I agree, BF!
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Predestination is a Beautiful Doctrine.
- Thread starter Alan Dale Gross
- Start date
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Oh really
Yea, we agree on several things, BF, it's a shame that this predestination thing is taking the spot light from the things we have in common.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
What makes you say this?
That is a new one on me, I think.
What makes you think there are different kinds of Grace?
What is 'the Grace of God' that you say exists in us 'from the day of our birth'?
That is a new one on me, I think.
We Receive the Love of God Shed Abroad in our hearts and the Faith, by which we are Enabled by His Holy Spirit to be Blessed with so that in Faith and the Love of God we can Please Him.
All Grace that is Bestowed upon it's Recipients is by an EXECUTIVE DECISION of God Almighty.
What makes you think there are different kinds of Grace?
[What does it mean "Elect ACCORDING to the foreknowledge of God the Father?"]
God the Father considered all mankind as fallen in Adam. The fall into sin and death did not surprise Him.
He in love wisdom and mercy elected to save a multitude of fallen sinners, and Give them to the Son.
This is known as the Covenant of Redemption. Jn.6:37-44.
It is also spoken of in Heb.2:3 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Election is unconditional, as fallen man has nothing that commends itself to God. man does not seek God, So the good shepherd seeks and saves His sheep as per ezk34,lk19, and John 10
Did you read and understand biblical foreknowledge, link?
I don't need to read a link to understand God's foreknowledge, I've already explained it to you.
If you Reformed folks want to deny unconditional election is based on God's sovereignty and claim foreknowledge, then I suggest you begin rewriting TULIP. You've got some serious problems.
Sorry Charlie, You do not understand it correctly, not even close.
Read the link or remain in ignorance.
No, I understand it, but you can't have it both ways.
God's election is according to foreknowledge or it's according to sovereignty.
You do not understand the word.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
@Charlie24 you have to remember they are using a different dictionary, a special calvinist one that has special definitions that fit they special understanding of the word of God.
Quite the contrary: it appears completely arbitrary.
May be it wasn't God's purpose to "predestine" any to wrath, for "Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Lord GOD. Wouldn’t I prefer that he turn from his ways and live?" Ezekiel 18:23.
When you use the word "predestine", you are inferring causation, to make God the cause of sin, which is a blasphemy on God (James 1:13). This is why it is written that election is according to foreknowledge, just because God doesn't cause any man to sin.
Although God does permit sinners to sin, and foresees that they will sin, God only uses sinners for his own purposes, which is quite different from the idea of predestination, which entails active causation on God's part.
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Acts 17:28 "For in [God] we live and move and have our being."
Acts 17:25 "God gives all life and breath to the all."
Eph 4:6 "One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."
Rom 1:19 "......since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them."
This hardly ties in with the idea that God refused to reveal himself to some men. That is a new idea on me.
In the gospel is imparted a superior measure of grace, to be sure. Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age...."
It was God's will that his grace be revealed to all men without exception, including the gospel. You are looking at grace the wrong way if you imagine that it is forcefed to a man. Grace can be resisted and opposed, as the bible recounts in numerous places.
John testified concerning Him. He cried out, saying, “This is He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because He was before me.’ ” 16 From His fullness we have all received grace upon grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.…"
In Jn 1:16, the Greek phrase is "grace for grace," i.e. so that "ever and anon fresh grace appears in place of that already received, leading to a super-abundance of grace." [Meyer]
So the idea that grace is limited to the gospel alone is wrong. Grace also came in the form of the law and in the prior covenants, as recorded in the Old Testament.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Thats your opinion which means nothing to me, no disrespect
It was according to Rom 9
I understand that Peter said "elect according to the foreknowledge of God."
I understand that Reformed Theology is according to God's sovereign will, not His foreknowledge.
When you read Rom. 8:29 you're reading a conditional election according to His foreknowledge.
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
He did foreknow who would believe and He predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son.
They were predestined to His redemption plan before the foundation of the world for them to be conformed.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Thats false
Thats works, and merit, God doesnt elect based upon them things Rom 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
Believing is doing good, and is good within you, all contrary to Grace election
Let's let the people decide for themselves who speaks the truth.
It's not rocket science, it's really very simple.
Which doctrine agrees with "whosoever will let him come.."
"For whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
"Come now let us reason together saith the Lord."
"God has commanded all men everywhere to repent."
What? Do I need to go any further?
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Predestination is a False Doctrine.
Calvinism's false doctrine is that Ephesians 1:4 teaches individuals (foreseen before they were created) were individually chosen for salvation before creation. This is precluded by 1 Peter 2:9-10 which says we once were not a people chosen for his own possession and once had not received mercy. Therefore the election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate, when God chose the Word to be His Lamb of God, His Redeemer, He chose corporately those who might be redeemed. This also makes sense since we did not exist as individuals.
The foreseen individuals supposedly did not believe or their belief was disregarded by God. If that was so, and it happens to be a complete fiction, then they would be condemned for unbelief. John 3:18.
The list of verses and scriptural teachings that must be nullified to accept the fiction of Calvinism is long indeed.
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There are those today who are misusing this very truth in order to discredit and deny the absolute sovereignty of God in the salvation of sinners. just as higher critics are repudiating the divine inspiration of the Scriptures; evolutionists, the work of God in creation; so some pseudo Bible teachers are perverting His foreknowledge in order to set aside His unconditional election unto eternal life.
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