Predestinated = OSAS

[steaver]

Bob...

quote:
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Steaver said
WE(the saved) can BE FAITHLESS...God says so... 2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. .. IF WE DENY HIM HE WILL ALSO DENY US

Praise God that those who have become one with Christ will never be denied their gift of salvation...He cannot deny Himself(WE are one with Christ).

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So "again" of the SAVED you say --
WE CAN NOT DENY Him and HE CAN NOT deny us" - since WE are only the SAVED and WE CAN never do such a thing. No need to solemnly charge US with such impossible things. It would like charging us NOT to become elephants at 6 pm on Thursdays. It is IMPOSSIBLE! Such a charge is pointless!"


The point remains.

What are you trying to pull Bob? You misquote me and then post a rebutal according to your reworking of my words? That is decietful and lying. If you are going to quote me then do so in it's full and proper context. This is turning into lies and slander from your part. Do you feel so cornered that you feel you must begin a campaign of smoke and mirrors to discredit me?

Here are my true words everybody...

Steaver...

WE(the saved) can DENY JESUS and JESUS can DENY US...God says so... 2Ti 2:12 ...if we deny him, he also will deny us:

WE(the saved) can BE FAITHLESS...God says so... 2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. Praise God that those who have become one with Christ will never be denied their gift of salvation...He cannot deny Himself(WE are one with Christ).

Compare my true words with Bob's rework...

Bob...

Steaver said
WE(the saved) can BE FAITHLESS ...God says so... 2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. .. IF WE DENY HIM HE WILL ALSO DENY US

Praise God that those who have become one with Christ will never be denied their gift of salvation... He cannot deny Himself(WE are one with Christ).

1) You made God's word look like my words in the first paragraph and reworked them both switching lines at will.

2) In the second paragraph you made bold carefully selected words and then once having them taken out of context through boldness you go on to tear down a self built straw man so you can appear to have ripped apart my argument.

Shame on you! I did not expect such sinful tacktics from someone who I have respectfully disagreed with and thought worthy of engagement of deliberations.

Maybe you have always done this and I just now have noticed, I don't know, but it is very un-Christlike indeed.

My "point remains" as it is made "in context". If you want to deal with my points in the context I gave them in , then we can move on. You cannot rework my words and then proceed to argue against your re-wording. That is slanderous. I did not expect this from you!

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Bob...

Notice that the "IF WE DENY HIM" part is the part Steaver refuses to quote -

Another lie?

Steaver...

WE(the saved) can DENY JESUS and JESUS can DENY US...God says so... 2Ti 2:12 ...if we deny him, he also will deny us:

I did quote God's Word on this.(posted April 14, 12:52AM) A few post back.

What in the world are you trying to do?

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

Steaver - if I read you correctly you are objecting to scripture itself!!!

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />2 Tim 2
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.

Notice that the "IF WE DENY HIM" part is the part Steaver refuses to quote - but then asserts that WE THE SAVED -- if we are truly truly really really "the saved" WILL NOT deny Him and it is pointless to suppose that we will!

Just as the argument above shows!! </font>[/QUOTE]You object that the very part of God's word that you intended to SUPRESS got restored in the quote for reference!!

How "instructive"!!

Notice that this point - just made - HIGHLIGHTS that flaw in your own argument!!

Instead of responding to the point - you simply further expose your flaw in that regard!!

What kind of strategy is that??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
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Bob...

Steaver said
...God says so... 2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. .. IF WE DENY HIM HE WILL ALSO DENY US

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1) You made God's word look like my words

YOU said "God says so" and proceded to quote 2Tim 2 - selectively supressing part of the text of "what GOD says".

I simply took the "GOD says so" as license to INCLUDE what "GOD SAYS" in 2Tim 2:13 - at which point "you object".

Now since it has been pointed out that you consider what God says to be IMPOSSIBLE for the truly saved (in direct conflict with your earlier statements that it was possible) you are still up to bat - to actually "respond" to your own self-conflicted argument!

How "instructive".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Steaver said - this applies TO THE SAVED

2Tim 2:13 "IF WE DENY HIM HE WILL DENY US"

Then self-conflictedly Steaver employs true double-speak saying --

Steaver said
Praise God that those who have become one with Christ will never be denied their gift of salvation... He cannot deny Himself(WE are one with Christ).

Still waiting for you to clean up your own mess Steaver.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Steaver said
WE(the saved) can DENY JESUS and JESUS can DENY US...God says so... 2Ti 2:12 ...if we deny him, HE also WILL DENY us:

WE(the saved) can BE FAITHLESS...God says so... 2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Praise God that those who have become one with Christ will NEVER BE DENIED their gift of salvation...He cannot deny Himself(WE are one with Christ).

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3696/10.html#000137

So Steaver says CAN BE denied - God's Word says "WILL DENY".

Steaver says "WILL NEVER BE denied" Gods Word said "WILL Be Denied"

Steaver says we should not NOTICE or ASK about his own self-conflicted argument.

Bob notes "You claim that the truly saved CAN NOT actually deny Crhist nor that Christ ever WILL deny those who were SAVED and yet go on to deny Him"

To which Steaver -- objects at having his argument's flaw exposed.

Steaver said

There you go, the truth

I say - "there you go - your own conflicted statement in living color!"

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Claudia_T]

Steve,

I feel that it is wrong to go around saying I am "saved". When Peter claimed he would not deny Christ, that was when he was placing confidence in himself and he fell and denied Jesus.

"I know in whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which Ive committed to Him against that day" but I will not go around claiming I am among the "predestined to be saved" or "predestined to be lost" group.


Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

Steve,

Bob doesnt strike me as the dishonest type, are you sure that maybe you arent jut both misuderstanding each other? I mean, I dont know him at all but just from reading some of the stuff he has posted on here in the past, he seems like an upstanding kind of a guy.

....lots of times it is really easy to do that when you cant really talk face to face.

Think about that you had thought that I was trying to avoid answering your question all this time when in reality I wasnt even aware that you had asked me anything... so its very easy to misunderstand and then think the worst of somebody when the reality of it might be something completely different.


Claudia

 

[steaver]

Bob...

So Steaver says CAN BE denied - God's Word says "WILL DENY".

Do you understand what the word "if" means Bob?

Look carefully at the Word of God and at my words about the Word of God....

Steaver said
WE(the saved) can DENY JESUS and JESUS can DENY US...God says so... 2Ti 2:12 ... if we deny him, HE also WILL DENY us:

"If" means it can happen, not it will happen. Jesus can(and will) deny us IF we deny Him. It is a conditional statement. If you do this then He will do this. You are simply playing word games because your back is against the wall. Try staying in CONTEXT!

Bob...

Steaver says "WILL NEVER BE denied" Gods Word said "WILL Be Denied"

Study to show thyself approved unto God, rightly dividing the word of truth. The passage in question "rightly divided" expresses two specificly different denials.

1) Speaking about suffering to reign with Christ...
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:. If we deny Jesus rather than suffer persecution for His sake, then expect Jesus to deny us a place of authority in His reign to come. Peter denied Jesus thrice rather than suffer persecution with Him. Peter knew Jesus was the Son of God and believed(salvation). Choosing an outward denial verses suffering had nothing to do with salvation. Peter's heart remained with Christ.

2) Speaking about salvation...
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. Those in Christ are one with Christ, a new creation. Christ cannot deny Himself. Our many moments of faithlessness does not change our standing as a child of God(salvation).

Steaver says we should not NOTICE or ASK about his own self-conflicted argument.

Yet another lie. Steaver says you should not misquote and then proceed to tear down your own rework of another's words.

There is no conflict in my posts. You simply have not rightly divided the word of truth. Therefore it appears to you that I am conflicted. The entire Bible appears conflicted to those who do not study and rightly divide the word of truth.

The fact remains that the "we" and "us" in the predestinated passages as well as the passages you have posted out of Timothy are speaking ONLY of the SAVED!

Bob notes "You claim that the truly saved CAN NOT actually deny Crhist nor that Christ ever WILL deny those who were SAVED and yet go on to deny Him"

There is the problem. You have not correctly divided the word of truth. You think that the denying in verse 12 is loss of salvation. This cannot be for countless reasons spoken of throughout the scriptures, plus it just simply doesn't say "deny us our salvation". You incorrectly assume. If you understood regeneration, you would conclude that it speaks of suffering for Christ and reigning with Christ.

I have no "mess" to clean up! You simply have no understanding of the passage. You can, if you repent and ask God to teach you the Word. It is deeper than just surface reading.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

I feel that it is wrong to go around saying I am "saved". When Peter claimed he would not deny Christ, that was when he was placing confidence in himself and he fell and denied Jesus.

"I know in whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which Ive committed to Him against that day" but I will not go around claiming I am among the "predestined to be saved" or "predestined to be lost" group.


Claudia

Claudia, " I know in whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which Ive committed to Him against that day "

That is saying you are saved

I appreceate you honesty about the predestinated passages. It saddens me that you are not sure if you are saved. The scriptures are full of passages to give you assurrance of your salvation. I pray God gives you the answers.

If you are not sure if you are saved Claudia, then I don't think you should be out there telling others that they can lose their salvation. You don't even know if you are saved and you try to teach others about salvation This is not good!

The bible teaches about the saved and the lost. Why would you be afraid to say you are one of the saved if you are? Are you not sure?

God Bless!

 

[Claudia_T]

Steve,

I didnt quite say that I wasnt sure I was "saved".

At every advance step in Christian experience our repentance will deepen. It is to those whom the Lord has forgiven, to those whom He acknowledges as His people, that He says, "Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall loathe yourselves in your own sight." Eze. 36:31. Again He says, "I will establish My covenant with thee, and thou shalt know that I am the Lord; that thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord God." Eze. 16:62, 63. Then our lips will not be opened in self-glorification. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone. We shall make the apostle's confession our own. "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing." Rom. 7:18. "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Gal. 6:14.

Peter's fall was not instantaneous, but gradual. Self-confidence led him to the belief that he was saved, and step after step was taken in the downward path, until he could deny his Master. Never can we safely put confidence in self or feel, this side of heaven, that we are secure against temptation. Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say or to feel that they are saved. This is misleading. Every one should be taught to cherish hope and faith; but even when we give ourselves to Christ and know that He accepts us, we are not beyond the reach of temptation. God's word declares, "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried." Dan. 12:10. Only he who endures the trial will receive the crown of life. (James 1:12.)

Those who accept Christ, and in their first confidence say, I am saved, are in danger of trusting to themselves. They lose sight of their own weakness and their constant need of divine strength. They are unprepared for Satan's devices, and under temptation many, like Peter, fall into the very depths of sin. We are admonished, "Let him that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall." 1 Cor. 10:12. Our only safety is in constant distrust of self, and dependence on Christ.

 

[steaver]

Think about that you had thought that I was trying to avoid answering your question all this time when in reality I wasnt even aware that you had asked me anything... so its very easy to misunderstand and then think the worst of somebody when the reality of it might be something completely different.


Claudia

Very true Claudia, but I showed Bob my true post and his twisting of it and he still believes it ok to do as he did.

God Bless!

 

[Claudia_T]

Steve,


Ive spent the last few weeks thinking I was going to die.

I have been doing a very large amount of self-inspection, asking God to reveal to me all my sins and weakness and in heart doing my best to put them away....

....and absolutely positively and only relying upon the merits of my crucified and risen Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Claiming the promises of God in regards to Him accepting me because of the sacrifice of Jesus for my sins.

So you have a misinderstanding about me. I know its hard to communicate on this message board but I realize as never before my absolute dependence upon Christ and have faith He has forgiven all my sins and that God has thrown my sins into the depths of the sea.

Yet at the same time I will not lose sight of my own weaknesses and my folly at trusting myself. I know any minute I can let go of Jesus Christ and fall into temptation and possibly turn away from Christ, maybe not even realizing I did that.

You see Steve, I dont distrust God, I distrust myself, which are two completely different things.


Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

Steve,

In my other posts I shouldve explained myself better to you, its no wonder you thought I was saying I didnt think I was saved.

sorry about that, my mistake..


Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

I dont understand how come sometimes when I am getting ready to post a message, those smiley faces icons to choose from are there, and the thing to make sentences bold or italics, etc... and then other times they arent there...


I was going to put the little guy waving at Steve, but it wasnt there...

 

[Claudia_T]

ohhhh now I see, the difference is when you do the "Quick Reply" or the "Post Reply"

Hi Steve

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
Steve,


Ive spent the last few weeks thinking I was going to die.

I have been doing a very large amount of self-inspection, asking God to reveal to me all my sins and weakness and in heart doing my best to put them away....

....and absolutely positively and only relying upon the merits of my crucified and risen Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Claiming the promises of God in regards to Him accepting me because of the sacrifice of Jesus for my sins.

So you have a misinderstanding about me. I know its hard to communicate on this message board but I realize as never before my absolute dependence upon Christ and have faith He has forgiven all my sins and that God has thrown my sins into the depths of the sea.

Yet at the same time I will not lose sight of my own weaknesses and my folly at trusting myself. I know any minute I can let go of Jesus Christ and fall into temptation and possibly turn away from Christ, maybe not even realizing I did that.

You see Steve, I dont distrust God, I distrust myself, which are two completely different things.


Claudia

Claudia,

There are a few points I would like to address..i just do not know how to start.

Lets go this way..

When does a person lose their salvation?


In Christ...James

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
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Steaver said
WE(the saved) can DENY JESUS and JESUS can DENY US...God says so... 2Ti 2:12 ... if we deny him, HE also WILL DENY us:

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Steaver said
"If" means it can happen, not it will happen. Jesus can(and will) deny us IF we deny Him. It is a conditional statement. If you do this then He will do this.

Why not stop dancing around this. IF the statement above WERE your consistent position then we would not be having this conversation to start with.

The problem is your self-conflicted stance that claims that such an "IF" is impossible!! You reduce the warning of God down to "don't turn into an elephant at 6pm on Thursdays".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Why not stop dancing around this. IF the statement above WERE your consistent position then we would not be having this conversation to start with.

The problem is your self-conflicted stance that claims that such an "IF" is impossible!! You reduce the warning of God down to "don't turn into an elephant at 6pm on Thursdays".

In Christ,

Bob

Bob, you just ain't gonna understand it! Sorry if my explainations are to confusing. I don't know any other way to show you the scripture rightly divided. It hasn't seemed to bother anyone else!

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Claudia, I must go right now but I will pray for your health problems and I will respond to your post later. Take care!

God Bless!