Predestination: Meaning and Application

Bob,

Whether you are able to understand what I am saying is not the point, but I do not think you understand what I am asking you. So let me do this in a step by step manner.

You state that you believe that God knows the future. You also state that you do not believe that God would simply create someone in order to destroy them.

So why did God create anyone who would not believe?

 

Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate your interest in going into the order of creation, ie supra, infra, sub, etc; however, I do not find that they are helpful ultimately in resolving our concerns. Why? Because they exist in the mind of God and they do not change the nature of what results from creation. With the development of open theism, I think that our understanding of the foreknowledge of God has been challenged. The position of middle-knowledge was first an attempt to address the difficulty of foreknowledge. God cannot know something that is not actual. You cannot know the moon is made of cheese for example. You can believe it but that does not make it so. With God knowing who would and would not be saved prior to creation he is decreeing the eventuality of what will actually take place. Therefore as you have stated there is no difference in terms of substance in the foreknowledge debate, as I have already made plain my view.

You are entirely missing the point here because I am not arguing how one is condemned here, but I have in another thread done so, if you care to go and read the types of Calvinist thread. The point I am making is that Bob does not want to sign off on predestination because he believes that it is not true to who God is, inasmuch as he does not believe that God would create someone to destroy them for his pleasure. I am simply asking, how does God not decree election both ways if he knows in advance who will and will not be saved, and yet he moves forward with setting up the created order in such a way that it accomplishes precisely what Bob opposes?

What reformers are you referring to because the reformers are the ones who argue for predestination? You are like Bob in as much as you seem opposed to the notion that God created individuals who cannot nor will they ever believe in the gospel and therefore they will ultimately be condemn to hell.

 

Oh, your view is clear, just so long as you realize that God by knowing the future prior to creating chose to create a world where some individuals would be saved and others would not. Further, by being omnipresent and omniscience he knew the individuals by name. Prior to creating the world he knew each individual case and with that knowledge he chose to redeem those who would believe and not to redeem those who would not believe. Who would or would not believe is not in question because God knows the future. Therefore as a side note when Christ died on the cross, he died knowing for whom would benefit from his death, and it was for those who would believe. That group is clearly set forth in Scripture as the elect.

In order to simplify a complex discussion one has to eliminate as many variables as one can. So, for the record: I am not disputing the need to believe in order to be identified with Christ. That does not have any bearing on who is and who is not predestined. Why? The end result is the same with your view and mine. Those who truly believe will go to heaven and those who do not will go to a place called hell.

What is a difference in our views is the role of man and the sovereignty of God. You seem to want to remove God from any role in electing who would and would not believe. If God knew as you state that an individual would believe and therefore he elected them, the effect is the same as what I am saying. The only difference is that I allow that because God knew this and determined to create with that knowledge he plays a role in distinguishing who is and who is not elect. IN YOUR VIEW GOD DEPENDS ON MAN TO MAKE THAT DISTINCTION.

Let me offer you this, either God has foreknowledge and the distinction is his or he is waiting to find out who will and will not be saved just like the rest of us, but you cannot have it both ways. Bob I do not doubt your sincerity, but you can be sincere and be sincerely wrong.

While I was typing you posted this:

Seeing is knowing because knowing means that it actually exists. You cannot know something that does not exist.

 

Boy this could take a while but here we go.

If the moon is not made of cheese, God cannot know that the moon is made of cheese. God does not lie and there is no untruth in God. Therefore what God knows is what is actually the case. There is not an alternate universe where the moon is made of cheese. The moon is not made of cheese and therefore God knows what is and is not the actual case. If you do not believe in Jesus then you will die and go to hell. God knows who will and who will not go to hell. Those that are known by God to go to hell will actually go to hell. There is not an uncertainty with the knowledge because it is actual. The same is true of the elect they are definite and they are certain. There is not a potential or openness to that number. They are enumerated and known by God each by name. The elect were known prior to creation. Therefore inasmuch as God knew who would and would not be counted among the elect and yet he still chose to create or set into motion the created order he made a qualitative decision. If I create in the fashion in which I envision then there will be a set group who go to hell and another group who goes to heaven. The nature of how they get categorized is another matter. I am not arguing that God condemns individuals without merit, but he decides the rules and means by which individuals will be condemned, therefore, regardless of what you may think, salvation is not left in question or open ended. The elect are defined and known prior to creation.

Now having said that God sets in place a system or means through which he will judge those individuals. Their own freewill is a factor in the process. But God is not dependent on man to determine his own fate. Illustration: If I were to set up a maze and put a rat in the maze. I would not have any control directly over the rat and he would not be like a remote control car, and yet I could put in place stimuli that would give the rat impetus to negotiate the maze in whatever way I deemed appropriate. If I put food in the maze the scent of the food could lead him, or I could put negative feedback like electric shock to direct him. Regardless if I wanted to setup a maze I could set it up in such a way that the rat would negotiate to the exact point I desired. There would not be any violation of the rats ability to make decisions. He just would have the necessary eliminates in place to lead him to the eventual end.

Now if I were to put a bug zapper outside my window, I can know that there will be some bugs that get zapped and others that do not get zapped for whatever reason. If I were to have foreknowledge of the individual bugs and their names and I decided to go ahead and put the bug zapper outside my window, one could conclude that I knew who and who would not get zapped and did so with that knowledge. The names of those who get zapped are the elect and the names of those who do not get zapped are the reprobate. It was my decision to put the zapper outside the window and therefore I determined that I would allow for the elect to be numbered and the reprobate to be numbered according to what I foreknew. Yet what determined the fate of the bugs could be viewed much differently. Some bugs were more prone to being drawn to the zapper and others were not. Some bugs never got within a close enough range to even be drawn. In order to be drawn to the zapper you had to be in range [hear the gospel] and you had to feel compelled to respond to the light.

Do you see how this works?

 

An open theist would not allow that God has foreknowledge. Try to read what I have written and think about it for a period of time before you respond. That may help some because these concepts are not easily understood nor do I claim to have perfect understanding. But if you have an uncertainty then ask away and I will do my best to expound the truth as I see it...