George Antonios
Well-Known Member
And etymologically, "handkerchief" is "hand" "cover" "head", but I'm pretty sure you don't go around rubbing your hair with one.
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Predestination is that of a saved man unto a resurrection body in Christ's image
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George Antonios
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2Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade MEN; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
2Co 5:12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
2Co 5:13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.
2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Paul is logically connecting v.6 from v.5 - this is important. In v.5, we are redeemed from under the law => so that we might receive the adoption (being made sons). And this connects to v.6 - and because we are made sons (received adoption) => God has sent forth the Spirit of adoption => whereby we cry Abba, Father.
You've made it into 2 unrelated thoughts. According to you, Paul refers to a redeeming from the law to a future event that we have to wait for. And then immediately uses a "And because..." clause to connect to a thought several verses earlier in the previous chapter with no obvious linkage? That there is your over-reach.
You've made the claim - isn't the burden on you to apply it consistently then? Note, my argument to absurdity itself is not absurd - it's a logical argument to show that your principles of interpretation don't hold in consistency.
You read Gal 4:5 as something that is yet to happen in the future just because of the clause "might receive" ? Is that how you read Gal 3:14 too? If not, why the exception?
Again, it's the logical thought and not individual words in isolation...Gal 4:6 is effectively a cause and effect chain. Going per your interpretation, why does receiving the Spirit of future-redemption-of-my-body make me cry out Abba, Father now? But as per the common interpretation, receiving the Spirit of making-present-sons does logically connect with such sons crying out Abba, Father. When an interpretation simply fails on so many levels, wouldn't you want to at least reconsider?
this wasn't the point i was trying to make but even so, you're simply reinforcing my point. A kerchief is a head covering / bandanna and when one uses such a kerchief in the hand instead of over the head, it's called a handkerchief. In summary, the etymology links the individual words consistently.
yhiothesia (adoption) = yhios (sons) + tithēmi (make)
How do you suddenly make Adoption = redemption of the body when "redemption of the body" has nothing to do with either "sons" or "make"?
George, did Paul write to all humans or to all Christians?
What we know for certain is that Christ died for all who would believe.
If, as you are claiming, that Christ died for all humanity, then all humanity has been redeemed and their sins are removed as far as the east is from the west.
Let us look at all of 2 Corinthians 5 and see how Paul shows us that the all, you highlight, must refer to all who believe. I will highlight the words us and we through the entire chapter.
For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade others. But what we are is known to God, and I hope it is known also to your conscience. We are not commending ourselves to you again but giving you cause to boast about us, so that you may be able to answer those who boast about outward appearance and not about what is in the heart. For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
The reader can observe and understand.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Haven't we?
This tells me that the Spirit is the proof of that very real adoption that God has enacted:
" For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father." (Romans 8:15 )
In the same sense that believers have received the Spirit of promise ( Ephesians 1:13 ) and the "earnest" ( downpayment ) of our inheritance ( Ephesians 1:14 ), we have received the "earnest" of our adoption.
What's more is, I see Scripture proving that we as believers are already the sons ( and daughters ) of God...
Not "will be":
" For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." ( Galatians 3:26 ).
Therefore, the adoption has already taken place, spiritually, has it not?
Now all that we as believers are waiting for, is our physical adoption... when our earthly bodies are glorified ( Romans 8:23 ).
George,
Do you see that there's more to the adoption than just Romans 8:23, the redemption of our bodies?
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Haven't we?
This tells me that the Spirit is the proof of that very real adoption that God has enacted:
" For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father." (Romans 8:15 )
In the same sense that believers have received the Spirit of promise ( Ephesians 1:13 ) and the "earnest" ( downpayment ) of our inheritance ( Ephesians 1:14 ), we have received the "earnest" of our adoption.
What's more is, I see Scripture proving that we as believers are already the sons ( and daughters ) of God...
Not "will be":
" For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." ( Galatians 3:26 ).
Therefore, the adoption has already taken place, spiritually, has it not?
Now all that we as believers are waiting for, is our physical adoption... when our earthly bodies are glorified ( Romans 8:23 ).
George,
Do you see that there's more to the adoption than just Romans 8:23, the redemption of our bodies?
You have received the Spirit of adoption, which isn't the earnest of adoption but the earnest of the adoption to wit, the redemption of the body.
eph 1:14 earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the acquired (purchased) possession,
Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought (Purchased) at a price; therefore glorify God in your body [fn] and in your spirit, which are God’s. 1 Cor 6:19,20 NKJV for fn
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Cor 15:53 What is going to bring that about? and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you. Rom 8:11 YLT
The adoption to wit? ----- The groaning within us will be no more. --- BTW What is, "groan within ourselves," implication of/to?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
That we are weary of our sinful flesh, my friend, and that we desire to be clothed with our glorified, perfect bodies.
Adoption is in the context of "inheritance, not sonship. A sinner is the son of God the minute he is born of the Spirit but in this body he cannot receive his inheritance because it is in heaven and it is eternal and it is a joint inheritance that all sons of God receives at the same time. This body we live in now is not fitted for that realm and flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, we are not surprised to see words like "expectation" and "hope" connected to this doctrine. Take a look;
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
1 Pet 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
One must understand the absolute precision of the words of God and accept what is said if he will understand them. And..... one cannot expect to understand words if you have one hundred different translations of them.These boards prove the lie that new and different translations makes understanding easier. If so, why aren't we all in agreement?
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
1 Pet 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
One must understand the absolute precision of the words of God and accept what is said if he will understand them. And..... one cannot expect to understand words if you have one hundred different translations of them.These boards prove the lie that new and different translations makes understanding easier. If so, why aren't we all in agreement?
Let's agree on what it is we do believe...would you agree with the following beliefs or would you reject them as ungodly heresies?
1. In the fallen state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace.
2. God wills that they, who believe and persevere in faith, shall be saved, but that those, who are unbelieving and impenitent, shall remain under condemnation.
Is it your belief that if one does not buy into calvinism as a whole, that they haven't believed the Gospel? I am in agreement with you that this hurried 4-step ask Jesus into your heart and declaring they're saved is no Gospel - but that isn't Arminianism either.
This is important for you to comprehend - may come as brand new data to you - but there are God-loving Christians who see the errors in Calvinism as profaning the Holy Name of God. And until calvinism is either able to explain it consistently from Scriptures or recant those erroneous beliefs, not all will be able to unite over the other truths that calvinism does present.
Your error is in either being lazy or in being vainly blind to learning these other possibilities while instead being quick to call someone lost when they needn't necessarily be. What you consider debate for entertainment actually could serve to lead some to humility when they learn new things they hadn't known before. In any case, the more confident you are in the truth, the more loving, tolerant and accommodating you'd be while simultaneously discerning when exactly to call anathema on anyone.
It's not nobody knows anything for sure - it's we each think we know the truth for sure and we both can't be right - which is why we engage in discussing these to inform ourselves.
Since you are so confident you aren't grieving or blaspheming the Holy Spirit in your calvinism, explain if it's possible for God to simply desire, and not necessarily act, on His predestined elect not being saved at any point in time after creating them? Could God even express such a desire of changing His mind over what He'd Himself sovereignly foreordained - wouldn't that be less Glorious of His perfect ways, even amounting to profaning His Holy Nature?
Setting the translations debate aside (though it may carry some merit), the reason is each who propose this sentiment are so confident of their own being absolutely precise in their own understanding of the words of God - when others feel they're actually not.
Is this being precise? Adoption is not in the context of sonship?? Adoption is defined as the act/result of "making/assigning someone as your own son/child" - if we cannot agree on this basic working definition, what precision do you expect elsewhere? I'm not against any of your other references about the distinctly different inheritance we wait and hope for - those are true - but why and how is adoption not defined in the context of sonship when your very translations have linked the context with sonship for you?
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Why did the translation choose to add the words "of sons" and "of children" instead of simply translating the original word as "adoption" if not for the basic reason that it IS in the context of sonship?
Limited Atonement cannot be reduced to such simplicity. I do believe Atonement on Judgement Day is Limited but I also simultaneously believe that the Gospel offer of salvation is sincerely to each and every single person, elect or non-elect.
A simple foreshadowed parallel is that of the salvation of Israel from Egypt to the Promised Land - they were all saved from Egypt (Jud 1:5), they were all baptized and shared in the Holy Communion (1Cor 10:1-4) but not all of them entered the Promised Land - no, many were overthrown and destroyed in the wilderness by God because of their unbelief.
This is my question then - was the Passover lamb's blood shed for ALL the Israelites or only for the elect among them who would be perfectly preserved unto the Promised Kingdom? There is great wisdom in God determining distinct religious festivals for the Passover as well as separately for the Day of Atonement where it is the Lamb's blood that's shed but for different purposes - The Passover is to offer salvation to all providing a path of reconciliation but the Day of Atonement is what's effective in determining salvation unto only those who have continued in faith without falling away in unbelief.
It's wonderful that Christ on the cross has accomplished both ends simultaneously, both to be the Passover for ALL men and to be the Atonement for the believers alone. To discuss further on these, you'd have to start a new thread lest we detract from the topic on hand - the point is, it's unfair to nullify what the OP is arguing for here on this specific thread just because he may not agree on a separate doctrine that hadn't even come up on its own.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
2Co 5:15 " And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again."
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Those very points were addressed in the video.
Do you consider yourself to be a son of God now or are you waiting to become one at some future time?
You are making a claim but offered no support for it.
Our full redemption is in the future. He has made that clear via scripture.
Here is 1 Timothy 4:1-10. Notice what Paul is telling Timothy and then understand that Paul is not claiming that God has saved all people…as you are arguing.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.
If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed. Have nothing to do with irreverent, silly myths. Rather train yourself for godliness; for while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance. For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
Pay careful attention because Paul is explaining why Timothy is training to teach and share the gospel. He is doing so because God saves people from all nations, tribes and tongues. God is not a prejudiced God who will only save Jews. Paul says God “especially (saves) those who believe.” Paul is not saying that all humans are saved.
The reader can understand.
Other than providing scripture, you may be correct...sigh.
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