Predestination: Meaning and Application

[Brother Bob]

If God knew prior to setting the created order into motion who would and would not believe and yet he still set the world into motion, did he not allow that those who would not believe would be destroyed? So for your view of God to be consistent God would have had to create an order where no one would be destroyed. Why? Because you hold to foreknowledge and you claim that God would not create someone simply in order to destroy them. IF God knows who will and will not believe prior to setting up the created order then he is in effect decreeing to salvation the individual persons whom are believers in your view and reprobating the individuals who are not believers.

Read my post, I didn't say this!

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Bob,

Whether you are able to understand what I am saying is not the point, but I do not think you understand what I am asking you. So let me do this in a step by step manner.

You state that you believe that God knows the future. You also state that you do not believe that God would simply create someone in order to destroy them.

So why did God create anyone who would not believe?

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Is this God's permissive will...or His declarative will. Before you answer, take into consideration all sin.

Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate your interest in going into the order of creation, ie supra, infra, sub, etc; however, I do not find that they are helpful ultimately in resolving our concerns. Why? Because they exist in the mind of God and they do not change the nature of what results from creation. With the development of open theism, I think that our understanding of the foreknowledge of God has been challenged. The position of middle-knowledge was first an attempt to address the difficulty of foreknowledge. God cannot know something that is not actual. You cannot know the moon is made of cheese for example. You can believe it but that does not make it so. With God knowing who would and would not be saved prior to creation he is decreeing the eventuality of what will actually take place. Therefore as you have stated there is no difference in terms of substance in the foreknowledge debate, as I have already made plain my view.

He did. Without knowledge of the Law, one is not held accountable for their sin. This applies, then, to every human who has ever been born, as an infant has no knowledge of the Law. Knowledge of breaking God's Law leads to destruction.

You are entirely missing the point here because I am not arguing how one is condemned here, but I have in another thread done so, if you care to go and read the types of Calvinist thread. The point I am making is that Bob does not want to sign off on predestination because he believes that it is not true to who God is, inasmuch as he does not believe that God would create someone to destroy them for his pleasure. I am simply asking, how does God not decree election both ways if he knows in advance who will and will not be saved, and yet he moves forward with setting up the created order in such a way that it accomplishes precisely what Bob opposes?

There is no difference whatsoever between Calvinism and arminianism in this regards. God doesn't declare salvation...nor does He "look into the future". He's omnipresent. This is in effect the same double predestination that reformers so vehemently oppose.

What reformers are you referring to because the reformers are the ones who argue for predestination? You are like Bob in as much as you seem opposed to the notion that God created individuals who cannot nor will they ever believe in the gospel and therefore they will ultimately be condemn to hell.

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob,

Whether you are able to understand what I am saying is not the point, but I do not think you understand what I am asking you. So let me do this in a step by step manner.

You state that you believe that God knows the future. You also state that you do not believe that God would simply create someone in order to destroy them.

So why did God create anyone who would not believe?

I don't know how to put it any plainer.
God created all men with a choice. God established events that would take place for a man to be saved, such as He calls, He predestinates to be conformed to the image of His Son, He justifys and He Glorifies.

1. God creates man with a choice of good or evil and that is all men.

2. God is Omnipresence so He sees all and knows all and is everywhere.

3. God has events that will take place for Salvation which depend on whether man chooses good or evil, believes for disbelieves.

4. God does not pick who will believe or disbelieve but sees who the believer is. Does not look into the future but sees who the believer is and sets in motion the events of calling, predestination, justifying and Glorifing.

5. If a man is not saved it is because he would not believe on the only begotten Son of God, but he did have a chance to believe but loved darkness rather than light but God saw man before he was ever born whether he believed or not. I hope this is clear?

 

[Brother Bob]

Baptist_Pastor/Theologian

Let me ask you some questions.

1. Do you believe God can see your natural death?

2. Do you believe God can see you being Glorified?

3. Do you believe God knows who will be saved?

4. I think we both believe in the events of Salvation which God has in place. Do you believe God sees who will receive those events?

5. Now, I didn't ask you if God knows, I ask you if God sees?

 

[Blammo]

This is refuted by other scripture, however. To say "you meant it for evil but God meant it for good" is not something that happens in spite of God's foreknowledge. To say "God meant it for good" is to say "God planned it to happen this way, and He did so for good."

Then there are the countless other more specific references to God changing the direction of kings, declaring the end from the beginning (not KNOWING the end from the beginning but declaring it), and so on.


Edited to add: IMO, this issue goes straight to the heart of trusting God. If things happen in spite of God's intent, then God is not in control of every detail. If God is not in control of every detail, then Joseph would have no reason to trust that God was in control when he was abducted, or falsely accused and imprisoned. He would also have had to say, "You meant it for evil, but God used it for good."

Finally, note that Jesus says that not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from God's will. It doesn't say apart from His knowledge, but apart from His will. If God's will is in action even when a sparrow falls to the ground, then man is far less important to God than sparrows if God leaves man's eternal destiny in man's own hands.

Here you prove God is sovereign. I do not disagree with that. It only shows how God is not a bystander. God involves himself in all things. I don't think God's sovereighty and man's God given freewill are at odds. If God intercedes in the events of the world, it is not a violation of man's God given freewill, for He is God.

Consider this verse:

Psalms 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

If all of the events taking place, from the beginning of creation til now, are planned out in advance by God, what is He judging, and why is He angry?

I am not making statements here. I have decided on this thread to set aside what I believe, and seriously consider the theological teachings believed by others. I hope this discussion can stay civil. I confess I have engaged in "ad-hominem" debates on previous threads, but, on this one I will not.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

I don't know how to put it any plainer.
God created all men with a choice. God established events that would take place for a man to be saved, such as He calls, He predestinates to be conformed to the image of His Son, He justifys and He Glorifies.

1. God creates man with a choice of good or evil and that is all men.

2. God is Omnipresence so He sees all and knows all and is everywhere.

3. God has events that will take place for Salvation which depend on whether man chooses good or evil, believes for disbelieves.

4. God does not pick who will believe or disbelieve but sees who the believer is. Does not look into the future but sees who the believer is and sets in motion the events of calling, predestination, justifying and Glorifing.

5. If a man is not saved it is because he would not believe on the only begotten Son of God, but he did have a chance to believe but loved darkness rather than light but God saw man before he was ever born whether he believed or not. I hope this is clear?

Oh, your view is clear, just so long as you realize that God by knowing the future prior to creating chose to create a world where some individuals would be saved and others would not. Further, by being omnipresent and omniscience he knew the individuals by name. Prior to creating the world he knew each individual case and with that knowledge he chose to redeem those who would believe and not to redeem those who would not believe. Who would or would not believe is not in question because God knows the future. Therefore as a side note when Christ died on the cross, he died knowing for whom would benefit from his death, and it was for those who would believe. That group is clearly set forth in Scripture as the elect.

In order to simplify a complex discussion one has to eliminate as many variables as one can. So, for the record: I am not disputing the need to believe in order to be identified with Christ. That does not have any bearing on who is and who is not predestined. Why? The end result is the same with your view and mine. Those who truly believe will go to heaven and those who do not will go to a place called hell.

What is a difference in our views is the role of man and the sovereignty of God. You seem to want to remove God from any role in electing who would and would not believe. If God knew as you state that an individual would believe and therefore he elected them, the effect is the same as what I am saying. The only difference is that I allow that because God knew this and determined to create with that knowledge he plays a role in distinguishing who is and who is not elect. IN YOUR VIEW GOD DEPENDS ON MAN TO MAKE THAT DISTINCTION.

Let me offer you this, either God has foreknowledge and the distinction is his or he is waiting to find out who will and will not be saved just like the rest of us, but you cannot have it both ways. Bob I do not doubt your sincerity, but you can be sincere and be sincerely wrong.

While I was typing you posted this:

Baptist_Pastor/Theologian

Let me ask you some questions.

1. Do you believe God can see your natural death?

2. Do you believe God can see you being Glorified?

3. Do you believe God knows who will be saved?

4. I think we both believe in the events of Salvation which God has in place. Do you believe God sees who will receive those events?

5. Now, I didn't ask you if God knows, I ask you if God sees?

Seeing is knowing because knowing means that it actually exists. You cannot know something that does not exist.

 

[Jarthur001]

Brother...Baptist_Pastor/Theologian

You have stated better in one half hour what I have TRIED to do for 3 months and failed.

God has given you a gift...and blessed you well with understanding from above.

Thanks for taking the time....

Please...carry-on.


In Christ...James

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
I don't know how to put it any plainer.
God created all men with a choice. God established events that would take place for a man to be saved, such as He calls, He predestinates to be conformed to the image of His Son, He justifys and He Glorifies.

1. God creates man with a choice of good or evil and that is all men.

2. God is Omnipresence so He sees all and knows all and is everywhere.

3. God has events that will take place for Salvation which depend on whether man chooses good or evil, believes for disbelieves.

4. God does not pick who will believe or disbelieve but sees who the believer is. Does not look into the future but sees who the believer is and sets in motion the events of calling, predestination, justifying and Glorifing.

5. If a man is not saved it is because he would not believe on the only begotten Son of God, but he did have a chance to believe but loved darkness rather than light but God saw man before he was ever born whether he believed or not. I hope this is clear?

Oh, your view is clear, just so long as you realize that God by knowing the future prior to creating chose to create a world where some individuals would be saved and others would not. Further, by being omnipresent and omniscience he knew the individuals by name. Prior to creating the world he knew each individual case and with that knowledge he chose to redeem those who would believe and not to redeem those who would not believe. Who would or would not believe is not in question because God knows the future. Therefore as a side note when Christ died on the cross, he died knowing for whom would benefit from his death, and it was for those who would believe. That group is clearly set forth in Scripture as the elect.

In order to simplify a complex discussion one has to eliminate as many variables as one can. So, for the record: I am not disputing the need to believe in order to be identified with Christ. That does not have any bearing on who is and who is not predestined. Why? The end result is the same with your view and mine. Those who truly believe will go to heaven and those who do not will go to a place called hell.

What is a difference in our views is the role of man and the sovereignty of God. You seem to want to remove God from any role in electing who would and would not believe. If God knew as you state that an individual would believe and therefore he elected them, the effect is the same as what I am saying. The only difference is that I allow that because God knew this and determined to create with that knowledge he plays a role in distinguishing who is and who is not elect. IN YOUR VIEW GOD DEPENDS ON MAN TO MAKE THAT DISTINCTION.

Let me offer you this, either God has foreknowledge and the distinction is his or he is waiting to find out who will and will not be saved just like the rest of us, but you cannot have it both ways. Bob I do not doubt your sincerity, but you can be sincere and be sincerely wrong.

While I was typing you posted this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Baptist_Pastor/Theologian

Let me ask you some questions.

1. Do you believe God can see your natural death?

2. Do you believe God can see you being Glorified?

3. Do you believe God knows who will be saved?

4. I think we both believe in the events of Salvation which God has in place. Do you believe God sees who will receive those events?

5. Now, I didn't ask you if God knows, I ask you if God sees?


Seeing is knowing because knowing means that it actually exists. You cannot know something that does not exist.

It seems you and I agree on more than I do with any of the other Calvinist. I thank you for your answers on the questions also for your answers confirm what I believe. Now we do differ whether man has the choice or God chooses for him. I believe in a God that give all men the same choice and if someone goes to hell it is at his own hands. That is why I believe God gave man a choice of good or evil and God knows that choice before we are born or even before the world. The belief does not come before the conditions God set out for Salvation. What I believe about God going ahead and creating even though He knew before hand that some are lost is no different than what the Calvinist believe in that God chooses to change some so they have faith and chooses not to change the others so then they go to hell and God knows they are going there. This discussion has been most civil and I thank you.
I don't understand the part of having it both ways. Those going to hell are going at their own disbelief and not God being partial and choosing some to be the elect and letting the others not have a chance. At least the way I believe they all had the same chance.

There is a great difference in God creating man and giving all a choice know some would choose evil and be lost than a God creating man to go to hell without ever having a choice not to go. amen,

 

[webdog]

Seeing is knowing because knowing means that it actually exists. You cannot know something that does not exist.

To us...yes this is true. To God...no.

 

[webdog]

God cannot know something that is not actual.

Really? Then how is God omniscient?

With God knowing who would and would not be saved prior to creation he is decreeing the eventuality of what will actually take place.

You, like James, are confining God within our time. God is not bound by our time, including the time prior to our creation.

...as he does not believe that God would create someone to destroy them for his pleasure.

Nor do I. He destroys them because of their unbelief...not because He "pleasures" in it. This goes against Scripture.

I am simply asking, how does God not decree election both ways if he knows in advance who will and will not be saved, and yet he moves forward with setting up the created order in such a way that it accomplishes precisely what Bob opposes?

Not a simple question to answer. Only answer I can give is that God is omniscient and omnipresent. This doesn't weaken the argument that God still gives man real choices. Scripture is filled with them.

You are like Bob in as much as you seem opposed to the notion that God created individuals who cannot nor will they ever believe in the gospel and therefore they will ultimately be condemn to hell.

I won't speak for Bob, but I doubt he believes that God created men who will never believe. I don't believe God created man who cannot believe.

 

[Jarthur001]

You, like James, are confining God within our time. God is not bound by our time, including the time prior to our creation.

Just for the record...and not to pick a fight…lets be clear.
This is what I have said over and over again.

You are wrong. I say God is not bound just to time. But when God WORKS with man, He also works in time. Notice I always say God or Christ work cannot be changed, for it is locked in time. God works in time when He works with Man, for man is matter and made by God and is part of time...........

Seen one out of a few times here …

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=819402&postcount=68

Carry on.




In Christ..James

 

[npetreley]

Your thinking leads to hyper calvinism. If He planned all, in the sense you are implying, He has planned every sin, too. No way of getting around that.

That's not hypercalvinism unless you mean God forced the person to do the sin against his will. But He did plan every one, yes. How else can you possibly interpret "You meant it for evil but God meant it for good"? Here you have the definitive statement that men do evil of their own will, exactly according to God's plan. As crazy as that sounds to our limited human ability to understand things, that is exactly what the Bible says, and I can't think of a better place than right in that verse.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Really? Then how is God omniscient?


You, like James, are confining God within our time. God is not bound by our time, including the time prior to our creation.

Nor do I. He destroys them because of their unbelief...not because He "pleasures" in it. This goes against Scripture.

Not a simple question to answer. Only answer I can give is that God is omniscient and omnipresent. This doesn't weaken the argument that God still gives man real choices. Scripture is filled with them.

I won't speak for Bob, but I doubt he believes that God created men who will never believe. I don't believe God created man who cannot believe.

Boy this could take a while but here we go.

If the moon is not made of cheese, God cannot know that the moon is made of cheese. God does not lie and there is no untruth in God. Therefore what God knows is what is actually the case. There is not an alternate universe where the moon is made of cheese. The moon is not made of cheese and therefore God knows what is and is not the actual case. If you do not believe in Jesus then you will die and go to hell. God knows who will and who will not go to hell. Those that are known by God to go to hell will actually go to hell. There is not an uncertainty with the knowledge because it is actual. The same is true of the elect they are definite and they are certain. There is not a potential or openness to that number. They are enumerated and known by God each by name. The elect were known prior to creation. Therefore inasmuch as God knew who would and would not be counted among the elect and yet he still chose to create or set into motion the created order he made a qualitative decision. If I create in the fashion in which I envision then there will be a set group who go to hell and another group who goes to heaven. The nature of how they get categorized is another matter. I am not arguing that God condemns individuals without merit, but he decides the rules and means by which individuals will be condemned, therefore, regardless of what you may think, salvation is not left in question or open ended. The elect are defined and known prior to creation.

Now having said that God sets in place a system or means through which he will judge those individuals. Their own freewill is a factor in the process. But God is not dependent on man to determine his own fate. Illustration: If I were to set up a maze and put a rat in the maze. I would not have any control directly over the rat and he would not be like a remote control car, and yet I could put in place stimuli that would give the rat impetus to negotiate the maze in whatever way I deemed appropriate. If I put food in the maze the scent of the food could lead him, or I could put negative feedback like electric shock to direct him. Regardless if I wanted to setup a maze I could set it up in such a way that the rat would negotiate to the exact point I desired. There would not be any violation of the rats ability to make decisions. He just would have the necessary eliminates in place to lead him to the eventual end.

Now if I were to put a bug zapper outside my window, I can know that there will be some bugs that get zapped and others that do not get zapped for whatever reason. If I were to have foreknowledge of the individual bugs and their names and I decided to go ahead and put the bug zapper outside my window, one could conclude that I knew who and who would not get zapped and did so with that knowledge. The names of those who get zapped are the elect and the names of those who do not get zapped are the reprobate. It was my decision to put the zapper outside the window and therefore I determined that I would allow for the elect to be numbered and the reprobate to be numbered according to what I foreknew. Yet what determined the fate of the bugs could be viewed much differently. Some bugs were more prone to being drawn to the zapper and others were not. Some bugs never got within a close enough range to even be drawn. In order to be drawn to the zapper you had to be in range [hear the gospel] and you had to feel compelled to respond to the light.

Do you see how this works?

 

[webdog]

That's not hypercalvinism unless you mean God forced the person to do the sin against his will. But He did plan every one, yes. How else can you possibly interpret "You meant it for evil but God meant it for good"? Here you have the definitive statement that men do evil of their own will, exactly according to God's plan. As crazy as that sounds to our limited human ability to understand things, that is exactly what the Bible says, and I can't think of a better place than right in that verse.

What the verse means to me is the fact that man willfully sins, God will use that sin...not plan it...for His purpose. I guess it comes down to what you mean by "plan". If I "plan" on vacationing, I get the ball rolling in the process. God doesn't "plan" sin....He does not tempt us.

 

[webdog]

Do you see how this works?

Now you sound more open theistic. I'm sorry...I'm having a hard time grasping exactly what you believe.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Now you sound more open theistic. I'm sorry...I'm having a hard time grasping exactly what you believe.

An open theist would not allow that God has foreknowledge. Try to read what I have written and think about it for a period of time before you respond. That may help some because these concepts are not easily understood nor do I claim to have perfect understanding. But if you have an uncertainty then ask away and I will do my best to expound the truth as I see it...

 

[npetreley]

What the verse means to me is the fact that man willfully sins, God will use that sin...not plan it...for His purpose. I guess it comes down to what you mean by "plan". If I "plan" on vacationing, I get the ball rolling in the process. God doesn't "plan" sin....He does not tempt us.

It says "God meant it". How can you possibly interpret that to mean anything other than the fact that God planned it? I think the problem you're having with this concept is that you can't see how God can plan for men to sin of their own will. You reason that if this is true, then God made them sin, and that removes the responsibility from the men who sinned. But that's not at all what this verse says. It says that Joseph's brothers MEANT IT FOR EVIL. They did it of their own will, and they are 100% responsible for doing it. But they didn't do it in a vacuum. They did it according to God's plan, which He laid out before the beginning of time.

Or, in short, you're having trouble with the fact that God planned sin, but men still do it of their own will and are still fully responsible. I know that this is a terribly difficult concept to grasp, and I don't fully understand it, myself. But the Bible says it, so I believe it.

What I find far more difficult to grasp, however, is why people can come up with doctrines such as "God foresaw who would believe and elected them" when there is not a single verse in the Bible that even implies this. Yet when the Bible comes right out and says that men do evil of their own will exactly according to what God MEANT to happen, these same people don't believe what the Bible says.

 

[webdog]

It says "God meant it". How can you possibly interpret that to mean anything other than the fact that God planned it? I think the problem you're having with this concept is that you can't see how God can plan for men to sin of their own will. You reason that if this is true, then God made them sin, and that removes the responsibility from the men who sinned. But that's not at all what this verse says. It says that Joseph's brothers MEANT IT FOR EVIL. They did it of their own will, and they are 100% responsible for doing it. But they didn't do it in a vacuum. They did it according to God's plan, which He laid out before the beginning of time.

Or, in short, you're having trouble with the fact that God planned sin, but men still do it of their own will and are still fully responsible. I know that this is a terribly difficult concept to grasp, and I don't fully understand it, myself. But the Bible says it, so I believe it.

What I find far more difficult to grasp, however, is why people can come up with doctrines such as "God foresaw who would believe and elected them" when there is not a single verse in the Bible that even implies this. Yet when the Bible comes right out and says that men do evil of their own will exactly according to what God MEANT to happen, these same people don't believe what the Bible says.

I don't believe I am interpreting it any different. The phrase "God meant it" in light of God's omniscience makes perfect sense to me. He already knew the sin man commits...and uses it for His glory. This is what I believe "I meant it" means.

 

[webdog]

An open theist would not allow that God has foreknowledge. Try to read what I have written and think about it for a period of time before you respond. That may help some because these concepts are not easily understood nor do I claim to have perfect understanding. But if you have an uncertainty then ask away and I will do my best to expound the truth as I see it...

I know what open theism is. Your analogy of the bug zapper implies that we have foreknowledge which bugs will get zapped. We don't. This is why I said it sounds like open theism to me.