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Predestination: Meaning and Application
- Thread starter Baptist_Pastor/Theologian
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Brother Bob
New Member
One simple word "believe".
eternal life for He is the author and finisher of our faith.
Why? is belief left out, I don't understand. Why would it make God unsovereign to make man to have a choice.
God's will is not always done for He doesn't want anyone to perish.
Sure there could of been more save. He will say, I knocked and you didn't open, I called and you didn't answer, I was hungry and you fed me not, I was in prison and you visited me not and even one will be "he only wanted the crumbs from your table and you would not give them."
God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever would "believe" should not perish.
One little word that separates us all and that is "belief". All this debating, arguing you name it over one little word. "belief. When almost ever Scripture about Salvation says either faith or belief.
eternal life for He is the author and finisher of our faith.
Why? is belief left out, I don't understand. Why would it make God unsovereign to make man to have a choice.
God's will is not always done for He doesn't want anyone to perish.
Sure there could of been more save. He will say, I knocked and you didn't open, I called and you didn't answer, I was hungry and you fed me not, I was in prison and you visited me not and even one will be "he only wanted the crumbs from your table and you would not give them."
God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever would "believe" should not perish.
One little word that separates us all and that is "belief". All this debating, arguing you name it over one little word. "belief. When almost ever Scripture about Salvation says either faith or belief.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Baptist_Pastor/Theologian said:
Are you sure these are questions asked for the purpose of better understanding my position, or simply more arguments? :smilewinkgrin:
First, God doesn't want to save everyone. He wants to save everyone who believes. I make that distinction because Calvinist like to paint our view of God as being some failure who wishes He could save people but just can't. God has set the condition for salvation. Covenants are always initiated by the Father and they have a condition which must be met. The covenant of grace's condition is faith, as opposed to the works of the law. God desires to save those who freely choose to follow him by faith. He desires men hear the gospel and come to faith, but He doesn't desire to force them to believe. If that was His OP then why not just make a bunch of causually determined angels, or heck why not just get the rocks to worship Him? He desire those who choose to worship Him in spirit and in truth. In fact he seeks such worshippers. Do you suggest he makes them worshippers and then seeks them? That is obviously not the meaning of the text.
Now, lets look at your first question: "How could God have created a world with foreknowledge and done so in such a manner than he does not have determination in the outcome of the created order?"
I don't know. How could I? This question is like asking an ant how a man completed an algerba equation. My point is only that divine foreknowledge is eternal...infinite...beyond time and space and cannot be fully comprehended by finite beings, but according to the meaning of the word itself it is simply "knowing something beforehand," not "determining something beforehand" and you don't seem to believe God can have one attribute without the other. Tell me this: Is it possible for God to foreknow something without having predetermined it? If so, how would that look, give examples. If not, then what is the distinction, if any, between God's foreknowing an event and predetermining it?
I think if you really struggle with this question you will find the answer you are seeking.
Jarthur001
Active Member
How about a real life story?webdog said:
I have many stories to share of those that died before they heard. One big time...is the time before the cross. You know...all the nations that was not choosen.
Does your church support missions? I'm sure they do to some degree. Go talk to one that your church has sent to a 3rd world. Better..go talk to someone that has shared in Ireland. Our church just had a small group come back from Ireland. They cried as they told sharing the gospel to some that had never even heard the name Jesus. In Ireland mind you. You may claim...but they heard when your group came. Yes those did. And 100 others died the year before not every hearing. Prove it? I can..based on stories told to the group.
This is what is so strange about the debate. Calvinist believe God elects and free-willers make fun and say..why witness if your believe in election???? Calvinist say..because of the doctrines of grace..we then should go tell..for the Holy Spirit lives within us..and DRAWS all men to Him as we share...while free-willers say...don't worry about it dude....the Bible says all will hear some day....if you get bored..look to the stars..the gospel is in the stars. Your on your own bud. I'm sure you will hear...for the Bible says so. So hang in there...some day it will all come to you.
saturneptune
New Member
The subject of missions can be worded any way a person wishes to direct an argument in the "Calvin" vs free-will debate.
If one is a Calvinsit, one could say, on the positive side, we have missions because we are commanded by the Lord to spread the Gospel, and this is what God uses to draw those who He has elected, or one could say on the negative side, why bother, everyone is either elected or not.
If one is a free-will type person, on the positive side one could say, the way a person decides about the Gospel is through missions, or one could say on the negative side, why bother, everyone will get the Gospel explained somehow.
Believing God is sovereign stands by itself and is self explanatory. Using missions to build up such a fact when it needs no further explanation is not only unnecessary, but is out of context to the free will debate.
Well, Jarthur, there you go again, giving aid and comfort to the Arminian side. Why dont you just join them?
If one is a Calvinsit, one could say, on the positive side, we have missions because we are commanded by the Lord to spread the Gospel, and this is what God uses to draw those who He has elected, or one could say on the negative side, why bother, everyone is either elected or not.
If one is a free-will type person, on the positive side one could say, the way a person decides about the Gospel is through missions, or one could say on the negative side, why bother, everyone will get the Gospel explained somehow.
Believing God is sovereign stands by itself and is self explanatory. Using missions to build up such a fact when it needs no further explanation is not only unnecessary, but is out of context to the free will debate.
Well, Jarthur, there you go again, giving aid and comfort to the Arminian side. Why dont you just join them?
Jarthur001 said:
James - You and I both believe Christ said "go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature". That is why you do it, and that is why we do it. I think it is unfair for you say free-willers don't worry about preaching the gospel. Since you believe all who were chosen before the foundation of the world will be saved, and all who were not will be damned, it seems more likely to me that you would not worry about it. (I believe you do care, and I believe you do preach it.) I consider every person I see to be one for who's sins Christ died. That is quite a motivator. You must believe when you preach the gospel, it may be wasted on one who is not of the elect. That would be a demotivator. I mean, what's the use, it is already all planned out anyway.
I believe you and I both preach the gospel for the right reason. That is that Christ told us to. We just may have more of a reason than you do. I don't think it was fair for you to suggest that us free-willers would have such an attitude as you described above.
Arguments on arguments
How does this differ from the logic non-Calvinists use against Calvinists?
If this is the case, what's the point of going out and witnessing if everyone at some point will hear the Gospel?
If your answer is "there is therefore no point," then this is no different from Hyper-Calvinism.
If your answer is along the lines of "well, everyone will hear at some point, but we need to give them more light," then it seems that God holds these poor souls accountable for something you neglected (or weren't capable, [or God was incapable]) of doing. Sounds like a fair and all-loving God?
The possitive assertion to prove a negative.
webdog said:
How does this differ from the logic non-Calvinists use against Calvinists?
If this is the case, what's the point of going out and witnessing if everyone at some point will hear the Gospel?
If your answer is "there is therefore no point," then this is no different from Hyper-Calvinism.
If your answer is along the lines of "well, everyone will hear at some point, but we need to give them more light," then it seems that God holds these poor souls accountable for something you neglected (or weren't capable, [or God was incapable]) of doing. Sounds like a fair and all-loving God?
webdog said:
The possitive assertion to prove a negative.
psalms109:31
Active Member
hearing the Gospel
We are the spreader of the Gospel , the will of God that we go out and tell the world the Good news. That is God's will for us. He might send us to our jobs, our neiborhoods or to the deepest part of Africa. It is our responsibility to spread the Gospel. If someone does not hear it, we are held accoutible for it.
Look At Paul's life more than his words, that was a man who realized people's live's was in his hands, put there by God.
Jesus is the foundation, How are you building on it.
God has predestined that believers shall be saved by His ownm words. If you believe in Jesus you shall be saved. If you endure to the end you shall be saved.
We are not to be arrogant, but afraid, if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare.
You know why I believe that He predestined that believers be conformed to His Son, because believers was the audience of the letters.
We have little faith in Jesus and His word, if we limit the word that God loved the world that He sent His Son.
We have already been condemned, not because we have not been chosen, but because we did not believe in the one He sent.
Jude 1:
20But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. 21Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
22Be merciful to those who doubt; 23snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.
Romans 11:14
in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.
Ezekiel 3:
18 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for [a] his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.
20 "Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself."
2 Corinthians 5:
16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin[a] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Matthew 9:36
When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.
Matthew 5:
13"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.
14"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heave
We are the spreader of the Gospel , the will of God that we go out and tell the world the Good news. That is God's will for us. He might send us to our jobs, our neiborhoods or to the deepest part of Africa. It is our responsibility to spread the Gospel. If someone does not hear it, we are held accoutible for it.
Look At Paul's life more than his words, that was a man who realized people's live's was in his hands, put there by God.
Jesus is the foundation, How are you building on it.
God has predestined that believers shall be saved by His ownm words. If you believe in Jesus you shall be saved. If you endure to the end you shall be saved.
We are not to be arrogant, but afraid, if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare.
You know why I believe that He predestined that believers be conformed to His Son, because believers was the audience of the letters.
We have little faith in Jesus and His word, if we limit the word that God loved the world that He sent His Son.
We have already been condemned, not because we have not been chosen, but because we did not believe in the one He sent.
Jude 1:
20But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. 21Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
22Be merciful to those who doubt; 23snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.
Romans 11:14
in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.
Ezekiel 3:
18 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for [a] his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.
20 "Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself."
2 Corinthians 5:
16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin[a] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Matthew 9:36
When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.
Matthew 5:
13"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.
14"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heave
Jarthur001
Active Member
Blammo said:
I think that we all say that we should...i agree. This is just part of the debate from the free-will side. This is the pat answer for free-will side, when asked this…
”Why are some born in a family that knows and loves God so that they can hear Gods Word and make that choice?”
OR Maybe when asked this..
“Why are some in a land that has never heard the name of Christ?”
OR
"When shown that we (church) must go tell the world"..
My post was not picking on anyone. This is the very words that you always hear when free-will is shown in light of the some are given more grace to believe then others.
and then as you seen above..
Thus my post.
I have been to the field. I have 12 very close freinds..that I grow up with, that I played ball with and stayed at each others house that are on the field today. My kids..many of the families that had kids the same age, are on the field or going there. My girls...all have spent time. My girls have been to 8 nations over 10 years and to many large citys...to hand out tracks...to have VBS...and on college mission teams preaching and singing. Each girl is in full time church work in the states...but one's heart is on the field. Why give this list??
I know. I know because I have been there myself. I know because I have seen my girls come back crying...wanting to "win the World". We know we can't win any one. All we know is the Bible say..Go Tell. It is God that saves. I know because of those there now, and the stories they tell. I know because of the letters I get from the ones I grow-up with. This world is mainly not saved. The world for the most part does not think of God. and....many have never heard Christ name.
I pick on no one. I use their own words as to why we do not need to send out.
I share this story. Someone told me while trying to gain support to go to the field they want to a mega church. The church recieved them well, and said they agree with their vision of sharing the gospel. The church voted and said they could not at this time afford to give the extra $500 a month. That same meeting they voted to pass a $70,000 + laser light show for the church.
This is not to pick on the mega churches. This is just one story that shows how we get things backwards at time.
Brother Bob
New Member
I guess God is not Soverneign after all, right James? You say He doesn't need you to save you but needs you to save
others. He doesn't need your works to save you but needs your "works" to save others. Really??
What I don't understand James; All those statements were true and you are using them as a negative against us. As
long as you use the truth, "go for it". How do you know that Wan has never heard??? please answer and while you are
at it please explain the following Scripture. Anyone who can please answer the following Scripture?
Titus, chapter 2
11": For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
"12": Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
"13": Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
"14": Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
"15": These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
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epistemaniac
New Member
Brother Bob said:Let me try to take these one at a time. I don't like long posts for you lose your sense of what is being said.
My belief is not that God knew before anything existed that you would write this post. My veiw is that God sees all at once with out the restraints of time and sees you write it before the foundation of the world, He sees you write it now, He even sees you write it in the end of time for He is all in all and looks and sees all. You keep getting hung up on me believing that God looks forward in time and sees these things but that is not my belief. I believe He just looks and sees you do it without the restraints of time. Do you understand what I am saying or not?
I saw this and will try to answer it also and then go back and look at the rest of your post.
Does God know the future. The future is for man and when God interacts with man then the future means something to Him but God sees all at once. There is no future when he is "timeless". All he has to do is see. That is why when you ask your question of predestination you are looking at the answer now. I hope I am clear for some say I am being dishonest and my life is serving the Lord and if I did something dishonest I would cry all night long to the Lord to forgive me. My whole being is for the Lord. He has brought me through 2 open heart surgeries, 2 corotery surgeries, double hyneria surgeries. I been cut all too pieces and still praise my Lord for what I have left so please don’t accuse me of being dishonest for it hurts me to the core. Bless,
Yes, God knows all. He is everlasting to everlasting.
hey Bob....
dishonest? no way... I am not saying that.... I am saying that sometimes people do not appreciate the logical conclusions that their views lead to... thats all...
cut to pieces? boy do I know about that.... my spine and neck have been fused 3 times, prior to those I had numerous lamenectomies and many other procedures/surgeries.... I am in constant pain now, due to scar tissue on my sciatic nerve, and from a botched operation where someone or something was not sterile in the operating room which lead to a near fatal staph infection in my spinal column and blood stream.... not a recommended form of entertainment!! lol
as a matter of fact, I have been hospitalized 3 times during the month of July as the pain has spiraled out of control.... IOW, I feel ya! as far as God viewing the future, what I meant by this is that regardless of how one explains it, if God knows all of the events that will occur in all of time, which you seem to believe as well, then God knows/has always known who will believe and who will not. Thus, God brings into being/allows to come into being.... persons whom He knows will never believe. This then is applicable to the often voiced criticism of predestinariansim (be it Augustinianism/Calvinism or whatever) that God creates some people just to send them to hell.
Do you see the connection? No matter what you believe about the mechanics of how this all works out, for all those who affirm that God has exhaustive foreknowledge, the result is still the same. God knows exactly who will believe in Him and who will not. There are no surprises in this regard. Yes, we preach the gospel always to all people and all peoples, but in the end, from God's perspective, He knows and has always known exactly who will believe in Him and who will reject Him. Thus making any criticisms of the predestinarian views, in so far as people coming into being in time and space, and their being saved or not saved, and God always knowing who each individual person who is saved or not saved is concerned, a moot point.
blessings
Brother Bob
New Member
Yes, I see the connection and that is what I believe. The only thing I guess I hold to above that is that man was given a choice to believe or disbelieve, even though God knew who would or would not believe the choice was still man's. I agree for it to be an "all knowing God" then He surely did know who.
I guess it is a moot point to us but for some reason God fixed it that way. When we get to Heaven we will ask him.
I will pray for you and that staph infection is really dangereous. Sounds like you know what pain is too maybe more than me for with all my surgeries, I still maintain a full life but live in pain. I will pray for you epistemaniac and you pray for me. Our discussions have been very good and think we probably don't differ that much.
Jarthur001
Active Member
No..God does not need us. I have never said that. This is what you always say after I post something like this. And..I always reply you are wrong. I never say that we must go because God needs us to go. I said we must go because we love God and tells us to go. God does not need us..and if we do not go he will raise up rocks to tell them. The debate goes this path when a Calvinist claims and proves that some men have....
1) A believing family they are born into,
2) Many churchs to join or just go hear the Gospel
3) can hear radio and see TV stations preaching the gospel
4) people going door to door sharing Gods love
5) Playing as a kid with believers asking you to come to church
6) working along side of believes
7) seeing ads placed in papers.."Come Hear Good Preaching "
8) The Stars
9) The law wrote on his heart
This is a lot of grace given by God to this man.
The other man
1) The Stars...
2) The law wrote on his heart..
This man does not have as much grace.
[/QUOTE]
Sure...from the future (our future
)Rev 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having the eternal gospel to announce to the inhabitants of the earth--to every nation, tribe, language, and people.
I never said that we are not to spread the Gospel. I do believe that all peoples will have the opportunity to hear it at some point, though. You say no. Aresman says I'm asking for a positive based off silence. What I'm really asking is for the one making the claim to back it up with Scripture. We know how Saul (Paul) was saved...didn't include man preaching. We know that an angel will preach the Gospel in Rev. 14:6...not man. Are we to assume that this one angel is an exception? Since God does not want any to perish and all to come to repentance, you don't believe He will provide a means for this? I heard a missionary speak where missionaries visited an area never before visited by the outside world. After sharing the Gospel to them in their tongue, the natives said to each other "so that's who they are talking about". How would they have known this?
Brother Bob
New Member
Jauthor001;
God does not need us..and if we do not go he will raise up rocks to tell them.
So, maybe the rocks told Wan?
You still did not answer the Scripture;
Titus, chapter 2
11": For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
"12": Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
"13": Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
"14": Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
"15": These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
__________________
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
epistemaniac said:
Epistemaniac, I realize you have addressed this to Bob and that you may only want to engage him on this subject, but I feel compelled to point out the inconsistency of this logic once again. You must be willing to acknowledge the distinction between the divine attribute of foreknowledge and the the divine act of predestination. You don't seem to allow for any distinction between them.
Please answer this question: Can God foreknow a choice or event that he has not predestined? If not, why is your view of God so small that you believe this is not possible for Him. If so, then Bob's insistance (along with other "arminians") that EF (exhaustive foreknowledge) is not equal to ED (exhaustive determination) is not moot.
Simply knowing something before it occurs is MUCH different from predetermining something to occur. I am really not sure why you consider that important distinction as a moot point. Could you explain.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Titus, chapter 2
11": For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
All..as in each class of man....jew..greek...fat ..skinny.
But..even if we take your meaning each person. We still have one man with MUCH grace.....and the other man with stars, a rock, and the law on the heart....
which the one with MUCH grace has stars, a rock, the law, A believing family they are born into, Many churches to join or just go hear the Gospel, can hear radio and see TV stations preaching the gospel, people going door to door sharing Gods love, Playing as a kid with believers asking you to come to church, working along side of believes, seeing ads placed in papers.."Come Hear Good Preaching "as as well.
So...if we take your view. Does one have MUCH grace..and the other have less grace? yes or no?
11": For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
All..as in each class of man....jew..greek...fat ..skinny.
But..even if we take your meaning each person. We still have one man with MUCH grace.....and the other man with stars, a rock, and the law on the heart....
which the one with MUCH grace has stars, a rock, the law, A believing family they are born into, Many churches to join or just go hear the Gospel, can hear radio and see TV stations preaching the gospel, people going door to door sharing Gods love, Playing as a kid with believers asking you to come to church, working along side of believes, seeing ads placed in papers.."Come Hear Good Preaching "as as well.
So...if we take your view. Does one have MUCH grace..and the other have less grace? yes or no?
Jarthur001
Active Member
Not really....For then the Bible is trying to trick us when it says.....webdog said:
How shall they HEAR when they have no preacher. What Paul should have said was...wait on the rocks.
Brother Bob
New Member
If you don't want to take the Scripture I gave you of Titus:2, then lets use your "rock". Either way, he hears the Gospel.
The saving Grace? is there a difference?
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