Predestinate

[canadyjd]

There aren't any preconditions on this familiar verse.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Of course there is. John 3:16 has already been qualified by John 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

John uses an obvious play on the words "wind" and "spirit" which are the same in Greek. The word "wishes" refers to a deliberate determination of the will. Jesus is saying that those who are "born again" (v.3) are born again by the will of Holy Spirit.

This verse is a restatement of John 1:12-13, which states those who are given the right to become the children of God (that is those who believe) are born by the will of God. They are specifically said not to have been born by the will of man.

peace to youraying:

 

[TCGreek]

There aren't any preconditions on this familiar verse.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Let's face it: There are both Calvinists and Arminians on this Board.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Did someone mess up then???

Thanks for the previous clarification. The hebrew word here translated "hell" is sheol. It may be used of the "underworld" or the grave. Given the context of the verse, God declaring a calamity about to befall the children of Israel, I believe it is describing the grave. It is showing that number of the dead would be great, that the common burying places would not be enough to hold them.

The context of the passage is a prophesy about a great destruction of the people, noble and peasent, lowly and mighty.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Let's face it: There are both Calvinists and Arminians on this Board.

That is true. And let's try to make it certain that such discussions generate more light than heat. We all wish to obey and serve our Lord right? None of us have come to a full and complete understand of all things I don't think..

I came accross something Spurgeon wrote which I thought was great.

"When the dogs are fighting, the wolves are rending the sheep."

He commented that lovers of truth and grace should be careful to be in unity. Let's not enter into fighting as brethren while the enemy attacks behing our backs.

 

[Brother Bob]

ReformedBaptistOriginally Posted by Brother Bob
Did someone mess up then???

Thanks for the previous clarification. The hebrew word here translated "hell" is sheol. It may be used of the "underworld" or the grave. Given the context of the verse, God declaring a calamity about to befall the children of Israel, I believe it is describing the grave. It is showing that number of the dead would be great, that the common burying places would not be enough to hold them.

The context of the passage is a prophesy about a great destruction of the people, noble and peasent, lowly and mighty

The context of the verse is how they had sinned.

The word in Greek for hell is:
86
aidhV
haides
hah'-dace
from a - a 1 (as negative particle) and eidw - eido 1492; properly, unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls:--grave, hell.



Then hell in Hebrew;
7585
sh'owl
sheh-ole'
or shol {sheh-ole'}; from 'sha'al' (7592); Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates:--grave, hell, pit.


Isa 5:
11: Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!
12: And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.
13: Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.
14: Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

It says "it" not more graves but "it" because of sin. If it meant more graves it would of said more sheols

It seems to be a place of punishment to me and just one place, not more graves.IMO

That is the only name for hell I can find in OT.

Eze 31:16I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

This is sheol also. I am sure you already know all of this though.........

 

[TCGreek]

That is true. And let's try to make it certain that such discussions generate more light than heat. We all wish to obey and serve our Lord right? None of us have come to a full and complete understand of all things I don't think..

I came accross something Spurgeon wrote which I thought was great.

"When the dogs are fighting, the wolves are rending the sheep."

He commented that lovers of truth and grace should be careful to be in unity. Let's not enter into fighting as brethren while the enemy attacks behing our backs.

Whitefield and Wesley were able to get along for most part.

 

[npetreley]

Let's face it: There are both Calvinists and Arminians on this Board.

I haven't met any Arminians here yet. Only semi-pelagians and some things I have no name for. I just call them all "free-willers". It's easier that way.

 

[TCGreek]

I haven't met any Arminians here yet. Only semi-pelagians and some things I have no name for.

1. Now semi-pelagians is between Pelagianism and Arminianism and it's not a good place to really be.

2. Some have said that they are Arminians. Unless they really don't know what they are.

 

[npetreley]

1. Now semi-pelagians is between Pelagianism and Arminianism and it's not a good place to really be.

2. Some have said that they are Arminians. Unless they really don't know what they are.

I haven't noticed anyone claim to be Arminian, but I'll take your word for it. I don't read every post carefully so I'm sure I missed it.

 

[Watchman]

Then what is it?

An outstanding question!
Predestination is a divine act of God whereby God makes the goal- adoption- certain for the believer.
Ephesians 1:5: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Notice the first sentence in this verse. It says that God has predestinated us unto the Adoption of children.
The first part is "pre", which means before, or beforehand. The last part of the word is "destination" which means the climax, end or farthest extent. The little word pre has to do with something beforehand. The word "destination" has to do with the farthest extent. We can see by this then, that Predestination, according to the precise meaning of the word has to do with: something beforehand and something at the farthest end or termination. Predestination has nothing to do with anything in between. The time is designated by the word "pre" and the farthest extent is designated by the word "destination." It has nothing to do with predetermination; Paul, under inspiration of the Spirit, wrotewhat God’s will is: "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1Ti 2:4)

 

[David Lamb]

What does the Bible say about it?

Men go to hell because of their own choosing. Other men go to heaven because of God's choosing to overcome the sinful mans wicked heart.

I think that point needs emphasising. I often get the impression (maybe a false one, I don't know) that there is a widespread misunderstanding of the Doctrines of Grace/Reformed Doctrine/Calvinism that says that if God predestinates those who are to be saved, then there must be people who end up in hell complaining, "Well, I wanted to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved, but I couldn't, because God didn't predestinate me." That just is not the case, and I am confident that no one on this Board believes that (do they?)

 

[Brother Bob]

Well, if predestination is true, then why is hell enlarging her borders. Why was it not large enough to start with?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

The context of the verse is how they had sinned.

The word in Greek for hell is:
86
aidhV
haides
hah'-dace
from a - a 1 (as negative particle) and eidw - eido 1492; properly, unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls:--grave, hell.



Then hell in Hebrew;
7585
sh'owl
sheh-ole'
or shol {sheh-ole'}; from 'sha'al' (7592); Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates:--grave, hell, pit.


Isa 5:
11: Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!
12: And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.
13: Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.
14: Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

It says "it" not more graves but "it" because of sin. If it meant more graves it would of said more sheols

It seems to be a place of punishment to me and just one place, not more graves.IMO

That is the only name for hell I can find in OT.

Eze 31:16I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

This is sheol also. I am sure you already know all of this though.........

I expect, my dear brother, that we shall end in an agreement to disagree on this subject. I re-read the section and do see in the context both how they had sinned and the judgement proclaimed against them, i.e. sheol enlarging herself. Both terms you shared in Hebrew allow for the definition of grave. Now, I am no Hebrew scholar, but when I am seeking to understand the meaning of a passage I do my best to try not to read into the text pre-conceived ideas. Therefore, I try to let the text define the meaning of a term in its plainest sense, and look to other Scripture for further understanding. The “it” you refer to is clearly sheol, which can mean grave as you and I both defined. I came across the following the passage in this study that shed some more light for me:

Proverbs 30:15-16
The horseleach hath two daughters, crying, Give, give. There are three things that are never satisfied, yea, four things say not, It is enough: The grave; and the barren womb; the earth that is not filled with water; and the fire that saith not, It is enough.

Of course, our word here sheol is translated grave. Not being a scholar myself, I find solace in, after studying the Scripture, to read what more eminent men in the church throughout history have commented upon the verse. None have the idea or application that was made in this thread against the reformed doctrine of predestination. Most refer to this as the grave (by most I mean, Henry, JF&B, Geneva, Calvin, et.) and I especially liked Calvin’s commentary upon the verse. He wrote,

“The general meaning is, that the grave is like a wide and vast gulf, which, at the command of God, yawns to devour men who are condemned to die. This personification carries greater emphasis than if he had said that all are condemned to the grave.”

I think there is insight here into the poetic personification that is intended in the passage. Calvin commented previous to the above quote:

“In this verse the Prophet intended to heighten the alarm of men who were at their ease, and not yet sufficiently affected by the threatenings which had been held out to them. Though it was shocking to behold captivity, and also famine, yet the slowness and insensibility of the people was so great that they did not give earnest heed to these tokens of God’s anger. Accordingly the Prophet threatens something still more dreadful, that hell has opened his belly to swallow them all up.”

I appreciate your challenge upon this verse my brother, and your gracious attitude in it. I have learned quite a bit more about this than previously. At this point I think the application of this verse or others like it is wresting the meaning of the passage to prove some other idea foreign to the context of Scripture here. In other words, your idea hasn’t persuaded me, but it may others.

Thanks again for the thought provoking statements. This was an argument against the reformed doctrine of predestination I personally had not heard before. I shall keep it in memory.

In keeping with my present understanding of Scripture regarding the doctrine of predestination I see no contradiction in it and Isaiah 5 or Ezekiel. Isaiah is not teaching how hell may grow or expand physically. It is a personification showing men that there is no end or exasperation to the judgment of God. This in no way diminishes God’s eternal decree (as defined in this thread previously) or of His eternal counsel to predestine some to eternal life and others to leave in their sins to eternal destruction.
Sincerely,
Your brother in Christ

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Well, if predestination is true, then why is hell enlarging her borders. Why was it not large enough to start with?

I talked with a few brethren concerning your question, and a couple of their own questions came up that I thought were good. Of course, all understand the metaphorical language of the text.

One question is, do you believe God knows the future exhaustively? Why does hell's mouth (clearly a metaphore) have to remain fixed from the beginning of time? Why would it be described as a mouth unless it could open wide? This brother, and I agree, see that it is clearly metaphorical. The point is showing that God's indescribale judgment that awaits the wicked in human terms.

RB

 

[Dewey Sturgell]

old regular

you fellows really gave me a good laugh about what your debate is :I myself agree with the reformed baptist,but im not really sure what reformation of a baptist is but its all good, to think that God almighty doenst have total control of our souls is saying that he left a loophole for man to decide his fate of his own soul,and if that was the case which I dont think that! then he could decide for himself what and when he wanted to be inlighten,converted,conformed,quicken and turn to God.for if it where left up to man he wouldnt retain God in his knowledge . so it takes a SOVEREIGN GOD to decide our fates yes ibelieve that our fates rest in God for us intime. May the Grace of our Lord be with you. amen

 

[ReformedBaptist]

you fellows really gave me a good laugh about what your debate is :I myself agree with the reformed baptist,but im not really sure what reformation of a baptist is but its all good, to think that God almighty doenst have total control of our souls is saying that he left a loophole for man to decide his fate of his own soul,and if that was the case which I dont think that! then he could decide for himself what and when he wanted to be inlighten,converted,conformed,quicken and turn to God.for if it where left up to man he wouldnt retain God in his knowledge . so it takes a SOVEREIGN GOD to decide our fates yes ibelieve that our fates rest in God for us intime. May the Grace of our Lord be with you. amen

Thanks brother. When I told my reformed friends the question they laughed too...Maybe I take myself too seriously. lol

 

[Dewey Sturgell]

old reguler

your welcome my friend , also to add to your comment of predistination, would you agree or disagree to the phrase of two seed ;one for glory and the other for damnation?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

your welcome my friend , also to add to your comment of predistination, would you agree or disagree to the phrase of two seed ;one for glory and the other for damnation?

I guess. I suppose I just used the term vessels.

 

[Dewey Sturgell]

old regular

well then how about i said that Gods creation was born from thier mothers womb to heaven or hell?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

well then how about i said that Gods creation was born from thier mothers womb to heaven or hell?

I guess I just prefer to use God's words. lol

"Have ye not asked them that go by the way? and do ye not know their tokens, That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath." Job 21:29-30

But some men's words are better than I can say,

"By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice."