Predestinate

[Martin]

We do not believe everyone is predestinated to heaven or hell. We do believe in predestination, but not in the sense you speak of.

==Then you don't believe the Scripture's teaching on this issue. Scripture clearly teaches that God elected certain people to salvation (2Thess 2:13, 2Tim 2:10, 2Tim 1:9, Eph 1, Rom 8-9, etc). Those who are not elect to salvation are left in their sin (preterition). That is not double-predestination. God choose to have grace on some and to leave others (Rom 9:15-16). The result is that those who are left remain in their sin and unbelief (their "natural" state).

Isa 5:14Therefore hell hath enlarged herself,

==The passage is talking about death and not hell. The KJV's translation there is poor. The grammer and context support that. God knows perfectly who will be saved and who will remain lost and end up in hell.

I don't really care what James White wrote.

==Would I be safe in assuming you have never read White's book? His book, and the chapter I mentioned, does a good job of showing the doctrinal danger of the position you (and many other evangelical Christians) hold. His position is perfectly Biblical and is not dependent upon a certain "pet" translation or upon humanistic/arminian assumptions. Like Edwards, Luther, and Spurgeon, White allows the text of Scripture to speak for itself. Even when what it says drives a nail into the heart of human dignity.

I use the scripture. Why is hell enlarging herself, if all is already predestinated. Seems He would of known what size to build it.

==You seem to be promoting some form of open theism.

 

[Martin]

While you are at it, you will need to change some words in the following scripture to fit your theology.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Rom 1:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

==Popping off "proof texts" without examining their context/grammer (etc) is meaningless. Roman Catholics and Mormons can do that all day. I don't have to change any wording of any of those passages. Nice try though. :thumbs:

 

[Brother Bob]

A whole lot of assumptions and no scripture. I also see you never bothered to answer any scripture I provided to you. You Sir, are the one who has the wrong theology of the scripture.

John 3:16 is enough to blow your theology out of the water.

 

[Martin]

A whole lot of assumptions and no scripture. I also see you never bothered to answer any scripture I provided to you. You Sir, are the one who has the wrong theology of the scripture.

==If you look at my two replies you easily see how wrong your statement is. I am still wondering if you hold to some form of open theism. It seems that you do. Btw, open theism is pure heresy.

John 3:16 is enough to blow your theology out of the water.

==Actually I believe John 3:16. Whoever believes in Christ will be saved.

 

[Dale-c]

John 3:16 is enough to blow your theology out of the water.

Not at all. Whosoever believes will be saved.
Only those elected by God will believe.
No conflict at all.

 

[Martin]

I also see you never bothered to answer any scripture I provided to you.

==You popped off a bunch of proof texts. Anyone can do that (Catholics, Mormons, JWs, etc). Many of those passages have NOTHING to do with election at all. Some of the passages you quoted actually refute YOUR position if they are allowed to speak for themselves (2Pet 3:9).

Just as a point of fact, I provided Scriptures for you (first) and you did not answer those.

 

[Brother Bob]

Only those elected by God will believe.
No conflict at all.

scripture...........

A. T. Robertson: [The word "world" in John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world" - means] "the whole cosmos of men, including the Gentiles, the whole human race," and adds that "this universal aspect of God's love appears also in II Cor. 5:19; Rom. 5:8."

Martin Luther (1483-1546): "Christ is not cruel exactor, but a forgiver of the sins of the whole world....He hath given Himself for our sins, and with one oblation hath put away the sins of the whole world....Christ hath taken away the sins, not of certain men only, but also of thee, yea, of the whole world...Not only my sins and thine, but also the sins of the whole world...take hold upon Christ."

The 6th council in Constantinople (680-681) declared, "Wherefore we confess two wills and two operations, concurring most fitly in him for the salvation of the human race."

The reformers, and certainly the children of the reformers, were not united on this matter. It is, of course, no secret to the student of the Reformation that the Lutheran branch almost without exception embraced the unlimited view. "But that Luther, Melanchthon, Osiander, Brentius, Oecoiampadius, Zwinglius and Bucer held the doctrine of a general atonement...
Thus also, it was with their immediate successors, as the language of the Psalgrave Confession testifies.... 'Of the power and death of Christ, believe we,' say these German Christians, that the death of Christ (whilst he being not a bare man, but the Son of God, died,) is a full, all sufficient payment, not only for our sins but for the sins of the whole world. . . [James Richards, Lectures on Mental Philosophy and Theology (New York: M. W. Dodd, 1846) p. 304]

 

[Dewey Sturgell]

Old Regular

well you know that this subject is not intended for every, For my Brother from old times of over two thousand years ago was move my the spirit of God and wrote these statements Romans 8:28 AND WE KNOW THAT ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD TO THEM THAT LOVE GOD, TO THEM WHO ARE THE CALLED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE 8:29 FOR WHOM HE DID FOREKNOW HE ALSO DID PREDESTINATE TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON, THAT HE MIGHT ME THE FIRST BORN AMONG MANY BROTHERN. Then over in the book of Ephesians my brother Paul wrote in 1;4 ACCORDING AS HE HATH CHOSEN US IN HIM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD,THAT WE SHOULD BE HOLY AND WITHOUT BLAME BEFORE HIM IN LOVE; 1;5 HAVING PREDESTINATED US UNTO THE ADOPTION OF CHILDREN BY JESUS CHRIST TO HIMSELF,ACCORDING TO THE GOOD PLEASURE OF HIS WILL. Now if in any means by reading by nature and understanding the meanings of these words you still would know that predestination is beforehand ,something of the past of the present, So how could not believe these words for our brother Paul, So if you not believe in predestination exspond to me just these two passages.

 

[Brother Bob]

God’s omniscience and omnipresence
God knows the results of our decisions, not through absolute prediction but rather because He can already observe those results
In time and all that exist in time, it is all present with God at all time. He see at all time what is and what was and what will be when we are called to Heaven. God is outside of time. He can work in time when He wants but He sees all things and already saw you believe before you were born, matter of fact, before the foundation of the World. God is Sovereign and it does not take away for that for Him to make the creature subject to vanity. It was His choice to do so and we had nothing to do with it whatsoever. Again, because He knows the end from the begining and is outside of time. It is not great thing for Him to see me believe when He sees all at once for with Him, time does not matter. Before the earth was created there was not time, and when this world come to an end, time will cease again. Time was created for man and not God for He sees all. Because He sees does not mean he decrees.


I think it is interesting to see how Calvinists assume they have the market on the word "foreknowledge" as being that which expresses an intimate knowledge of someone God has chosen to conform to the image of Christ. Both Calvinists and non-Calvinists (for the most part) confirm this truth and accept this understanding of the word "foreknowledge."

Because God is not bound by time we all agree that we, as believers, are going to spend an eternity with God and his knowledge and love for us is infinite. However, all this is completely inrelevant to the issue as to how ones comes to faith because this passage doesn't address that point at all. It only tells us that we, whom God foreknows, have been predestined to be conformed to the image of His son. It says nothing about God predestining or even foreseeing our response of faith to his gospel invitation. It only tells us what believers are predestined to become, it says nothing about select individuals being predestined to believe.

So, as to foreknowledge, we both affirm God foreknows all believers, but the question is why does he foreknow us? Is it because he unconditionally elected us, regenerated us and irresistably drew us to faith in Him? Or, is it because when we were confronted by his gospel invitation we freely responded in faith? This passage doesn't answer that question. It only tells us that those who love and believe in God are foreknown and predestined to be conformed to Christ's image. Anything else is read into the text.

Have a good nite fellows, peace :sleeping_2: :thumbs:

 

[Dewey Sturgell]

Old Regular

I believe what you are impling,but just because time is not noted in these passages, it does affirm that God has predestined to himself those souls that he chose before the world was, also God chose those souls unto the calling and the justification of the redemption to the belief of the truth that lied in our Lord Jesus Christ, This does show us that God has degreed to save the soul of the ones that he predestinated to be one of his children and if you were not chosen then your not going to believe but looking into the whole thing if you were chosen then you are predestinated to believe in Christ, even though we didnt know that we are predestinated we believed in Christ, this doctrine is for the uplifting of the souls that believe in Christ to show us that God is truly SOVEREIN. MAY GRACE FILL YOUR HEART, AMEN.

 

[charles_creech78]

I believe what you are impling,but just because time is not noted in these passages, it does affirm that God has predestined to himself those souls that he chose before the world was, also God chose those souls unto the calling and the justification of the redemption to the belief of the truth that lied in our Lord Jesus Christ, This does show us that God has degreed to save the soul of the ones that he predestinated to be one of his children and if you were not chosen then your not going to believe but looking into the whole thing if you were chosen then you are predestinated to believe in Christ, even though we didnt know that we are predestinated we believed in Christ, this doctrine is for the uplifting of the souls that believe in Christ to show us that God is truly SOVEREIN. MAY GRACE FILL YOUR HEART, AMEN.

So you believe that them that have been predestinated by God are Only going to heaven and He knew who he predestinated. Ok I understand that but we can not use that as being the only way someone can be saved. For Christ died for us all even when we had sin. We do not know who is predestinated because that is up to God AND WE CANNOT TELL SOMEONE THAT THEY WILL NOT BE SAVED OR NEED TO BE PREDESTINATED to go to heaven because like I said only God knows. I thank he loves us all and if we come short of heaven then it is because of what we done. pe 3:9 The LORD is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but longsuffering to US-WARD, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, BUT ALL COME TO REPENTANCE. Mt 5:44 But I say unto you, LOVE your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Mt 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. lu 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise JOY shall be in heaven over ONE sinner that repenteth, more than over ninty and nine JUST persons, which need no repentance. Ro 2:11 FOR THERE IS NO RESPECT OF PERSONS WITH GOD. Ro 3:23 For all have SINNED, and come short of the glory of GOD.

 

[Dewey Sturgell]

So you believe that them that have been predestinated by God are Only going to heaven and He knew who he predestinated. Ok I understand that but we can not use that as being the only way someone can be saved. For Christ died for us all even when we had sin. We do not know who is predestinated because that is up to God AND WE CANNOT TELL SOMEONE THAT THEY WILL NOT BE SAVED OR NEED TO BE PREDESTINATED to go to heaven because like I said only God knows. I thank he loves us all and if we come short of heaven then it is because of what we done. pe 3:9 The LORD is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but longsuffering to US-WARD, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, BUT ALL COME TO REPENTANCE. Mt 5:44 But I say unto you, LOVE your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Mt 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. lu 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise JOY shall be in heaven over ONE sinner that repenteth, more than over ninty and nine JUST persons, which need no repentance. Ro 2:11 FOR THERE IS NO RESPECT OF PERSONS WITH GOD. Ro 3:23 For all have SINNED, and come short of the glory of GOD.

WELL MY ANSWER IN SHORT IS THAT THE WORD US!! IN THE BIBLE ONLY REFERS TO THE ELECT OR ANOTHER TERM CHOSEN, WHICH IS THE PREDESTINATED!!!!

 

[Brother Bob]

WELL MY ANSWER IN SHORT IS THAT THE WORD US!! IN THE BIBLE ONLY REFERS TO THE ELECT OR ANOTHER TERM CHOSEN, WHICH IS THE PREDESTINATED!!!!

Tell me, are your children on the list or not?
Do you believe as many Calvinist, that the road to hell will be paved with the bones of infants?

Who do you know who to preach to?

Because God "foreknew, does not mean he caused it to be that way. If He foreknew, I was going to believe, then He knew who to predestinate to be conformed to the image of His son, after I believed. He also knew, who to justify because He Knew I would believe, He also Knew who to glorify when He saw me believe. Predestination is no great thing if we Have a God who is Omnipresence. He has already seen your death and resurrection and mine. He sees all things at once, He sees the end from the beginning. So, the "elect" still depends on "who believes". God Bless,

BBob

 

[Dale-c]

Who do you know who to preach to?

We preach to all. It is God that gives the increase.

Tell me, are your children on the list or not?

Do you know for sure that your children have truly been saved?

predestinate to be conformed to the image of His son, after I believed. He also knew, who to justify because He Knew I would believe, He also Knew who to glorify when He saw me believe.

Wasn't that good of you!
So it was all based on your decision...good thing you chose or God would not have had as many people in heaven.

 

[Martin]

Tell me, are your children on the list or not?

==Nobody, be they Calvinist or Arminian, knows the answer to that unless their children get saved. Therefore your question is a strawman.

Do you believe as many Calvinist, that the road to hell will be paved with the bones of infants?

==I'm a Calvinist and I don't believe that, neither do most Calvinist I know and read. So I am not exactly sure what you are talking about.

Who do you know who to preach to?

==We preach the gospel to everyone.

Because God "foreknew, does not mean he caused it to be that way.

==So you believe that God's foreknowledge is passive? Well friend that does not fit Scripture (Is 46:8-11). The Bible says that Christ was foreknown by the Father (1Pet 1:20, Acts 2:23,etc). Is that passive? Certainly not! God foreknew those who are His and He predestined that they be like Christ (Rom 8:29). That is not passive, God brought it to pass in time (Rom 8:30). Again I point to the clear verses of Scripture that teach that God brought salvation to pass in those He elected (Eph 1:3-14, 2Thess 2:13, 2Tim 2:10, 1Cor 1:27-30, Col 3:12, Jn 6:37-39, etc). Believers are the chosen of God. There is nothing passive about that.

If He foreknew, I was going to believe, then He knew who to predestinate to be conformed to the image of His son, after I believed.

==Scripture never states that God predestined you based on His foreknowledge of you believing. It states that God foreknew "you", He choose you, and that was done before you were called, believed, and were justified (Rom 8:29-30). In fact the Lord Jesus taught that we only come to Christ because we were FIRST given to Him by the Father (Jn 6:37, 17:2-3). So, dear friend, you have it all backwards. God does not elect because you believe rather you believe because you are elect.

 

[charles_creech78]

WELL MY ANSWER IN SHORT IS THAT THE WORD US!! IN THE BIBLE ONLY REFERS TO THE ELECT OR ANOTHER TERM CHOSEN, WHICH IS THE PREDESTINATED!!!!

Do you know what self rightess means Brother. So you are saying he is saying that to the elect of God then why did he not just take all of his elect home . do you know what predestinate means. It means forordain. do you know what ordain means. Set apart to chosen you and ordain you. what does he ordain you for. (ordains you to be a Prophet) (Ordains to be a priest) (ordains you to be a prophet) He predestinated you to become these things. John the baptist was predestinate to preach Jesus Christ was coming and to prepare a people for the Lord. Moses was predestinated to lead Gods people out of egupt and to deliever them to the lord. Jesus Christ the Son of God was predestinated to Save Gods people from there sin. He forordain the elect to do his will and his will is that known should perish but ALL come to repentence. John the bapstist came preaching repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand . Jesus Christ came preaching repent for kingdom of God is at hand. And all the Elect say repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Amen.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

The hard part with this doctrine is that there is an overlap of the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man. Each of us has limited understanding and may see one view more clearly than the other view. The Bible clearly teaches both and it is best to let God be true and every man a liar.

Herein lies the rub for the preacher, if he over-emphasize the sovereignty of God, the people tend to get lazy/complacent/self-satisfied, and if he over-emphasize the responsibility of man, the people tend to get either self-righteous, despondent or lose faith. There have been useful men preaching in both camps, IE Wesley and Whitefield, but the best doctrine promotes both the sovereignty of God AND the responsibility of man.

Incidently, I agree not entirely with either John Wesley or John Calvin (the error might even be on my part) and when I get to heaven I am not going to ask either of them to leave.


BGTF

PS
Speaking of those two grand opponents, Wesley and Whitefield, here is Wesley's sermon for Whitefield's funeral. Considering their differences, the fact alone that Wesley even preached it is a great example for us.

http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_wesley/sermons/053.htm

 

[Dale-c]

It is good to point out the duty of man. All Calvinists that I know believe that man is responsible.
The thing is though that we are responsible but incapable of pleasing God with out His power.

There are those that preach God's sovereignty to the exclusion of Mans duty and they are usually called hyper calvinists.

 

[TCGreek]

Do you believe as many Calvinist, that the road to hell will be paved with the bones of infants?

BBob

Did you get that belief from a Calvinist on BB? Who or what is your source?

 

[Dewey Sturgell]

Do you know what self rightess means Brother. So you are saying he is saying that to the elect of God then why did he not just take all of his elect home . do you know what predestinate means. It means forordain. do you know what ordain means. Set apart to chosen you and ordain you. what does he ordain you for. (ordains you to be a Prophet) (Ordains to be a priest) (ordains you to be a prophet) He predestinated you to become these things. John the baptist was predestinate to preach Jesus Christ was coming and to prepare a people for the Lord. Moses was predestinated to lead Gods people out of egupt and to deliever them to the lord. Jesus Christ the Son of God was predestinated to Save Gods people from there sin. He forordain the elect to do his will and his will is that known should perish but ALL come to repentence. John the bapstist came preaching repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand . Jesus Christ came preaching repent for kingdom of God is at hand. And all the Elect say repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Amen.

Yes my friend I believe that Predestinstion is the predetermed of God chosen ,but to know why he set us here on the earth instead of just putting us into his heavenly home above the sky is not for me to say I dont think I read that in the bible why we are to be put under the vanities of this world, and to answer Brother Bob only God knows the souls of his, I never said that I knew the elect by every individual in this world, I would hope to think my children were chosen or predistnated, but only God knows thier eternal soul and where it lies at after this earthly death