"Predestined According to the Purpose of Him Who Works all things According to the Counsel of His Will", Ephesians 1:11.

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair



Actually it does. How could it happen if He didnt create them ? Who is the first cause of someone being created into existence ?

So you have now confirmed that for you God is the actual author of all the sin and evil that we see in the world.

Not a biblical view but it is one that you have alluded to more than once.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

You are the only one who gives Arminians, and people like myself also who are not Arminians,
You all say, in affect, "Jesus 'did something' that returned all of Mankind back to having a NATURE AS EFFECTIVE AS ADAM'S SINLESS NATURE
where you are 'Given the 'Choice' to Touch the Tree of Life the same as the opportunity Adam had, and the opportunity to Touch The Tree of Life is offered now as a 'Gift' in the form of some other person asking, "do you want to?"; "do you want to go to Heaven when you die?", or "you'd rather go to Heaven instead of burn in The Lake of Fire forever, wouldn't you?"

Yes or No question people: "Will you accept my offer of The Free Gift of Eternal Life?"

The answer is as plain as the nose on your face, unless you're exhibiting exceptional capabilities toward proving you are Totally Depraved.

It never hurts to ask.

"You don't want to go to Hell do you?" Of course not; then Sign Here.

You're in there.

A lot less messy than talking about blood evidence of some kind or suggesting your friends and family, or other people, are Hell bound sinners.

Do you know any more Brainchild Inventions that could have Saved God from having Given His Only Begotten Son".

any kind of recognition for willing ourselves to God.

You will your preference as to where you'll be spending an Eternity, to the One Who Controls the Entire Universe and let Him know to move over, you made your 'Choice' as to whether you go to Heaven when you die, or not. Your call. Worshipping your brilliant ingenious wisdom.

In your head only, unfortunately.

It is "assailment-by-entailment"

"do not impute to others beliefs you regard as logically entailed by their beliefs but that they explicitly deny (paraphrase)". from: A New Name For An Old Fallacy: "Assailment-by-Entailment"

Sounds good but doesn't factor in the high propensity for folks to 'explicitly deny' what they say they don't believe, until you read their next post and then, there it is, back for an encore, where it never left before they just simply lied about what they really believe to avoid a boo boo hurt .

and it is a waste of time accusing me of something that I don't believe.

I doubt it. Just like you doubt nearly every Scripture you read
and have to give us 'what it really says' along with redefining basic words with a twist.

It's a waste of time telling us what you pretend to believe, when you'd have to rewrite an entire Bible the opposite of the one we have.

They are involved later

Hey, Ben1445, that's why a couple of the words used to describe what is 'involved later', begin with "Pre-" and "Fore-".

Are you trying to be funny and make a mockery of God?

People who give glory to God are not exclusively Calvinist.

Calvinist confess who and what they are and where they stand before God, as Law-Breaking Immoral Doomed sinners
who have Infinitely OFFENDED The One and Only Living, Holy, Just and Eternal Creator and God of the Universe,
who's Just Punishment would be to Suffer Forever in The Burning Lake of Hell Fire and Brimstone.

Others, on the street, say, "that's O.K., it don't matter". "If you can pick tomatoes, you can pick to go to Heaven".

"Hurry, though, before He Comes Back. And tells you different".

This is a logical fallacy that only Calvinists give God the glory for their salvation.

"God is a Spirit: and they that Worship Him must Worship Him in Spirit and in Truth".

You say that you give yourself a Birth from Heaven to Obtain a Divine Spirit with which you Possess the NATURE of God, Who is Spirit,
so that you are able to take hold of Spiritual Life, even though you're Dead as a Rock in your actual SIN-CURSED NATURE, WHICH CAN ONLY SIN.

It would help you to carry on a respectable conversation

Stop bad-mouthing the poor old munk, John Calvin.

He went to a lot of trouble assembling The Doctrines of Grace, from whatever research sources he had besides The Bible.

He didn't care for them being called 'Calvinism', when they are 'The Eternal Wisdom and Whole Counsel of God".

if you did not have so many preconceived ideas about who you are talking to.

You try to exalt man about the Thone of God.

We trust Jesus for salvation the same as you.

Nope.

We recognize that God gave us a choice

That's where you are Infinitely, Eternally, For All Duration, Incorrect.

That's why God never talks about it or says that is the way it is.

It is not.

Jesus is the Savior.

There is no God that Exists Who says "God Gave us a Choice".

That's Heresy. Died in the Wool. Bona fide, Pure, In-Stage. Every day.

and you don't.

You haven't shown me where I missquoted you.

that doesn't make the plan of salvation different.

One Plan of Salvation is for Hell Bound sinners under the Wrath of God, helpless, hopeless, undone, without strength,

and The Other Gospel is for souls who think it would be better to take a Ticket to Heaven, who God has the Exclusive Characteristic of Loving them, who simply help themselves to a gift they are offer which has to do with where they are going to go when they die, they think, and THEY HELP THEMSELVES TO THE GLORIES OF AN ETERNAL HEAVEN IN THE AFTERLIFE, by doing what they have to, when they just that whim to deside that would be smart of them, and pull themselves up by the straps that are attached to their boots. Who wouldn't?

it makes our views different.

Views, Plans, and the possibility of Salvation could all be different. Dunno.

“according to the Counsel of His Will.” = “before the foundation of the world”
(Exegesis: I apologize since this one will require some thought on your part, unlike the rest of your request that
just requires a willingness to admit the obvious … clearly “the Counsel of God’s Will” makes predestination
100% God’s choice … that is self-evident. ”WHEN” becomes a matter that requires some thought. Does
God change? Does God’s plan change? Does God learn new things? Does God adjust His plan and His
Will based on outside forces controlling Him? … NO! Emphatically, to all of them. Therefore, the Will of God
is as immutable as His other characteristics. That places the Counsel of His Will fixed in eternity past and
unchanged in eternity future. God’s Will is God’s immutable will … so it WAS “before the foundation of
the world”.)

Wonderful work of Exegesis, atpollard.

To argue, "NO! Emphatically, to all of them. Therefore, the Will of God is as immutable as His other characteristics", is perfect. Beautiful Worship!!

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

They are actually dictionary definitions that actually exist

What you are confessing here is that you have unearthed a secular definition, related to the words, "Elect", "Predestinate", etc.,
that almost seemingly allow you to bend and twist the verses they are in, into a pretzel.

Definitions of Bible Words are defined by their context and usage in The Bible, not from a dictionary of man
with, quite possibly, new and modern 'definitions' added to accommodate "free will"- fake and phony frauds.

Nobody is worshipping man.

You say somewhere that there is 'a choice' given. Where does it say that?

Sinners are given 'a choice' by you, which gives them credit for 'Choosing' the preferred of two 'Choices'.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

You are a drama queen.

Your bright ideas which try to reduce God down to

I use words with commonly accepted meanings

I believe in teaching Scripture and doing it faithfully to the intended meaning of the Author.

You have done everything but call my interpretation of Scripture, which is not privately held, heretical.

No man is ever able on his own to come to God. So God commended His love toward us. While we were sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 5:6
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

God has offered salvation to all mankind, not just some of mankind.

It is of their own choosing.

They refuse the gift that has been offered to all.

What God has not elected to save us and forgive us and restore us to the Garden of Eden or leave us resurrected to live eternally in this world. He has elected us to also be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. We have been chosen to be heirs with Him, not only an inheritance of His. Not only to be freed from sin but to be like Him. To be made just like Him. To be made the children of God.

How you see man getting any glory out of God’s gift of salvation is beyond my comprehension.

(If you want to talk about what doesn't make sense we can talk about God calling the people he already has a relationship with before they existed and before the world was made.)

Save yourselves from this untoward generation

You're going to tell me that there is something here that they were instructed to "save" themselves from, besides, "this untoward generation".

I won't misquote him as you often do me

Show me once...

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Save yourselves from this untoward generation

You're going to tell me that there is something here that they were instructed to "save" themselves from, besides, "this untoward generation".

I won't misquote him as you often do me

Show me once...

 

[Silverhair]

You're going to tell me that there is something here that they were instructed to "save" themselves from, besides, "this untoward generation".



Show me once...

I will say one thing for you Alan, you do seem very proud of that man-made religion who's foundation is based on pagan philosophy brought into the church in the 4th century by Augustine.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF you post many verses that I do not respond to because they have naught to do with the discussion.

By not responding to Rom 13:11 does not mean I disagree the saints glorification. That is just you once again reading to words what you want to find.

Like I said you ignored it. The saints Glorification is another phase of their Salvation yet to be experienced, and you scoffed

 

[Brightfame52]

So you have now confirmed that for you God is the actual author of all the sin and evil that we see in the world.

Not a biblical view but it is one that you have alluded to more than once.

How could someone do something if they didnt have being ? So did God know all about the evil that would be in the world if He created it ? Did He foresee it all or was caught by surprised ?

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

So you must also hold to the view that those predestined to hell have no choice in the matter.

They dont, it was Gods choice that He created them as vessels of wrath and fitted them for destruction Rom 9 deals with that

 

[Silverhair]

Like I said you ignored it. The saints Glorification is another phase of their Salvation yet to be experienced, and you scoffed

You have yet to show me the text where I dismissed the glorification of the saints.

What you are doing some would lying BF.

 

[Silverhair]

How could someone do something if they didnt have being ? So did God know all about the evil that would be in the world if He created it ? Did He foresee it all or was caught by surprised ?

So you are now confirming that your version of God is the creator of the evil and sin.

That's not the God of the bible but must be the one of your religion.

 

[Ben1445]

You're going to tell me that there is something here that they were instructed to "save" themselves from, besides, "this untoward generation".



Show me once...

When you apply something I say to mean something else, you make my statement to say what it is not intended to say.
I have never claimed anything of God’s glory for myself or anyone who accepts a gift from God.


Because of the pre- and fore- there has to be a later. That’s logical. When the later is, is evident in Romans 8.

“Not of him that willeth” shows will on the part of the sinner that takes no glory for salvation.

I’ll leave you to your drama after this. If you don’t want to consider what is being said, and the best you can do is call me a liar, I won’t waste time with you.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair



They dont, it was Gods choice that He created them as vessels of wrath and fitted them for destruction Rom 9 deals with that

So your god has chosen who will go to hell and made them just for that reason.

The God of the bible said He desires all to come to repentance. So your god and the God of the bible cannot be the same God.

 

[Brightfame52]

You have yet to show me the text where I dismissed the glorification of the saints.

What you are doing some would lying BF.

I showed you and you still in denial

 

[Brightfame52]

So your god has chosen who will go to hell and made them just for that reason.

The God of the bible said He desires all to come to repentance. So your god and the God of the bible cannot be the same God.

Yes God made some people for hell, to punish them for their sins, and He made some people for mercy and eternal glory Rom 9

 

[Charlie24]

Absolutely CORRECT!!

What is entirely missing in The Bible is "the free will to choose".


Absolutely CORRECT!!

According if you know how to read what you actually wrote.

You, sir, are a Calvinist.

Far from a Calvinist. I see a plan chosen before the foundation of the world for whosoever will believe Him, to be conformed in the image of Christ.

Unlike the Calvinist that was hand picked for salvation without any choice, I'm one one of the whosoever will's that chose to believe the Gospel when I heard it.

 

[Charlie24]

Has there been anyone who said anything about, "being saved before the foundation of the world"?

Ask BF.

 

[Brightfame52]

Far from a Calvinist. I see a plan chosen before the foundation of the world for whosoever will believe Him, to be conformed in the image of Christ.

Unlike the Calvinist that was hand picked for salvation without any choice, I'm one one of the whosoever will's that chose to believe the Gospel when I heard it.

Do you believe in the truths of Tulip? That's part of the Gospel of God's Grace?

 

[Charlie24]

Here you go;
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Before the world began....
or here;
Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

Before God created man He knew man would fall. He created a plan in which fallen man could come back to Him in fellowship.

Man freely chose to disobey God, proof that man has free will to choose God's way or his own way.

Predestination is man being chosen for this plan to be redeemed and conformed in the image of Christ.

But only the man who chooses to believe and obey Christ is chosen for this plan.

 

[Brightfame52]

Before God created man He knew man would fall. He created a plan in which fallen man could come back to Him in fellowship.

Man freely chose to disobey God, proof that man has free will to choose God's way or his own way.

Predestination is man being chosen for this plan to be redeemed and conformed in the image of Christ.

But only the man who chooses to believe and obey Christ is chosen for this plan.

So did God know who would not choose Him and end up in hell , even b4 He created them ?