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field, the one shalbe taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill: the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therfore, for ye know not what houre your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the good man of the house had knowen in what
watch the thiefe would come, he would haue watched, and would not haue suffered his house to be broken vp.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be yee also ready: for in such an houre as you thinke not, the sonne of man commeth.

II And what shall be the signe of thy coming,
Mat 24:15 When yee therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken
of by Daniel the Prophet, stand in the holy place, (who so readeth, let him vnderstand.)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Iudea, flee into the mountaines.
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the house top, not come downe, to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field, returne backe to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And wòe vnto them that are with child, and to them that giue sucke in those dayes.
Mat 24:20 But pray yee that your flight bee not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning
of the world to this time, no, nor euer shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those dayes should be shortned, there should
no flesh be saued: but for the elects sake, those dayes shall be shortned.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say vnto you, Loe, heere is Christ, or there: beleeue it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shal shew great signes and wonders: insomuch that (if it were possible,) they shall deceiue the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I haue told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore, if they shall say vnto you, Behold, he is in the desert,
goe not foorth: Behold, he is in the secret chambers, beleeue it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightening commeth out of the East, and shineth euen vnto
the West: so shall also the coming of the Sonne of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoeuer the carkeise is, there will the Eagles bee gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those dayes, shall the Sunne
be darkned, and the Moone shall not giue her light, and the starres shall fall from
heauen, and the powers of the heauens shall be shaken.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appeare the signe of the Sonne of man in heauen: and
then shall all the Tribes of the earth mourne, and they shall see the Sonne of man coming in the clouds of heauen, with power and great glory.
---------------------------------

 

[dwmoeller1]

Dwmoeller1: //So why should I accept your insights
that are not based upon what Scripture *says*? //

define what you understand when i use the
phrase 'logical proof'.

Starting with suppositions and reasoning deductively to a conclusion without resorting to fallacy.

I think the 'logical' is
added to 'proof' for there are other types of
ways to prove things than 'logical proof'.

Yes, I speak of logical/reasoned proof. When the starting point ultimately relies on 'insights' without an objective basis, I don't consider that 'proof' but more at 'faith'.

IMHO all my insights are based upon what
Scripture *says*.
And so are my posts.

How do you know your insights are based on what Scripture *says*? Can you give an objective basis for this belief?

Dwmoeller1: //IOW, Scripture itself, is not sufficient
an interpreter of itself. What Scripture plainly says
is trumped by your own personal insight into it.//

Dwmoeller1: //So why should I accept your insights that
are not based upon what Scripture *says*?//

As a Baptist you can take 'em or leave 'em.
But God didn't make you and I to cross paths
for no reason at all.

Dwmoeller1 in OP (opening post):
//1. No statements about the other side not
understanding Scripture, etc. They are unhelpful and, IMO, prideful sorts of things.//

If it weren't for that in the OP, i'd
probably write:
----------------------------------------
I believe the Bible is the
inerrant written words of God.
It is nonsense for me to
believe that my understanding
of all the Bible is inerrant.

You believe your Bible is the
inerrant written words of God.
It is nonsense for me to
believe that your understanding
of all your Bible is inerrant.

Surely i have respect enough for my
Brother in Christ that i will allow you your
opinion. If further you believe your
opinion, i will allow that also.
But i will receive the same consideration
for my opinion/belief.
I am speaking of my opinion of what the Bible
said versus your opinion of what the Bible said.
What the Bible said is true, what
the Bible means is your opinion or
is my opinion.
Don't let your opinion of what the Bible meant
get confused with what the Bible said.
Don't let your opinion of what Jesus meant
get confused with what Jesus said.
----------------------------------------

I have no problem with varying opinions. The question I am interested in is "What are those opinions based upon? If the basis is ultimately subjective, then I have little interest as I cannot be you and you cannot be me, therefore no meaningful teaching/learning/understanding of doctrine can take place on the subjective level. So, I am interested in the objective basis for your doctrine.

Can one be perfectly objective? No. But ultimately our goal in doctrine should be to discover what Scripture *says*, not 'what do I think about what Scripture say'. Obviously the latter is what we are more likely to arrive at, but we should not settle with that but always seek to line up more closely what we think about Scripture with what Scripture actually says and communicates.

So, when we communicate doctrine and truth to others, logic is the form it must take. So yes, when I refer to 'proof', I refer to 'logical proof' - starting from suppositions and working deductively to a conclusion without resorting to fallacy.

So my question to you is how do you *show*, in communicable terms, that your doctine is what Scripture actually teaches.

 

[dwmoeller1]

Let me restate this so maybe I am more clear.

Can anyone in the pretrib camp start with a set of suppositions and reason deductively to a pretrib conclusion without resorting to fallacy?

Ed, teacher of logic, I am most interested if you are willing to take this challenge. I see all your arguments, but I can't seem to get you to work from a set of suppositions.

 

[dwmoeller1]

Actually I use the context: Matthew 24:3 is the major
outline of Matthew 24:4-44.

Scripture is from the KJV1611 Edition

Mat 24:3 And as he sate vpon the mount of Oliues, the Disciples came vnto him priuately, saying,
I Tell vs, when shall these things be?
II And what shall be the signe of thy coming,
III and(what shall be the signe) of the end of the world?

That was the order in which the questions were asked.

Here is the time order of the fullfillment of these events:

I Tell vs, when shall these things be?
III and(what shall be the signe) of the end of the world?
II And what shall be the signe of thy coming,

I see the divisions you make. What I don't see is the basis for you making the divisions where you do. Can you give an explanation for dividing where you divide? For instance, why not include vs. 31, 32 with section II instead of putting them with section III?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Dwmoeller1: //Yes, I speak of logical/reasoned proof. When the starting
point ultimately relies on 'insights' without an objective basis,
I don't consider that 'proof' but more at 'faith'.//

OK. I'll start all my future posts with 'I Beleive'?

Dwmoeller1: //The question I am interested in is "What are those opinions based upon? //

Years of study.
I've been studying this as an Adult & a Christian
for the last 40 years.

Dwmoeller1: //I see the divisions you make. What I don't see is the basis for you making the divisions where you do. Can you give an explanation for dividing where you divide? For instance, why not include vs. 31, 32 with section II instead of putting them with section III?//

I already posted that.
Here, I'll post it again:

-----------------------
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The time line according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The time line according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
as will 80% of Baptists and 60% of kindred Christians.
--------------------------------------------
The three together are as stable as any three-legged
stool. Of course, some will just saw each of the legs
with uneven cuts and it won't be stable???

oops: I hadn't posted that in this topic.
I had posted further details about the Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD)
of Jesus. In the post following is some more details about the
2 Thessalonians 2 account.

There is another topic just on 2 Thessalonians 2 at:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=38115&goto=1

 

[Ed Edwards]

Let me restate this so maybe I am more clear.

Can anyone in the pretrib camp start with a set of suppositions and reason deductively to a pretrib conclusion without resorting to fallacy?

Ed, teacher of logic, I am most interested if you are willing to take this challenge. I see all your arguments, but I can't seem to get you to work from a set of suppositions.

God had given me other things to do with my life.
Check back in a couple of years and maybe things will be
different.

 

[dwmoeller1]

Dwmoeller1: //Yes, I speak of logical/reasoned proof. When the starting
point ultimately relies on 'insights' without an objective basis,
I don't consider that 'proof' but more at 'faith'.//

OK. I'll start all my future posts with 'I Beleive'?

Not interested in that really. I can go to a million websites and see what people believe about the pretrib rapture.. I want to get to the meat of how one derives those beliefs from what Scripture says. Sorry, no offense meant, but I grew up all my life with people telling me what they believed about the pretrib rapture. When I was young, I accepted that. Now that I am older, I don't.

Dwmoeller1: //The question I am interested in is "What are those opinions based upon? //

Years of study.
I've been studying this as an Adult & a Christian
for the last 40 years.

And in those 40 years of study, what in your study led you to those opinions?

Dwmoeller1: //I see the divisions you make. What I don't see is the basis for you making the divisions where you do. Can you give an explanation for dividing where you divide? For instance, why not include vs. 31, 32 with section II instead of putting them with section III?//

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

The time line according to Matthew 24


The time line according to Revelation:


The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

Without touching on your argument here, let me point out that this is a doctrinal argument, not a contextual one. You mentioned that the timeline in Matt 24 was contextually based. So let me be more specific: I am curious as to how you made the divisions you did from the context of the passage. Context comes first, so lets establish what the context itself shows us, then we can bring in other passages to clarify/illuminate the passage.

So, contextually how did you determine the splits? Specifically, how did you contextually determine the division between vs. 30 and vs. 31?

 

[Ed Edwards]

dwmoeller1: //Specifically, how did you contextually determine
the division between vs. 30 and vs. 31?//

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV1611 Edition):
Now wee beseech you, brethren,
by the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ,
and by our gathering together vnto him,

Matthew 24:31 (KJV1611 Edition):
And hee shall send his Angels with a great sound
of a trumpet, and they shall gather together
his Elect from the foure windes, from one end
of heauen to the other.

These two verses seem to be speaking of
the same event.

The 70th week of Daniel must have events happening
at the beginning, the middle, and the end.

Furthermore, Matthew 24:4-44 is the easiest of the
MOD (mount olivet discourse) readings to see which
of the questions are being answered by what.
Matthew 24 features the polysendton (how about that,
a figure of speach right in a prophecy) 'and' (or in Greek, the
'kai'). Recall that the author of Matthew didn't have
microsoft to make his bullets or outline with -- he used
the polysendton 'kai' ('and' in English, sometimes then, for,
afterwords, but, etc)

 

[Ed Edwards]

The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
(AKA: Wrath of the Lamb /Revelation 6:17/ )
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Note that #1, #2, and #3 are measured in travail units;
#4 and #5 are measured in time units.

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:

----------------------------

 

[Ed Edwards]

"tribulations" in nKJV:

1Sa 10:19 (nKJV):
But you have today rejected your God, who Himself saved you from all your adversities and your tribulations; and you have said to Him, 'No, set a king over us!' Now therefore, present yourselves before the Lord by your tribes and by your clans."

3,000 years before the Tribulation Period, has to be:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

Ac 14:22 (nKJV):
strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, "We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God."

The Kingdom of God is with us, not all are persecuted,
must be the most likly:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

Ac 20:23 (nKJV):
except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Ro 5:3 (nKJV):
And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;

Most likely: Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

2Co 6:4 (nKJV):
But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses,

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Eph 3:13 (nKJV):
Therefore I ask that you do not lose heart at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

Most likely: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

2Th 1:4 (nKJV):
so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Heb 10:33 (nKJV):
partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles


"tribulation" in nKJV:

1Sa 26:24 (nKJV):
And indeed, as your life was valued much this day in my eyes, so let my life be valued much in the eyes of the Lord, and let Him deliver me out of all tribulation."

1. tribulation due to the human condition>
surley not 3,000+ years before futurists Trib Period
or 1,000+ years before before a-mill Trib Period

Mt 13:21 (nKJV):
yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Most likely:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

Mt 24:9 (nKJV):
Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

Got to be:
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
or 3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Mt 24:21 (nKJV):
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This follows the AOD, it is: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist


Mt 24:29 (nKJV):
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

After 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist, the Lord will come in power and glory to
defeat the Antichrist.

Mr 4:17 (nKJV):
and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word's sake, immediately they stumble.

Most likely: 2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom, which is persecution

Mr 13:19 (nKJV):
For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.

This is a paralell Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) passage
refering to: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

Mr 13:24 (nKJV):
"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;

MOD, again: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

Joh 16:33 (nKJV):
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

One of these: 1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
but not: 4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

Ro 2:9 (nKJV):
tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

Ro 5:3 (nKJV):
And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;

Most likely, 1. tribulation due to the human condition, which happen to everybody

Ro 8:35 (nKJV):
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Could be any of the first three

Ro 12:12 (nKJV):
rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer;

Most likely,m 1. tribulation due to the human condition, which happens to everybody

2Co 1:4 (nKJV):
who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

Most likely is the most common: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

2Co 7:4 (nKJV):
Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my boasting on your behalf. I am filled with comfort. I am exceedingly joyful in all our tribulation.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
Paul was NOT in the tribulation periods.

1Th 3:4 (nKJV):
For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.

Paul suffered from the three conditions:
Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
Paul did not suffer from either of the two tribulation periods:



2Th 1:6 (nKJV):
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,

Why should God wait until the Tribulation Periods
to "repay"? Probably: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

Re 1:9 (nKJV):
I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
Paul did not suffer from either of the two tribulation periods

Re 2:9 (nKJV):
I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles


Re 2:10 (nKJV):
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Likely: Could be any of the first three:
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
or 3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Re 2:22 (nKJV):
Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

Likely 1. tribulation due to the human condition

Re 7:14 (nKJV):
And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist.
These avoid great tribulation by being jerked out
of the world when Jesus comes to get His own.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

Please stay on the same track ok. dwnmeoller1 asked you why you make a division between Matt. 24:30 and 31. You seems hopping as rabbit tail. Please stay on the same topic. I am patient with you. Why you place verse 31 - 'pretrib' rapture after verse 29 and 30. You actuall twist Christ's lecture in opposite side or up-down side.

Ed, HOW can you be sure that Matt. 24:31 shall be occured before tribulation???

You outlined of 'tribulation' with verses. There are many various kinds of tribulations, yet all of these are same meaning. There is no promise that we shall escape from tribulations. Christ tells us, that we shall suffer tribulation, but be cheerful because he overcomes them - John 16:33.

Paul tells us, that we MUST go through MUCH tribulations into the kingdom of God - Acts 14:22.

Paul tells us, that we are appointed for tribulations - 1 Thess. 3:3,4.

Paul tells us, we shall not rest from persecutions, tribulations TILL Christ shall come with his angels - 2 Thess. 1:4-10.

Ed, Romans 10:13 have do nothing with Matt. 24:29-31.

Romans 10:13 talks about anyone who shall call upon the Lord shall be saved - every indidividuals throughout all ages, it have do nothing with eschatology.

Right now, we are in the last days of the signs (Matt. 24:4-28), last days shall be end with the announcing of Christ's coming follow cosmic disturbance in the sky - Matt. 24:29-30. Then, our gathering shall be after tribulation - Matt. 24:29-31.

You cannot cut verse 31 with sisscor and take it out of its context with Matt. 24:29-31, while Christ was speaking of his coming on the same passage.

I want to curious to know why you believe verse 31 is pretrib rapture?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

God only have one people, not division or distinction.

Ephesians 2:11-22 teaching us, that we were strangers, alien, separated from the commonwealth of Israel. But, now Calvary made reconciled Gentiles and Jews became one body, so, it is now no longer divided or distinction. It is now one people. We are God's elect. We are now cizitenship of Israel. Because Christ grafted us on the olive tree to join with believing Jews.

There are so much more verses in the Bible teaching us of one body of Christ, not divided. I can show show you of verses on one body of Christ later after I return home from vacation.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib: //Ed, Romans 10:13 have do nothing with Matt. 24:29-31.//

I politely DISAGREE. Each verse is related to the
other in some manner. God has wonderful plans
for us and NONE of them is to give tests
that 999 out of a thousand will fail. It is Satan, the
father of lies who makes us think we shall be tested
with destructive testing (where stress is added to the
test object to see how much it takes to break it).

DeafPosttrib: //There are so much more verses in the Bible
teaching us of one body of Christ, not divided. I can show
show you of verses on one body of Christ later
after I return home from vacation.//

May God have a lot of good blessings for you, your family,
and your ministry while you are on vacation.

This verse mentions two different groups of
God's elect saints: the Jews and the Church of

1 Corinthians 10:32 (KJV1769 Edition):
Giue none offence, neither to the Iewes,
nor to the Gentiles,
nor to the Church of God: