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Predestined to what?

StefanM

StefanM

Well-Known Member
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Curious

I'm curious about everyone's take on this verse.

2 Thess. 2:13 (KJV) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
 
webdog

webdog

Active Member
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4His_glory said:
Amen and amen.:thumbs: I don't know why so many people are so strongly opposed to the doctrine of election when it is so clear in the Scritpures and it brings great joy to the redeemed! Just thinking on the fact that God knew me before He even created the world and chose that I would know Him through salvation in Christ is a cause for great joy and a reason to explode into vibrant worship!
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Sounds awfully boastful to me. Do you share this same "great joy" that God has passed over a loved one and "explode with joy" knowing that they were not predestined for Heaven, making them predestined to Hell?
 
2

2BHizown

New Member
Maybe it's because those who do think that to believe God has the absolute sovereign right to be merciful and compassionate to those whom He wants to be merciful and compassionate with makes one an arrogant, heretical, prideful infidel, while they are the true "Enlightened Ones" who understand God's mercy and compassion based on their response to Him.
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Oh mercy, please forgive if you meant that for me! I only learned of the doctrines of grace 5 yrs ago and as today is my 75th birthday you can see I found this truth quite late in life. Trust me, No one could be more thankful or grateful to our Lord for bringing me to Himself. Grateful yes, arrogant, I certainly hope not! When you're zeal runs high and you know how wonderful the truths of His word are you so want everyone else to know it also! That He ever showed this to me at all is the greatest wonder of the ages and I most humbly thank Him forever! God bless!
 
B

Brother Bob

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Oh mercy, please forgive if you meant that for me! I only learned of the doctrines of grace 5 yrs ago and as today is my 75th birthday you can see I found this truth quite late in life. Trust me, No one could be more thankful or grateful to our Lord for bringing me to Himself. Grateful yes, arrogant, I certainly hope not! When you're zeal runs high and you know how wonderful the truths of His word are you so want everyone else to know it also! That He ever showed this to me at all is the greatest wonder of the ages and I most humbly thank Him forever! God bless!
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The Lord was cutting it close for you when the life span is 3 score and 10. :)


2 Thess. 2:13 (KJV) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
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Well, I know what others will say but for me, its telling us how we would be saved, as I have highlighted, as you can see it still take "belief of the truth".
 
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2

2BHizown

New Member
belief in the truth

Of course it takes belief in the truth! But why and how does that come to us except by His mercy and grace!
He does all things well! I just thank Him! I was chosen before the foundation of the world but that doesnt declare a set time that I should come to Him. I come when He beckons and I respond to the truth of His call to my heart!
Soli deo gloria!
God is sovereign but man is responsible and accountable! Both are true!
 
B

Brother Bob

New Member
2 Thess. 2:13 (KJV) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
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The choice is how He has chosen you to Salvation. Emphasis on "how". (santification of the Spirit and "belief" of the truth.
 
2

2BHizown

New Member
dead in sin

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherin in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
v4But God who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sin, hath quickened us together with Christ,(for by grace we are saved;)

Thats me, thankfully!!
 
StefanM

StefanM

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Baffled

How can the focus of the verse be on the "how" (which is debatable...the verse never says that the belief of the truth is the cause for the choice) when the main verb concerns the choice of God?
 
B

Brother Bob

New Member
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherin in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
v4But God who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sin, hath quickened us together with Christ,(for by grace we are saved;)
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That fits all of who have been born again for "how could He quicken someone who was already alive".

The problem with Calvinist doctrine is it does not align with the teachings of Jesus and when it is against "God so loved the world" and "whosoever will" and "whosoever is athirst". If it does not align with those Scriptures then you need to start over with your studies.
 
StefanM

StefanM

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As far as scripture goes,

Would you mind explaining the doctrine of election as you see it? Election is in the Bible, so you can't just avoid it.
 
B

Brother Bob

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Quote:
2 Thess. 2:13 (KJV) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:


The choice is how He has chosen you to Salvation. Emphasis on "how". (santification of the Spirit and "belief" of the truth.
How can the focus of the verse be on the "how" (which is debatable...the verse never says that the belief of the truth is the cause for the choice) when the main verb concerns the choice of God?
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Because if you will look closely at the end of the Scripture is "belief". Therefore, it still comes down to what Jesus said: "except you believe that I am He, ye shall die in your sins and where I am you cannot come". It must align with what Jesus taught or it is just wrong!!
 
StefanM

StefanM

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No one is denying the necessity of faith, Brother Bob. But you have completely avoided the implication of the verse.

What does it mean when Paul said "he has chosen you"?
 
B

Brother Bob

New Member
StefanM;
I am not trying to be difficult. Its just I believe strongly that the Scripture has to align with what Jesus taught and that includes Revelations also of which many take several strange directions and forget about how Jesus said the end of time will be.
The Scripture you quoted of Eph if I read it without knowing what Jesus said I could see it your way or mine for I think if you will be frank with me what I am saying that was chosen the "you" is those who believed Christ, and the "how" is what was chosen is how "you" will be saved.
 
StefanM

StefanM

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The sanctification and belief in this verse refer to the "how" of salvation--I won't dispute that. However, it does not flow grammatically to say that sanctification and belief refer to the choice of God.

It flows this way:

God has chosen you (A)---to salvation (B)---through sanctification and faith (C)

The logical flow of the verse is this:

A leads to B which is accomplished through C

The grammar does not allow:

C accomplishes B, which determines A
 
B

Brother Bob

New Member
God has chosen you (A)---to salvation (B)---through sanctification and faith (C)
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I agree 100%. Where we differ is you think the person was chosen then and I am saying the person is chosen when he believes through sanctification and faith which was chosen then.
 
StefanM

StefanM

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I'm responding to your most recent post now, Brother Bob. I think you have confused me with someone else. I never referenced Ephesians.

As far as 2 Thess. 2:13 goes, the direct object of "he has chosen" is "you." It is in the Greek accusative case (which is the most common case used for the direct object, and which would be expected with a verb such as this one). The remaining words in the verse are in prepositional phrases. To interpret the phrases as being the direct object would defy pretty much all grammatical sense.
 
B

Brother Bob

New Member
StephanM:
Could I ask you a personal question? Do you ever wrassle with trying to justify your take on Eph and Romans with what Jesus said in the Gospels?
 
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