Predestinate

[Dewey Sturgell]

old regular

You know I have debated with my pastor over this doctrine and he doesnt agree to use the termology that i use, but maybe he doesnt see it my way, its not something that we have ever fallen out of peace with, but as for you i thank God for you and your understsnding of this doctrine it really is my most favorite doctrine of the bible to be able to believe in the SOVEREIGN GRACE OF GOD and his unchangeable plan to be something of such a great and higher fate of being predistinated unto him, I have recieved alot a joy by writing to you my brother in Christ. may the grace of God be with you. amen

 

[Brother Bob]

I expect, my dear brother, that we shall end in an agreement to disagree on this subject

I expect you are right for we have ended up in the C/A debate of which has been hashed over and over.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

 

[npetreley]

I think that point needs emphasising. I often get the impression (maybe a false one, I don't know) that there is a widespread misunderstanding of the Doctrines of Grace/Reformed Doctrine/Calvinism that says that if God predestinates those who are to be saved, then there must be people who end up in hell complaining, "Well, I wanted to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved, but I couldn't, because God didn't predestinate me." That just is not the case, and I am confident that no one on this Board believes that (do they?)

I believe I've seen that argument on this board a number of times.

I've also seen people misrepresent double-predestination as meaning that everyone is in some "neutral" state by default. From that point, God actively saves some and actively damns others.

 

[Dale-c]

I've also seen people misrepresent double-predestination as meaning that everyone is in some "neutral" state by default. From that point, God actively saves some and actively damns others.

Yes. Of course we know the real state is all men on their own choose themselves over God.
All men would then go to hell if it were not for God's intervening grace!

 

[Martin]

There aren't any preconditions on this familiar verse.

==I am not sure how that applies to what I stated or to Romans 8:29-30.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

==I am not sure how that verse affects election/predestination. Those who are elect are those who will believe and be saved (Jn 6:37-44). Those who are not elect will not believe.

 

[Dewey Sturgell]

old regular

one thing that I believe is that the bible is not intended for the unbeliever and never could be ,so he that believes unto salvation through the working of Gods plan is the only ones that benifits from his devine workmanship; for if all the people in the world woke up one day and just decided that they believed in Christ then what reason would there be of heaven and hell? for God chose things in himself the things that pleased him some unto his son and then there is the devils children who God did not chose

 

[TCGreek]

==I am not sure how that verse affects election/predestination. Those who are elect are those who will believe and be saved (Jn 6:37-44). Those who are not elect will not believe.

1. The "whosoever" is issued to all but only the elect responds.

2. Why some respond and others do not? Is it because those who respond are smarter or more intelligent? Why?

3. Martin, I believe you have answered those questions from John 6:37-44.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I expect you are right for we have ended up in the C/A debate of which has been hashed over and over.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Thank you for the Scripture my brother, none of which, of course, contradict historic, biblical, "calvinsim" as it is called. :thumbs:

 

[Dewey Sturgell]

old regular

i was really thinking that I may be the only one of so many baptist that believe like you do, I do realize that the scriptures are a better introduction to this big debate of God elect. but like my pastor told me time and time again that I express my views to boldly, but Im one who wants to cut through the chase, I propable should take time and press forward to reveal my understanding through the scriptures. but God is so great to have imputed us with such love that I just want to express it my way, knowing that god did infact choose us to please himself. for me to imply that God knows a souls destination from thier mothers womb is to give God total credit of the choosen vessels and the unchoosen vessel, so I dont feel wrong in saying that a person is born from thier mothers womb for heaven or hell. may the Grace of our Lord be with you.amen.:godisgood:

 

[Brother Bob]

Thank you for the Scripture my brother, none of which, of course, contradict historic, biblical, "calvinsim" as it is called. :thumbs:__________________

Thank you, I was sure the way you would read it, that it would fit with Calvinism, thats ok I been through all this before. Some of my best friends are Calvinist, but I don't think they can help themselves............

Peace,

BBob

 

[Brother Bob]

i was really thinking that I may be the only one of so many baptist that believe like you do, I do realize that the scriptures are a better introduction to this big debate of God elect. but like my pastor told me time and time again that I express my views to boldly, but Im one who wants to cut through the chase, I propable should take time and press forward to reveal my understanding through the scriptures. but God is so great to have imputed us with such love that I just want to express it my way, knowing that god did infact choose us to please himself. for me to imply that God knows a souls destination from thier mothers womb is to give God total credit of the choosen vessels and the unchoosen vessel, so I dont feel wrong in saying that a person is born from thier mothers womb for heaven or hell. may the Grace of our Lord be with you.amen.:godisgood:

John 3:16, you will never overcome it regardless how hard you try. You will change meaning of words, whatever, but you shall not ever overcome.

Romans 1:
16: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17: For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19: Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20: For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22: Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Ti 2:
11: For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12: Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13: Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15: These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

 

[Dale-c]

2. Why some respond and others do not? Is it because those who respond are smarter or more intelligent? Why?

THis is the key to the whole thing.
THis is what no one has ever really answered from the free will position.
And if they try you have infinite whys? until you finally get back to God who made them.

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
2. Why some respond and others do not? Is it because those who respond are smarter or more intelligent? Why?

Dale-c:

THis is the key to the whole thing.
THis is what no one has ever really answered from the free will position.
And if they try you have infinite whys? until you finally get back to God who made them.
__________________

Then what happened in your case Dale????

 

[Dale-c]

Then what happened in your case Dale????

God softened my heart and opened my eyes.
He regenerated me to make me want to believe.
I believe you would have to admit that He did the same to you.
He has chosen to pass over some and let them go their own way.

Thank God He did not allow me to continue in my path to destruction!

 

[TomMann]

If Hell has to enlarge its borders and everything was already predestinated. Then how come hell was not big enough to start with?

If Hell has to enlarge its borders and everything was already foreknown.... then how come Hell was not big enough to start with???????

 

[Dale-c]

If Hell has to enlarge its borders and everything was already foreknown.... then how come Hell was not big enough to start with???????

This is a silly argument like saying "if everyone is predestined, why do they still have to believe?"

Seriously, I don't know why the borders must be enlarged. You will have to ask God about that. If that is all you can come up with that is pretty sad.

Also, do you realize what you are saying?
You are implying that GOd built it one size but far less people are getting saved that He had hoped.
That is truly sad!

 

[Brother Bob]

This is a silly argument like saying "if everyone is predestined, why do they still have to believe?"

Seriously, I don't know why the borders must be enlarged. You will have to ask God about that. If that is all you can come up with that is pretty sad.

Also, do you realize what you are saying?
You are implying that GOd built it one size but far less people are getting saved that He had hoped.
That is truly sad!__________________

May be silly to you, but you can't answer it can you? May be sad, but that is what scripture says.

 

[Martin]

Well, if predestination is true, then why is hell enlarging her borders. Why was it not large enough to start with?

=="IF" predestination is true? That's like saying "IF" the resurrection is true. Of course it is true. The Bible speaks of election, predestination, choosing, etc, on more than a few occasions. How anyone could actually say "if predestination is true" is beyond me. As for hell "enlarging her borders", what Scripture(s) are you using for that statement?

 

[Martin]

You are implying that GOd built it one size but far less people are getting saved that He had hoped.
That is truly sad!

==The implications of denying election and the Sovereignty of God are not only sad but doctrinally dangerous. In his book "The Sovereign Grace of God" James White has an entire chapter on these dangers titled "Denial of the Doctrines of Grace Leads to Grave Error". The Arminian position misrepresents God. Their position views God as a God who makes mistakes, who fails to do His will, who is dependent upon man, and who can have His purposes undone by mortal man. That is not the God of Scripture (see Is. chpts 40-45). The God of the Bible makes no mistakes, does His will, is not dependent upon man for anything, and cannot have His will undone by man. I am not saying that Arminians, and those who lean in that direction, willfully misrepresent God. I don't think they willfully do that. However their views "naturally" go in that direction.

 

[Brother Bob]

=="IF" predestination is true? That's like saying "IF" the resurrection is true. Of course it is true. The Bible speaks of election, predestination, choosing, etc, on more than a few occasions. How anyone could actually say "if predestination is true" is beyond me. As for hell "enlarging her borders", what Scripture(s) are you using for that statement?
__________________

We do not believe everyone is predestinated to heaven or hell. We do believe in predestination, but not in the sense you speak of.

Isa 5:14Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

I don't really care what James White wrote. I use the scripture. Why is hell enlarging herself, if all is already predestinated. Seems He would of known what size to build it.

While you are at it, you will need to change some words in the following scripture to fit your theology.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Rom 1:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.