No one in Acts was born again. You cannot produce one text in Acts saying they were.No verse can be presented showing that.
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Predestination unto salvation
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George Antonios
Well-Known Member
You brethren keep reading this as if to be conformed to the image of his Son (Rom.8:29) means "to obtain eternal life". It doesn't mean that at all. Paul defined his own terms.
He is saying that every believer has been predetermined of God to obtain a resurrection body like unto the Son's resurrection body.
Brethren, that's how Paul himself defined Romans 8:29.I have never met a real Calvinist that even hints at such an unbiblical idea. I have not met every person but have traveled to many Calvinist church nationwide and all find such an idea preposterous.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
I did not only argue from absence, I also laid out a case. See table in above post #82.
Nonsense. Your supplied meanings are foolishness .Paul did not patch together those meanings,you or someone else did.
I will deal with it in a few hours.
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George Antonios
Well-Known Member
What pontifical pronouncement! We await your wise words most anxiously, and tremble.
I will deal with your table shortly. Produce one text in Acts that says anyone in Acts was born from above in the meantime.
I doubt that you want an answer but I will supply one.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was FALLEN upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Evidently, the Holy Ghost (Acts 8:17) had now FALLEN (Acts 8:16) - from where? from below? No, from above!
[And that's the new birth according to Christ himself: that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (Jn.3:6).]
[And again, I did not argue only from absence when it came to predestination. I presented a case]
The text does not say they were born again.
You cannot produce a text in Acts saying anyone was born again. That is the same as your suggestion about election.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
The fact that you conveniently ignored your second wording of the matter, "born FROM ABOVE" which I here adduce:
proves that your request was met. That's why you reverted to your original wording.
Now, I await your wise correction of the table in post #82. And tremble yet.
You still did not supply any text saying anothen. born again/ born from above
Thanks. That was also my understanding but not being Reformed I did not feel comfortable stating it (and would never have found the reference).
Now you have.
Why do you believe @Reformed beleif that election is both corporate and individual is so preposterous and unbiblical?
It makes sense to me. If the Church (the "elect") is not God's chosen people, if God truly has no Elect, but deals with people individually only then how do you explain the "Bride" or what has been discussed as the "Church" in terms of Reformed theology?
that is the main view, way, have heard it expressed in regards to Corporate Election, and that to me is not what Calvinists would hold!
I was addressing it as viewed/held by likes of Leighton Ford and robert Shanks...
Oh. My point is that while some will hold that corporate election excludes individual election most of these are people who hold one view at exclusion of the other.
Scripture speaks of God corporately choosing (electing) a nation and a people. Spurgeon (apparently another Calvinist @Iconoclast has not encountered) very strongly supported the Church as corporately elected (or chosen) as God's particular possession (in the sermon "Choice Portions").
My view is God chooses both a people and people (a flock and sheep). The Church is God's chosen people (God's Elect) which is made up of people who can look back at their election (as @Reformed states, their "call") as God choosing them. It is both a belonging to a larger group and individually personal.
That's how I view it anyway.
You're hard put to separate 'lost' from 'lost sheep' in the gospels. No where that I'm aware does 'lost' equate to 'non-elect' or 'hell bound'.
But, to hoi polloi, 'saved' means bound for heaven and 'lost' means bound for hell.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
The very nature of the disagreement (not the mere presence of the disagreement) among Calvinists is a fitting illustration of the fact that Calvinism is a human philosophy. I'm a former Calvinist who read the scriptures for years with those philosophical lenses until I was taught to let the Bible define its own terms, my friends.
the big difference is though that individual elecetion is before corporate election, as God selects who are to be in the Church based upon His will, while traditional corporate election states God elects the Body first, and then we choose to get in or not...
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